Falling for an Orthodox girl: revisited

[malfunkshun]

You go and let God lead you where He will! Dont pay attention to some of these “militant” views here. I haven’t been here in awhile, after reading some of the statements on here regarding his acceptance of God, I think I will not return. Kind of reminds me of that old family feud, where some forgot what really happened in the break up!

Yeah, I really didn’t come here to argue; I just wanted to post that I was a catechumen now. There were some supportive people and I appreciate it. But it’s funny how one bad apple can spoil the entire bunch, and it’s also funny how ignorant and naive I was about common Roman Catholic attitudes. It didn’t take long for me to get a good taste of RC hospitality, what with having my sacraments basically described as “probably good enough for a lowly Orthodox peon, but pure poison to an exalted Roman Catholic.”

I already feel like I’ve explained in a sufficiently clear and simple manner that’s easy to understand, just why the notion of papal supremacy and infallibility are mistakes. But Catholics like their Pope, and it hasn’t taken me long to realize that RC’s have a kind of built in sense of superiority… probably a cumulative phenomenon that accrued due to centuries of thinking that the Pope was the divine emperor of all creation, infallible and second only to God. I can imagine that there has probably been quite a profound effect on the collective ego of the Roman Catholic Church.

Anyway, I digress. I have a feeling that trying to argue about this to a bunch of Roman Catholics would be like trying to talk a brick wall into moving out of the way. Plus, I’ve heard about what happens to Orthodox people here who presume to describe themselves as members of the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

So, thanks to the people who wished me well, and that’s pretty much it.

 

[Erich]

The first pope was installed in the fifth century when Catholics were still a part of the Orthodox Church

Really? the fifth century? So, then, who was the first pope?

Most (if not all) historians will tell you that the term “Orthodox” (which translates from the Greek to mean “correctly believing” or “correctly glorifying”) was only adopted by the Orthodox Churches after the Great Schism so that they could distinguish themselves from the Catholic Church.

 

[TheosisM]

The Sacraments, which some people keep and use outside the unity of Christ, are able to preserve the appearance of piety; but the invisible and spiritual virtue of true piety cannot abide there any more than feeling can remain in an amputated part of your body. (Pope Leo XIII: “Exima Nos Laetitia”)

The Church is built on the Rock of Peter, and he who eats the Lamb outside this holy dwelling has no part with God.*** (Pius IX: "Multis Gravibus”)***

Also see all that I posted in my previous posts. Can you quote a source that says that valid sacraments are always beneficial unto salvation outside the Catholic Church? Also, can you please define “right disposition”?

If there are valid sacraments outside of the Catholic Church, in the Orthodox Church, how do you reconcile the validity of Orthodox sacraments with saying they are “not beneficial unto salvation”? If they are valid, meaning that the Holy Spirit is working through them, Jesus Christ is present in the Eucharist, sins are forgiven in Confession, etc., then what do you mean??

 

[Harpazo]

Really? the fifth century? So, then, who was the first pope?

Most (if not all) historians will tell you that the term “Orthodox” (which translates from the Greek to mean “correctly believing” or “correctly glorifying”) was only adopted by the Orthodox Churches after the Great Schism so that they could distinguish themselves from the Catholic Church.

Perhaps, rather than derailing the thread, it might be a good idea to start a new topic on this idea?

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[Formosus]

If the Roman Catholics “left” the Orthodox Church, why don’t the Orthodox hold an ecumenical council? I mean if the Pope is not Orthodox anymore, why not hold an Ecumenical Council without him? Funny that the Ecumenical Councils for the Orthodox stop at basically same point as the schism.

Why would they need to hold a council? They have held general councils (much as the West has since the Schism). There are quite a few of them and are generally referred to as “Pan-Orthodox councils”.

Edit*

To the OP, congratulations on making your decision and may the Holy Trinity continue to guide you.

 

[StillWondering]

Before anything, congrats to malfunkshun in his relationship both with his girlfriend and God.

Having said that, I want to say Catholics have the fullness of the faith which includes the teachings and the completeness of the teaching body =). Witness witness witness.

Prometheum said it well:

Of course the Catholic Church considers valid sacraments as “beneficial unto salvation”, even when they occur outside of the formal boundaries of the Church. Why else would validly baptized Protestants be considered “separated brethren” and “ecclessial communions”, and the Orthodox be considered “sister Churches”? How can these be brothers and sisters in the Lord unless they are, in fact, in the Lord? There is a difference between material and formal schism. Willful schism is quite different from being in schism due to ignorance (such as the many born to non-Catholic Christian families). The Church regards all Christians as her own, whether they know this or not.

