Fallen heavenly angels theories

[composer]

Part 2.
Composer responds: Now as we all know the Book of Revelation is complex in respect to the other Bible Books.

Now ‘why’ is it more complex?

Because it is a Book of ‘signs and symbols’ i.e.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John: 2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. 3 Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time [is] at hand. (Rev. 1:1 - 3) KJV

NB: signified it. Meaning signs.

Not only that, I quoted Rev. 1:1 - 3 to demonstrate also that ALL the EVENTS of the Book of revelation are a PROPHECY (vs. 1, 3)

Now we must ask ourselves, Hmm, when did John record these visions etc.

Answer AD 96 (approx.)

Therefore ALL the EVENTS of the Book of Revelation are a prophecy of what will take place AFTER AD. 96.

.** . . things which must shortly come to pass . . . ** (Rev. 1: 1) KJV

. . . the words of **this prophecy . . . **,

Therefore before we can even get any further we realise now that this 'war in heaven (Rev, 12: 7) and your quote: Rev. 12:8 - 9 are EVENTS that only take place AFTER AD.96. (approx.) and NEVER BEFORE AD. 96. (approx.)

So I shall ‘guess’ as far as the RCC understanding goes, or what you have been ‘misled’ to believe is that this is when your RCC satan was evicted and its alleged band of followers went with it?

But we now see that this war (according to RCC teachings) against God only took place AFTER AD. 96? (approx.)

So many questions arise?

e.g. You now have two (2) sets of fallen heavenly angels, i.e. 1 set before AD, 96 and another set evicted AFTER AD. 96? (approx.)

2 RCC satans, 2 RCC devils, 2 RCC sets of demons etc.

1. Where did your RCC fallen heavenly angels come from before AD. 96?

Even if we hypothesise that any part of this RCC scenario is true then we must ask -

1. **What Scriptural evidence (not empty conjecture or contradiction of Scripture) ** do the RCC have to demonstrate that their alleged evil ‘satan’ the fallen heavenly angel being, would be allowed into God’s heavenly domain for any reason, let alone to wage a war against God?
2. That this ‘war in heaven’ is actually talking about or refering to God’s Heavenly domain?
   (a stupid question you might retort but wait and see)
3. As your alleged ‘satan’ being was going to have a war against God, why did it evict its own army out just before it needed them? I refer of course to: -

And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: . . . (Rev. 12: 4) KJV

(1/3rd part is inferred by orthodoxy to be referring to the 1/3rd of the heavenly angels of course that decided to join this naughty satan the RCC fallen heavenly angel being)

In fact, why would it evict its own army at all?

1. What are the RCC followers taught to believe about the Serpent of Eden?

a) Is it said to be ‘the same’ as this RCC satan being? i.e. ‘in disguise?’
b) Is it separate from this RCC satan and only say ‘manipulated’ or ‘used’ the serpent for its wicked purpose(s)?
c) other teaching?**

 

[tdandh26]

Dear Composer,

Have you ever read “The City of God” by St. Augustine? He deals very clearly with this old concept that you assume to be new. I will not even try to dissuade you from your opinion, but I would suggest most humbly if I may, that you read this book. Then, if you are truely seeking truth, come back and let me hear your defense against Augustines teachings.

Also just curious but, how do you deal with detailed descriptions of Satan appearing to Jesus and the numerous excorcisms Jesus did, not to mention at least 1/3 of Christs teachings were about the reality of damnation.

 

[composer]

Whilst we await a response from Dr. Colossus may I add: -

Thank you tdandh26 for your referral to The City of God" by St. Augustine.

As you have obviously read it you should be able to quite easily refute what I show if Dr. Colossus bows out at some stage as I keep saying I can not respond to everyone as it is too time consuming repeating everything ad-nauseum.

If however you wish to contact me privately and give me the evidence to refute me from your Book you are most welcome, meanwhile here I shall stick with Dr. Colossus who kindly offered to take the time to discuss with me.

My personal email is: franjac@tadaust.org.au

Thanks

 

[JoeyWarren]

After going over the concordance about the word “Satan”, I have to come to the defense of Composer.

In Hebrew, the primary definition is “Adversary”
likewise
In Greek, the primary definition is “Adversary”

So if every instance of the word “Satan” was replaced with “Adversary”,

1 Chronicles 21:1-2 And Satan stood up against Israel,

becomes

1 Chronicles 21:1-2 And an Adversary stood up against Israel,

compared against

2 Samuel 24:1-2 1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel

Adversary = Lord

The Lord became an adversary against Israel.

then Composer’s statement becomes true.

