Falling for an Orthodox girl: revisited

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. But Catholics like their Pope, and it hasn’t taken me long to realize that RC’s have a kind of built in sense of superiority… probably a cumulative phenomenon that accrued due to centuries of thinking that the Pope was the divine emperor of all creation, infallible and second only to God. . 🙂
Well, there may be some bad apples discussing it, and I certainly didn’t want to come across that way. If I did, I sincerely apologize. That being said, where do Catholics say that the Pope is the emperor of all creation and second to God? I have found the ego to be just as strong in Orthodox. One only needs to look at the xenophobic nature of some of the monks on Mount Athos that are COMPLETELY opposed to ecumenism. Also, just as an honest question, no nasty motives: how do the Orthodox settle any potential issues that come up, if they don’t need any more ecumenical councils? Why is there conflict between the Patriarchs?

On another note, I hope that the Holy Spirit continues to lead you on your journey. Despite the differences, there is much, much more we share than we don’t. God Bless!
 
Wow that is shocking, I will have severe reservations about going to the Melkite Church again. I am no Canon Lawyer but I HIGHLY doubt that the particular laws of the sui iuris Churches can trump the laws promulgated by the Vatican in the Eastern Code of Canon Law.
Perhaps you should become more comfortable with the reality of Eastern Catholic Churches before posting your own accounts of “the Truth” in the Eastern Catholic forum. 🤷

Malfunkshun: Hopefully this exchange will be illustrative to you of how divergent this person’s views are from Catholic reality and Truth.

Peace and God bless!
 
Well for one the Russians and the Greeks disagree on the issue of how to receive converts into the Church. The Russians often do it by chrismation only while the Greeks re-baptized. That means one could be considered fully Orthodox by the Russians meanwhile the Greeks consider that person not even baptized.

There are many fuzzy areas in Orthodox theology like that. That issue alone seems like it would be grounds for a Council.
That’s not really a problem. Its a matter of economy. The Greek reception by chrismation covers any defects in the person’s baptism as per Orthodox teaching and the Russian Orthodox Church accepts this and is fine with it. I have talked with Russian clergy myself on this issue before. They didn’t feel it necessary to call a council over it, though I am sure the upcoming Pan-Orthodox synod that they are planning to hold will probably deal with things like this.
 
Well, there may be some bad apples discussing it, and I certainly didn’t want to come across that way. If I did, I sincerely apologize. That being said, where do Catholics say that the Pope is the emperor of all creation and second to God? I have found the ego to be just as strong in Orthodox. ** One only needs to look at the xenophobic nature of some of the monks on Mount Athos that are COMPLETELY opposed to ecumenism**. Also, just as an honest question, no nasty motives: how do the Orthodox settle any potential issues that come up, **if they don’t need any more ecumenical councils? **Why is there conflict between the Patriarchs?

On another note, I hope that the Holy Spirit continues to lead you on your journey. Despite the differences, there is much, much more we share than we don’t. God Bless!
Well if you want to look at opposition of any sort of ecumenicism then you need only look at the radical Latin traditionalist Catholics who hold the very same sort of positions as the Athonite monks as far as ecumenical dialogue between Catholics and Orthodox are concerned.

I already mentioned this on my previous post, but they do frequently hold pan-Orthodox councils to discuss these matters of discipline.
 
I am not saying that Orthodox sacraments are not valid.
Validity is whether or not the sacraments confer grace.

Licity is whether or not they are permitted to be offered.

Valid But Illicit is generally the hardliner view; you go beyond, claiming no benefit; this directly contradicts both the CCEO and CIC canons permitting Catholics to receive sacraments from Orthodox priests.

In short, you claim the Holy Spirit can be At Work and ineffective on willing participants in the sacraments who are properly disposed to receive them.

Further, the Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI have pointed out that the Orthodox are still part of the church, merely part of the church in schism.
 