However, we can’t go to the other extreme and assume that everyone will be saved and that all sins are merely due to invincible ignorance. The Catholic Church possesses the fullness of the Faith and we know of no surer way to salvation than full communion with her. The Catholic Church is the one and only Church instituted by Jesus Christ, and we long for the day when all who have an imperfect union with her realize it and come into full communion with her, in addition to all those who have neither been baptized nor believe.

That’s my best attempt at articulating it. Perhaps that’s just the result of having Orthodox friends and protestant family members (and growing up and unwitting protestant).

 

[Nine_Two]

If the Roman Catholics “left” the Orthodox Church, why don’t the Orthodox hold an ecumenical council? I mean if the Pope is not Orthodox anymore, why not hold an Ecumenical Council without him? Funny that the Ecumenical Councils for the Orthodox stop at basically same point as the schism.

Is there something we need to hold an Ecumenical Council for?

 

[5Loaves]

Tradycja-

Yes, the Orthodox have valid sacraments, but those sacraments are not beneficial unto salvation since they are sacraments outside the Church.

Others have already wondered what you mean by this statement, as do I.

There is no Orthodox, or Orthodox Church, only Orthodox churches. The priests in most Orthodox churches have valid orders, some so-called Orthodox churches do not, just as there are so-called “Catholic” churches whose priests do not have valid orders.

The true Orthodox are the Eastern Catholic Churches.

The Eastern Catholics I know would be offended by your statements here, as am I, and I don’t see them supported in the teachings of the Latin Church.

I’m not familiar with the context of these centuries old quotations you included so I won’t speculate on their meaning, but I’m sure His Holiness Benedict XVI would be capable of addressing the meaning of them in context. His words and actions as Pope, as those of John Paul II of Blessed Memory, have had an entirely different tone from the one you present here.

Canon Law and other documents of the Catholic Church support the validity of the priesthood and sacraments of most Orthodox churches, what Rome often calls “non-Catholic ministers whose churches possess valid sacraments”. And as we know from the point of view of the Catholic Church, the faithful, those of the Eastern Catholic Churches and of the Latin Church, are allowed to receive the sacraments of Penance, the Eucharist and the Anointing of the Sick from validly ordained Orthodox priests. The Catholic Church makes this provision for her faithful. (The other half of the equation is the Orthodox priest and when and if he will accept a Catholic presenting him/herself for these Sacraments and this varies widely.)

ORIENTALIUM ECCLESIARUM Solemnly Promulgated by His Holiness Pope Paul VI on. November 21, 1964.
27. Without prejudice to the principles noted earlier, Eastern Christians who are in fact separated in good faith from the Catholic Church, if they ask of their own accord and have the right dispositions, may be admitted to the sacraments of Penance, the Eucharist and the Anointing of the Sick. Further, Catholics may ask for these same sacraments from those non-Catholic ministers whose churches possess valid sacraments, as often as necessity or a genuine spiritual benefit recommends such a course and access to a Catholic priest is physically or morally impossible.(33)

Canon Law, the Canon law of the Holy Roman Church
Can. 844 §2. Whenever necessity requires it or true spiritual advantage suggests it, and provided that danger of error or of indifferentism is avoided, the Christian faithful for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a Catholic minister are permitted to receive the sacraments of penance, Eucharist, and anointing of the sick from non-Catholic ministers in whose Churches these sacraments are valid.

Many of us hope that in this forum, especially here in the “Eastern Catholicism” section, when discussing relations with Orthodox Churches we follow the lead of our contemporary leaders-- our Holy Father Benedict XVI, the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew, Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, and so many Catholic and Orthodox church leaders who are actively working together on shared concerns and goals.

 

[Tradycja]

Why would they need to hold a council?

Well for one the Russians and the Greeks disagree on the issue of how to receive converts into the Church. The Russians often do it by chrismation only while the Greeks re-baptized. That means one could be considered fully Orthodox by the Russians meanwhile the Greeks consider that person not even baptized.

There are many fuzzy areas in Orthodox theology like that. That issue alone seems like it would be grounds for a Council.

 

[Tradycja]

The Eastern Catholics I know would be offended by your statements here, as am I, and I don’t see them supported in the teachings of the Latin Church.

