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Gorgias
Guest
A different question, other than “what’s the definition of a fallen priest?”…?
If so, can you at least point to the post by its number, so we know what you’re looking for?
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If so, can you at least point to the post by its number, so we know what you’re looking for?
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Ilkka
Guest
I don’t know if anyone has posted this here or not but I will. These are the words of our Lord Jesus Christ when He spoke coming back to Jerusalem from Bethany while teaching His disciples and rebuking pharisees and scribes for their hypocrisy:
As we can see here, the problem with the scribes and pharisees was not that their teaching was in error or that their religion was invalid but that they themselves did not observe what they taught. If we draw a parallel from this Bible passage to your question, it would support the idea that the sacraments performed by validly ordained priests are valid regardless of the priest’s personal state of grace.
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annad347
Guest
Sorry thought it was obvious… guess not, my bad.
One of the points I tried to make to know that a priest was sinning, actually the only way to know is if he was hurting you directly with his sin. In that situation what happens, if the person involved only choices are to go the the priest, who hurting them, with their confession or just leave… no one ever addressed what happens in those situations… is the person who was hurt forgotten?
I now know this has nothing to do with your confession, he is just the channel, but what happens in those situations… what is the person suppose to do if there is no one to turn too?
Is someone taking care of those people?
One of the points I tried to make to know that a priest was sinning, actually the only way to know is if he was hurting you directly with his sin. In that situation what happens, if the person involved only choices are to go the the priest, who hurting them, with their confession or just leave… no one ever addressed what happens in those situations… is the person who was hurt forgotten?
I now know this has nothing to do with your confession, he is just the channel, but what happens in those situations… what is the person suppose to do if there is no one to turn too?
Is someone taking care of those people?
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Gorgias
Guest
I’m not exactly sure what you’re asking. Are you asking where victims of abuse can turn, or whether it’s the case that they can only turn to their abusers? Or, are you claiming a sort of indirect abuse – that priests who are sinners are “hurting” the faithful in a way that prevents the faithful from approaching valid sacraments from them?
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annad347
Guest
Yes…
Yes… thank you… that’s what I’m asking, because they would be receiveing it from the person abusing them.
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Gorgias
Guest
A person who has been abused by a priest is not bound to approach that priest for the sacraments. In fact, it’s completely reasonable (and is recommended) that he does not. He should go to another priest, and not the one who has abused him.
Is that all that you’re asking?
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annad347
Guest
That’s exactly what I’m asking.
If there isnt another priest you can go to is there another way you can receive the sacraments?
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Gorgias
Guest
Are you asking this in the context of a situation like that in the Amazon region, in which a priest only comes around once or twice a year, and if you don’t receive sacraments from him, then you receive no sacraments?
Or, are you asking this in the context of – let’s say – the United States, in which there are many priests available in the region (even if one must drive a bit to get to a different parish)?
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annad347
Guest
For what ever reason, if there wasn’t another priest available, would there be another way for someone to recieve the sacraments?
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Gorgias
Guest
If there were only one priest available anywhere, and he had personally physically abused a person, and there were no other priests in the area to whom that person could make recourse for the sacraments…?
Is this meant to be a hypothetical question?
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Vico
Guest
Baptism can be given by various people, in danger of death.
Communion can only be received by those in a state of grace, with perfect contrition or individual confession (or general absolution with approval of the bishop). If perfect contrition there must be a grave reason to receive, like the danger of death.
Matrimony can be received sometimes without a minister, when there are two witnesses and no priest for a month.
Confession and Anointing of the Sick is restricted to priests.
Holy Orders is only through a bishop.
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angell1
Guest
I think the logic with that question is usually that the priest who is not in the state of grace shouldn’t be receiving either.
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Gorgias
Guest
OK, but Anna isn’t saying that a priest isn’t available (which is what your examples about baptism, communion, and matrimony presuppose). If a priest is available, he can baptize, consecrate and distribute the Eucharist, and witness matrimony. The cases you enumerate (especially matrimony, and generally speaking, baptism) only hold up when a priest is not available. That’s not the case in Anna’s thought experiment.
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Vico
Guest
Yes, I combined physically and morally impossible together as unavailable, but since the question was about many sacraments, I included more than confession.Vico:
OK, but Anna isn’t saying that a priest isn’t available (which is what your examples about baptism, communion, and matrimony presuppose). If a priest is available, he can baptize, consecrate and distribute the Eucharist, and witness matrimony. The cases you enumerate (especially matrimony, and generally speaking, baptism) only hold up when a priest is not available. That’s not the case in Anna’s thought experiment.
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annad347
Guest
No its not a hypothetical question
@Vico, then I wouldn’t be able to receive any of the sacraments, because there is only the one priest?
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MNathaniel
Guest
Rest assured: the Church teaches that the sacraments are unaffected by the priest’s sin.
The priest himself, of course, is affected by his sin (and we should pray for all priests, especially those most struggling – or worse, not struggling – against sin). But you and I are not affected, in the sense of the valid transubstantiation of the Eucharist, or the sacrament of Reconciliation.
The priest himself, of course, is affected by his sin (and we should pray for all priests, especially those most struggling – or worse, not struggling – against sin). But you and I are not affected, in the sense of the valid transubstantiation of the Eucharist, or the sacrament of Reconciliation.
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Vico
Guest
No, not if trying to avoid the priest that is there, except of course, baptism. Baptism can be done by a Catholic deacon. The Catholic Church accepts baptism and chrismation and first eucharist from the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and Assyrian Church of the East and baptism from many Christian ecclesial communities as valid. Also for one not yet Catholic matrimony may be accepted likewise.
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Gorgias
Guest
So… you live somewhere in which there is only one priest available altogether?
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annad347
Guest
Is that necessary information to help me?
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Gorgias
Guest
Yes, because if there is a priest available – other than the one who directly harmed the person in question – then that person should go to that other priest for the sacraments!
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