Interesting.

 

[composer]

Oh thank you JoeyWarren,

That is fantastic.

My heart leaped with joy to see you doing as God commands.

Don’t just blindly accept what I say 'check it out yourself as the early Bereans did -

And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming [thither] went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 **These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily , whether those things were so. ** (Acts 17:10 - 11) KJV

I am NOT trying to trick or con anyone.

I am dealing with God’s precious Words here and do my UTMOST to explain what I have discovered and wish to share with any who ‘have an ear’ to listen.

I applaud your research and Pray I can impart God’s Word to you and all who will listen to a greater understanding.

As you deduced so well simply insert ADVERSARY / ENEMY / OPPOSER instead of the Term ‘Satan’ and the meanings take on a whole new world of much clearer understanding as to what is going on on each scenario.

I trust we can investigate many of them as we go?

Thank you again for simply doing some homework and research.

 

[composer]

May I also add that this ‘satan’ can also be a goody?

If say you were about to commit suicide and I came along and saw you on the verge of say 'jumping off a cliff to your certain death and I interfered and stopped you by say 'grabbibg you away from the edge, then I would be your Satan or put another way, I would be acting as your ADVERSARY / OPPOSER because I was preventing you / opposing what you were intending or trying to do.

Whether I was right or wrong to OPPOSE your intent, in your eyes or estimation is not the issue. The meaning of the term Satan is as we have discovered means simply an ADVERSARY / ENEMY / OPPOSER Good oe Bad, Male or Female or even Neuter Gender.

In this hypothetical case the Satan / OPPOSER is actually a goody (in my mind)

I say this just to try to give a better understanding of how the term Satan can be used.

Even the term ‘demons’ referred to ‘unknown little spirit beings’ that brought fame and fortune or disaster, sickness and death. This is what many believed regarding things they really had no answers for at the time. Epilepsy, Schizophrenia to mention a couple for now.

If I got sick and the doctors could not diagnose it many said "oh the evil demons caused “it” or conversely if I won Lotto many would say “Oh the lucky demons have favoured him”

Thanks

 

[JoeyWarren]

LOL, Don’t get too excited. This is a long war, you have just won just one battle of many.

You still have to battle your argument of “Evil Spirts” or as the KJV and DR call them “Devils”.

Otherwise, to support my defense of Composer, Israel may have been the Chosen people, but God on several occasion had to teach Israel many lessons…in order to teach these lessons…God had to temporarily become the adversary against his chosen…some instances are explicit…others are implicit…

 

[composer]

Oh please let me get a little excited.

It was I who initially said “it is a long haul” so I agree with you it is but the first step. But hey! it was great and positive step to start our journey with!

In God’s Love to all

 

[Celtic_Son]

I would have no part in this! It is against what I know in my heart to be true. Not even for the sake of conversation.

 

[Pryority7]

As much as this translation says this and that, the truth is that the Catholic Church, being the only True Church for the last 2,000 years and founded by Jesus Christ Himself, teaches the reality of Satan and demons as fallen angels who seek the ruin of us all.
The Devil’s greatest trick laid out on us all is the notion that he does not exist.
How funny what this thread is all about…who is being decieved by whom?
Is it the Catholic Church that has been deceitful for the last 2,000 years teaching this thing we call the Devil, Satan, and other names, or is it the teachings of one Composer who’s teachings are based on something not founded by Christ?
Hmmmmm? Let me guess here…
The only question I have is why does Composer have such a serious problem with the existence of Devils and evil spirits and the like? Why is their non-existence so important to you?
P7

 

[Pryority7]

Do you believe angels exist?

If so, why is it hard to believe that some of these angels chose to rebel against God the same way us humans did?
I know I’m making it sound like a requirement of free will is rebellion. That it is inevitable that a creature with free will will rebel, but that’s not what I am saying.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Hebrews 1:14
Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

Frankly, Composer I am not following your Rev 12 being 96 AD, please explain it.

Luke 10:18
He replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

saw is past tense?

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Daniel Marsh:

Job 4
15Then **a spirit ** passed before my face; the hair of my flesh stood up: 16It stood still, but I could not discern the form thereof: an image was before mine eyes, there was silence, and I heard a voice, saying, 17Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker? 18Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly

:
Behold, he puts no trust in his servants. He charges his angels with error. (WEB)

Did you respond to this yet?