Well this is just a matter of opinoin. The Eastern Catholics I know wouldn’t be offended at all. It’s true. There is no such thing as “orthodoxy” seperated from Rome. At very least most of the Orthodox accept divorce and contraception. Not to mention other aberrations such as “toll houses” after death. Orthodoxy is not one Church, it is a confederation of national churches so the errors they hold to vary.

I’m not familiar with the context of these centuries old quotations you included so I won’t speculate on their meaning, but I’m sure His Holiness Benedict XVI would be capable of addressing the meaning of them in context. His words and actions as Pope, as those of John Paul II of Blessed Memory, have had an entirely different tone from the one you present here.

What matters is not the “tone” but the reality of what the statement says.

Canon Law and other documents of the Catholic Church support the validity of the priesthood and sacraments of most Orthodox churches, what Rome often calls “non-Catholic ministers whose churches possess valid sacraments”.

I never said Eastern “Orthodox” don’t have valid sacraments.

And as we know from the point of view of the Catholic Church, the faithful, those of the Eastern Catholic Churches and of the Latin Church, are allowed to receive the sacraments of Penance, the Eucharist and the Anointing of the Sick from validly ordained Orthodox priests. The Catholic Church makes this provision for her faithful. (The other half of the equation is the Orthodox priest and when and if he will accept a Catholic presenting him/herself for these Sacraments and this varies widely.)

This is a matter of discipline and the Church determines under which situation this may take place.

ORIENTALIUM ECCLESIARUM Solemnly Promulgated by His Holiness Pope Paul VI on. November 21, 1964.
27. Without prejudice to the principles noted earlier, Eastern Christians who are in fact separated in good faith from the Catholic Church, if they ask of their own accord and have the right dispositions, may be admitted to the sacraments of Penance, the Eucharist and the Anointing of the Sick. Further, Catholics may ask for these same sacraments from those non-Catholic ministers whose churches possess valid sacraments, as often as necessity or a genuine spiritual benefit recommends such a course and access to a Catholic priest is physically or morally impossible.(33)

See it says “in good faith”. If you are aware that you hold a heretical or schismatic position you are not “in good faith”.

Canon Law, the Canon law of the Holy Roman Church
Can. 844 §2. Whenever necessity requires it or true spiritual advantage suggests it, and provided that danger of error or of indifferentism is avoided, the Christian faithful for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a Catholic minister are permitted to receive the sacraments of penance, Eucharist, and anointing of the sick from non-Catholic ministers in whose Churches these sacraments are valid.

“Provided that the danger of error or indifferentism is avoided”. I see a lot of indifferentism with this issues from a lot of Catholics.

 

[bpbasilphx]

The Sacraments, which some people keep and use outside the unity of Christ, are able to preserve the appearance of piety; but the invisible and spiritual virtue of true piety cannot abide there any more than feeling can remain in an amputated part of your body. (Pope Leo XIII: “Exima Nos Laetitia”)

The Church is built on the Rock of Peter, and he who eats the Lamb outside this holy dwelling has no part with God.*** (Pius IX: "Multis Gravibus”)***

Also see all that I posted in my previous posts. Can you quote a source that says that valid sacraments are always beneficial unto salvation outside the Catholic Church? Also, can you please define “right disposition”?

A strict Orthodox interpretation would say that Eugene, Leo XIII, and Pius IX are antipopes.

Deal.

 

[Tradycja]

There are no “unpleasant” views on this thread. These threads are run by an apologetics organization. The whole point of an apologetics organization is to debate so that we we all arrive at the truth. It is the truth that matters above all. If an Orthodox Christian wants to come to the thread and debate me that his Church is the true Church I welcome him. If however, what you want is for us all to be indifferent and pretend there is no difference between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church then I don’t even see the point of getting on a forum. Do you understand that some people, that are canonized saints risked EVERYTHING to become Catholic? (Blessed Leonid Feodorov, St. Josaphat, etc.) I think the quotes that you are claiming are “scoffing” are really quotes from Popes. You will have to take that up with them, not me.

 

[Tradycja]

A strict Orthodox interpretation would say that Eugene, Leo XIII, and Pius IX are antipopes.
Deal.

And your point is?

 

[bpbasilphx]

And your point is?

My point is that is if these are antipopes, then their statements you quoted carry no weight.

And as far as the Orthdox convening an Ecumenical council, doubtless one of the first things it might do is to fill the vacant see of Rome.

