Fallen Priests and Sacraments

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annad347 said:
… Just because the people in charge of The Catholic church says its okay, for a priest who never repents to keep his ministry, doesn’t mean I have to accept it. …
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The teaching that Holy Orders leave an indelible mark on the soul is required belief, however jurisdiction can be denied by church law.

A doctrine proximate to the faith, is that for Baptism, the minister of it does not need to be in a state of grace.

For the Recipient:

It is a certain theological conclusion that is guaranteed to be true is that for Sacraments in the case of adult recipients, the intention of receiving the Sacrament is necessary for valid reception (Council of Trent). For example (does not include infants), forced baptism is invalid. Another example is that if one does not believe that the Body and Blood of Christ are being received, then that one does not validly receive.
 
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How would you know if a priest repented? He is not likely to post it on social media.
 
Gorgias said:
On the other hand, when you point to a sinner and declare him to be “constantly in a state of moral sin”
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First, I would never do that. Second, I couldn’t do that. Remember the part that said I would never know unless I was that person, they were constantly harming or they were harming someone I knew. If that was the case, I would know what type of person who called himself a priest is… so unless I’m the one he’s cutting with a knife, over and over and over and over, I wouldn’t know.
Gorgias said:
How would you know that he isn’t, such that you could reasonably declare him to be “in a constant state of mortal sin”?
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Because I use the words constant state of mortal sin you think I’m judging? Yet the OP is asking about fallen priest, that’s not considered judging? How is that not the same thing, two negative statement about someone we can never truly know about?

Maybe we need to make clear the definition of a fallen priest.

To me a fallen priest is someone who is always in sin. Someone who never repentance. Someone who never walks in the light. A priest who constantly turns from God. Constantly meaning never changing, without pause; unceasing, regularly recurrent. The total opposite of being in a constant state of prayer, worship, faithfulness, in His mercy and grace, loving God.

Maybe if I understand your definition of a fallen priest or the OP definition, I’d understand how our definitions are different.

I believe Peter repented his action, was sorry for denying God. Was full of the Holy Spirit Jesus breathed into him. Never denied him again and willingly died for him. Was not fallen. Maybe that’s my wishful thinking, reading into something there is no proof… I can live with that.

Those clergy who denied God to save their lives, repented their action. That’s what caused people to question whether or not they should be allowed to remain clergy. Whether or not they should have been allowed to stay, was not because they were considered fallen priest, but because of the families who had knew of those who were killed because they never denied God. They asked for forgiveness… so to me they were not fallen…or rather not in constant state of mortal sin. Again, maybe wishful thinking, reading into something there is no proof… I can live with that.

I do thrust God, but the idea I don’t have to or rather need to trust the person God has placed before me as a channel to Him is weird… so, I’ll just add that to the list of questions I have for God when He calls me home.

This is really opening my eyes, helping me understand the church I was baptized into as an infant… thank you.

Some poster think I don’t understand what you’re saying, I do.

I understand… but I don’t think you understand what I’m saying so if you can explain to me exactly what it means to be a fallen priest I might be able to understand better…

so please, explain to me, what’s a fallen priest?
 
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annad347 said:
I guess I don’t… but God willing, through the Holy Spirit and my faith in Jesus Christ, one day I will.
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Include a reading of a catechism in that list, please.

I’d suggest you read the Catechism of the council of Trent. It’s reader friendly and quite thorough in its explanation. This particular catechism is not arranged like a civil code book, but rather a regular book you sit down and read.

The Sacrament of Penance: pp. 165-191


or an online version at:
http://www.catholicapologetics.info/thechurch/catechism/Holy7Sacraments-Penance.shtml

It may not answer all your questions but it will certainly help you understand what you need to know about the Sacrament of Penance (Confession)
 
its 346 pages… will explain the definition of a fallen priest?

I understand what everyone is saying, but I don’t think anyone understands what I’m saying.
 
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annad347 said:
its 346 pages
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MiserereMeiDei said:
The Sacrament of Penance: pp. 165-191
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It’s not, and you need to learn a lot about the sacrament…and probably stop using the word fallen.