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

How does a mere human being fullfill this?

Ezekiel 28

11 The word of the LORD came to me: 12 "Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:
" 'You were the model of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

13 You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
ruby, topaz and emerald,
chrysolite, onyx and jasper,
sapphire, turquoise and beryl.
Your settings and mountings were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.

14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.

**15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created **
till wickedness was found in you.

16 Through your widespread trade
you were filled with violence,
and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
and I expelled you, O guardian cherub,
from among the fiery stones.

17 Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
So I threw you to the earth;
I made a spectacle of you before kings.

18 By your many sins and dishonest trade
you have desecrated your sanctuaries.
So I made a fire come out from you,
and it consumed you,
and I reduced you to ashes on the ground
in the sight of all who were watching.

19 All the nations who knew you
are appalled at you;
you have come to a horrible end
and will be no more.’ "

Hebrews 1:7
In speaking of the angels he says, “He makes his angels winds, his servants flames of fire.”

The Doctrine of Satan
I. The Existence of Satan

A. Seven Old Testament books and every New Testament writer refer to Satan.

B. Jesus referred to Satan (Matt.13:39; Luke 10:18; 11:18).

II. The Personality and Names of Satan

A. Personality – He has intellect (2 Cor.11:3), emotions (Rev.12:17) and will (2 Tim.2:26.

B. Names – He is called Satan, the Devil (slanderer), Lucifer (son of the morning), Beelzebub (Lord of the flies – Matt.12:24), and Belial (lawless – 2 Cor.6:15), the evil one (1 John 5:19), the tempter (1 Thess.3:5), the prince of this world (John 12:31), the god of this age (2 Cor.4:4), the prince of the power of the air (Eph.2:2), the accuser of the brethren (Rev.12:10), and angel of light (false light – 2 Cor.11:14), a serpent (Rev.12:9), and a dragon (Rev.12:3).

III. The Nature of Satan

A. He is a created angelic being. He was created as part of the angelic realm (Eph.6:11,12; Ezek.24:18) and was the highest in rank of them all (Ezek.28:12-14).

B. He is an enemy of righteousness. He is a murderer (John 8:44), a liar (John 8:44), and accuser (Rev.12:10) and our adversary (1 Pet.5:8).

C. He is a limited creature. He is limited by God (Job.1:12). He is not God’s equal (1 John 4:4). He is not omniscient, omnipotent or infinite in any way. Believers with God’s help can resist him (James 4:7).

IV. The Fall of Satan

Key Passages – Ezekiel 28; Isaiah 14

A. Ezekiel 28:11-19 is a prophetic lamentation over the “King of Tyre” who is described in language that fits Satan’s fall and not a mere human king. Satan is distinguished form the human ruler of Tyre in 28:2 (“prince/ruler”) and called a “king” in 28:12 (Not even Israel’s rulers were called “King”). Though Tyre had a human “ruler”, Satan was the real “King” behind that wicked kingdom.

B. His attributes – Moral perfection (v.12) Sinless at his creation until his fall (v.15)

C. His appearance – Perfect in beauty (v.12b,13)

1. His privileges – Free access to the garden of Eden (v.12) and to God’s holy mountain (= God’s presence – v.14)

1. His rank – “Cherub” (vs.14,16)

1. His judgment –

a. Cast out of the mountain of God (v.16, cf. Rev12:4)

b. Cast to the ground (v.17)

c. Consumed by fire (v.18, cf. Rev.20:10)

D. Isaiah 14:12-15 also seems to describe Satan’s fall. Satan is manifest here by the king of Babylon. As in Ezekiel 28, Satan is pictured here as the real “king” behind the wicked human kingdom of Babylon.

1. The imagery of a “star” and “falling from heaven” (v.12) suggests a supernatural fulfillment. “Stars” (v.12,13) are symbolic of the angelic realm elsewhere (Job 38:6,7; Rev.12:4).

1. The five “I will’s” of vss. 13 & 14 are literally true of Satan and only metaphorically true of Babylon’s king. This ultimate form of pride (“I will be like the Most High” – v.14) fits the New Testament description of Satan’s fall 1 Tim.3:6.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

V. The Activity of Satan

Satan is seeking to oppose God’s plan by promoting evil in every way possible.

A. Indirect Activity – He works indirectly through the world (in which he has great freedom and power – John 12:31; 1 John 5:19) and the flesh (Gal.5:19-21). The world, the flesh and the devil are not three separate enemies of the Christian. Rather Satan works through the evil world system (1 John 2:13-15) to exploit the fleshly nature that still wars within us (Rom.7:18; Gal.5:19-21).