Now, when you are through having your second spasm at being dealt with as you deal with the Orthodo , consider this:

Were Orthodox sacraments not grace filled, the Roman Catholic Church would not allow her members to receive them from Orthodox (or non-Chalcedonian or Assyrian) clergy under certain cirmustances.

 

[Tradycja]

Were Orthodox sacraments not grace filled, the Roman Catholic Church would not allow her members to receive them from Orthodox (or non-Chalcedonian or Assyrian) clergy under certain cirmustances.

I am not saying that Orthodox sacraments are not valid.

 

[Tradycja]

My point is that is if these are antipopes, then their statements you quoted carry no weight

I don’t believe I understand your position. I thought you were a Melkite. Are you a sedevacantist?

 

[Ghosty]

I don’t believe I understand your position. I thought you were a Melkite. Are you a sedevacantist?

He’s an Orthodox person who practices in a Melkite parish, just like have of my own parish. It’s quite common for us.

Malfunkshun: Congratulations on your coming to Apostolic Christianity. Don’t take the negative posts on this thread as any indication of “common Catholic perspective”. You should be able to tell by the small number of negative posters (and the corrections coming from many more Catholics) that it’s not at all the common view at all. It’s also not the official view of the Catholic Communion; we have priests who concelebrate with Orthodox, and the Sacraments are recognized as full and complete (it is actually the Eastern Orthodox who can be fuzzy about the validity and Sanctity of Catholic Sacraments, not the other way around). Catholics have no grounds to call Orthodox Sacraments into question, as our Councils and Canon Law recognize them as full and true.

Peace and God bless!

 

[Tradycja]

Don’t take the negative posts on this thread as any indication of “common Catholic perspective”. You should be able to tell by the small number of negative posters

Is it negative to want to know the Truth?

we have priests who concelebrate with Orthodox

Hmm, if you do you should report them to the Bishop:

Canon 702 “Catholic priests are forbidden to concelebrate the Divine Liturgy
with non-Catholic priests or ministers.” (Eastern Code of Canon Law)


http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG1199/_PJI.HTM#D

Catholics have no grounds to call Orthodox Sacraments into question

No one is calling the validity into question. Why do you guys keep saying that? They are perfectly VALID but they cannot benefit unto salvation. It is similar to if I receive communion in mortal sin, the sacrament is VALID, but it doesn’t BENEFIT me. Understand? The only thing necessary for salvation is not just valid sacraments, you must also hold the true FAITH.

 

[Ghosty]

Is it negative to want to know the Truth?

You’re not speaking the Truth, though.

Hmm, if you do you should report them to the Bishop:

Canon 702 “Catholic priests are forbidden to concelebrate the Divine Liturgy
with non-Catholic priests or ministers.” (Eastern Code of Canon Law)

[
intratext.com/IXT/ENG1199/_PJI.HTM#D](CCEO: text - IntraText CT)

Our Bishop was one of the concelebrants, and he’s the one who invited the Syriac Orthodox priest up to the altar. It was a beautiful Divine Liturgy!

The Eastern Code of Canon Law does not reflect the local Canons of the various Eastern Churches.

No one is calling the validity into question. Why do you guys keep saying that? They are perfectly VALID but they cannot benefit unto salvation. It is similar to if I receive communion in mortal sin, the sacrament is VALID, but it doesn’t BENEFIT me. Understand? The only thing necessary for salvation is not just valid sacraments, you must also hold the true FAITH.

Obviously they DO benefit unto salvation, since we honor Orthodox Saints who were never in Communion with Rome (such as St. Gregory Palamas), and secondly Catholics are permitted by the Catholic Church to receive Orthodox Sacraments. Furthermore, when a person is coming into the Catholic Church from Orthodoxy they are not required to go to Confession; their Confessions in the Orthodox Churches are considered valid. If the Sacrament of Confession didn’t benefit the Orthodox, they would be required to Confess prior to receiving Communion in the Catholic Church, but they are not.

Peace and God bless!

 

[Tradycja]

Our Bishop was one of the concelebrants, and he’s the one who invited the Syriac Orthodox priest up to the altar. It was a beautiful Divine Liturgy!

Wow that is shocking, I will have severe reservations about going to the Melkite Church again. I am no Canon Lawyer but I HIGHLY doubt that the particular laws of the sui iuris Churches can trump the laws promulgated by the Vatican in the Eastern Code of Canon Law.