If you like, I’d be happy to try a hand at helping you understand as well. However, a prerequisite would be that we take one thing at a time and ensure you understand it before moving on to something else. Multiple questions and issues muddy the understanding.
annad347 said:
To me a fallen priest is someone who is always in sin. Someone who never repentance. Someone who never walks in the light. A priest who constantly turns from God. Constantly meaning never changing, without pause; unceasing, regularly recurrent. The total opposite of being in a constant state of prayer, worship, faithfulness, in His mercy and grace, loving God.
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As living human beings, we have two states:

We are either in a state of grace or we are not.

To be in a state of grace is to be in friendship with God and go to heaven when we die.
To not be in a state of grace is to be an enemy of God and go to hell when we die.

Fallen has no useful definition in this context.
 
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I didn’t, the OP did… in the title of the thread.

I said there was no such thing as a fallen priest… my understanding of a fallen priest is different from everyone else, which is why I asked for one.
 
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I know OP used it. It’s not a useful word though.

So the issue is a priest in a state of sanctifying grace or mortal sin. What would you like to know about a priest in a state of mortal sin. (one question/issue at a time though please) Or if there is another question, I’d be happy to answer that if I can.
 
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No the issue was really about a fallen priest.

l defined a fallen priest as some in a constant state of mortal sin, someone out of grace with God… my definiton must be different from everyone else,

I’m starting to realize that… so after so many post I’m finally asking for clarification of what defines a priest to be a fallen priest.

That’s what the OP asked about… so please, define a fallen priest for me.
 
annad347 said:
No the issue was really about a fallen priest.
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Which, as I have stated is not a useful term. This is because it lacks precision. Nevertheless, since you insist…
annad347 said:
my definiton must be different from everyone else,
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It is.
annad347 said:
l defined a fallen priest as some in a constant state of mortal sin, someone out of grace with God
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Someone in a state of constant mortal sin is simply a person in a state of mortal sin. It’s an either or. You are either in a state of sanctifying grace or you are not. How much you sin doesn’t change your state.

A person is in a state of sanctifying grace immediately after baptism. They remain in this state until they commit a grave sin with the knowledge that it is a sin and do so with full consent of the will. In doing so, they have committed a mortal sin and are no longer in a state of sanctifying grace. They will remain in this state until a proper act of penance is made. Once made, they will once again be in a state of sanctifying grace. If they never do so, when they die they will go to hell.
annad347 said:
so please, define a fallen priest for me.
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A fallen priest would be a priest who died in mortal sin. The responses to OP were made with the understanding that, fallen=out of grace. What OP meant is anyone’s guess and doesn’t really matter.
 
So a fallen priest is dead… which means he is no longer performing sacraments on anyone… thank you.

That’s all anyone had to say. Thank you again.
 
Obviously not OP’s intended meaning or how anyone reading OP’s post responded, but you know that. 😉

Were you really looking for answers? Because that answer should hardly clear anything up for you.
 
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MiserereMeiDei said:
Were you really looking for answers?
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I was trying to figure out why nobody understood what I was saying. All they had to say was a fallen priest is dead… hense no longer sinning.

So I stand corrected.
 
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They did understand you though. Nobody was replying with a dead priest in mind. You seem to be under the mistaken impression that being in a state of mortal sin while having an intent to go to confession places one in a different state than when one has no such intention. It does not.

It seems to me that you might feel that Catholicism should make sense to you according to your own sensibilities and what you learned from your time in protestant churches. It would be best to abandon both their teachings and your own understandings based on those teachings.
 
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No I was trying to understand why a fallen priest, whom I now know is a dead priest would be allowed to proform sacraments. Had I understood a fallen priest was dead, like actually dead I dont think I would have said anything.
 
But the question you have about what you thought was a fallen priest is what was actually answered by Gorgias and Tis_Bear. They never spoke about a dead priest. They only ever addressed your idea of a priest who maintains a state of mortal sin with no repentance.
 
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MiserereMeiDei said:
It seems to me that you might feel that Catholicism should make sense to you according to your own sensibilities and what you learned from your time in protestant churches.
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I started going to a Lutheran church about 2-3 weeks after I started going to a Catholic church…figure that one out.

and to be honest some of what they say doesnt make sense to me either… so hows that for mind blowing 🙂

Had someone said a fallen priest was a dead priest I doubt anything I said would have been said… cause that made sense.
 
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Sounds like a recipe for confusion. 🙃

I really do recommend you read that catechism linked above. It’s 100% error free, unless there are any typos. It’s more reliable than anything here.
 
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