B. Direct Activity – He works directly by deception, temptation, attack and possession.

1. In Christ’s ministry

a. He tempted Christ (Matt.4:1-11).

b. He attempted to thwart Christ’s work (John 8:44; Matt.16:23; Luke 22:31).

c. He possessed Judas to accomplish the betrayal (John 13:27).

1. In unbelievers

a. He blinds their minds to hinder their understanding of the gospel (2 Cor.4:4).

b. When the gospel is heard or understood, he tries to hinder its effect (Luke 8:12).

c. He uses persecution (Rev.2:10) and false religions (Rev.2:13) to hinder the effect of the gospel.

1. In believers

a. He tempts believers (to pride – 1 Chron.21:1-8; to materialism – John 2:15; James 5:1-7; to immorality – 1 Cor.7:5; to lie – Acts 5:3; to discouragement – 1 Pet.5:6-10; to be unforgiving – 2 Cor.2:10,11 etc.).

b. He hinders the ministries of believers (1 Thess.2:18; Rev.2:10).

c. He promotes false teaching among believers (1 John 4:1-4).

d. He promotes anger, bitterness and division (Eph.4:26,27; 2 Cor.2:5-11). Note: See the supplement – “Satanic Activity and Spiritual Warfare” for more information on how Satan and his demons work and how we must respond.

The Doctrine of Demons
I. The Existence and Nature of Demons

A. Their Creation – God created demons as part of the angelic realm originally (Col.1:16).

B. Their Fall –

1. The evidence – It is clear that Satan has a following of like beings (“Prince of the demons” – Matt.12:24; the Devil and his angels – Matt.25:41). Demons are described throughout the Scriptures (Dan.10:10-20; Matt.10:1; Eph.6:12).

1. The time – At the fall of Satan, many angels followed him in that rebellion (demons are fallen angels). A third of the angelic host seem to have fallen with Satan (Rev.12:4 – the imagery of Satan as a “dragon” and angels/demons as “stars”).

C. Their Nature –

1. Demons are by nature the same kind of spirit beings as angels. They are personal, intelligent beings.

1. Demons are morally wicked (“unclean spirits” – Matt.10:1; “evil” – Luke 7:21; “wickedness/darkness” – Eph.6:12).

a. They are deceitful (1 Tim.4:1-3; 2 Cor.11:13-15).

b. They are immoral (Gen.6:4; Jude 6,7).

1. Demons are invisible but also able to appear (Satan – Zech.3:1; Matt.4:9.10; Demons – Rev.9:7-10; 16:13-16).

1. Demons have great intelligence. They knew Christ’s identity and power (Mark 1:14,34; 5:6,7). They know their own future judgment (Matt.8:28,29). They can attempt to predict the future (Acts 16:16). They’re knowledge is not infinite. They learned it through thousands of years of experience and observation.

1. Demons have great strength (Mark 5:3; Acts 19:16; Rev.9:1-11).

II. The Activity of Demons

Demons are involved in carrying out Satan’s evil plans (2 Cor.11:15). What Satan is said to be doing (see above) is their work directly.

A. Demons promote idolatry (Lev.17:7; Deut.32:17; Ps.106:36-38). This activity is blatant in primitive cultures.

B. Demons are active in hindering the spiritual progress of believers every way they can (see Satan’s activities). They are deliberate and organized in these attempts (Eph.6:10-12).

C. Demons promote false teaching (1 Tim.4:1).

D. Demons can possess and afflict people (see supplement).

1. They cause physical ailments (dumbness – Matt.9:32,33; blindness – Matt.12:22; convulsions – Matt.17:15-18; Mark 9:20; self-injury – Mark 5:5; 9:22).

1. They cause mental disorders (withdrawal, nudity, filth, irrational behavior – Luke 8:27-29; suicidal mania – Mark 9:22).

1. They inflict problems upon believers as well, if allowed by God (Job’s troubles – Job 2:7-9; Paul’s “thorn in the flesh”: - 2 Cor.12:7).

E. Demons promote selfishness and division in the church (James 3:13-16).

Recommended Reading and References
Fred Dickason, Angels, Elect and Evil. Chicago: Moody Press, 1975.

bible.org/page.asp?page_id=388

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Revelation 20:2-3
V2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
V3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

1 John 3:8
He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work.