Valid But Illicit is generally the hardliner view; you go beyond, claiming no benefit; this directly contradicts both the CCEO and CIC canons permitting Catholics to receive sacraments from Orthodox priests.
You still fail to understand what I am trying to communicate.

The Canons allow Catholics to receive from Orthodox in certain circumstances. Those Catholics would receive the benefit of the sacrament because they hold the Catholic faith and they are going because the Church permits them to by its Canon Law.

There may be members of the Orthodox Church who are in good faith and of good will. This good faith and good will that will eventually lead them to embrace full unity with Rome like it did with St. Josaphat. In the meantime members validly baptized in those Churches are CATHOLICS (and receive benefit from the sacraments) until they embrace heresy or schism. In other words these Orthodox Christians are not OUTSIDE the Church–they ARE Catholics.

Read this:

**Pope Pius XI, Ecclesiam Dei, Encyclical on St. Josaphat, Nov. 12, 1923: **“Our Saint [Josaphat] was born of schismatic parents but was validly baptized and received the name of John. From his earliest years he lived a saintly life. Although he was much impressed by the splendors of the Slavic liturgy, he always sought therein first and foremost the truth and glory of God. Because of this, and not because he was impressed by arguments, even as a child he turned towards communion with the Ecumenical, that is, the Catholic Church. **Of this Church he always considered himself a member because of the valid baptism which he had received. ** What is more, he felt himself called by a special Providence to re-establish everywhere the holy unity of the Church.”

Pope Pius XI says here in Ecclesiam Dei that St. Josaphat was born of Orthodox parents in an area which was separated from the Chair of Peter and acceptance of the Papacy. St. Josaphat was validly baptized as an infant (and thus became a Catholic). As he grew up, he attended the Eastern Orthodox liturgy with his parents, but was still a Catholic and even “saintly” according to Pope Pius XI. He was a Catholic, even though he was attending a schismatic church building, because he had not obstinately embraced the Eastern Schism by rejecting the Papacy. Thus, his baptism as an infant made him a member of the Church (and subject to the Roman Pontiff) and he did not cease to be a member until he obstinately embraced schism or heresy, which he did not, even though he was attending a schismatic church with his parents. This is a precise articulation of the position on when the baptized children of heretics become schismatics and/or heretics: it is not at the age of reason, but when they obstinately embrace schism or heresy.
 
Wow that is shocking, I will have severe reservations about going to the Melkite Church again. I am no Canon Lawyer but I HIGHLY doubt that the particular laws of the sui iuris Churches can trump the laws promulgated by the Vatican in the Eastern Code of Canon Law.
You might want to avoid going to Latin Churches as well, since your Pope has partaken in the Divine Liturgy with Orthodox.😃
 
how do the Orthodox settle any potential issues that come up, if they don’t need any more ecumenical councils? Why is there conflict between the Patriarchs?
Pan-Orthodox Synods would do what you’re suggesting.
Ecumenical Councils are for doctrinal issues.

There is conflict between Patriarchs because there is conflict between people. They may not always see eye to eye, but they agree on everything important and acknowledge eachother as brothers.
 
The Canons allow Catholics to receive from Orthodox in certain circumstances. Those Catholics would receive the benefit of the sacrament because they hold the Catholic faith and they are going because the Church permits them to by its Canon Law.
And what about the fact that Orthodox are allowed to receive the Sacraments in the Catholic Church? Do they not receive Grace in that case? Isn’t the Catholic Church knowingly allowing, and even encouraging, Sacrilege since it doesn’t demand that the Orthodox convert or join the Catholic Communion before doing so?

Canon Law states that members of Eastern Churches not in full Communion can receive certain Sacraments, and that Catholic ministers validly administer to them. So being in “full Communion” is obviously not a requirement for the Grace of Sacraments.

Peace and God bless!
 
the oriental orthodox doesnt need the extra 4 other councils, of the 7th Ecumenical council, so why they dont need the other council? you are blind to the truth my man!:eek:
Really? Did the schism occur after the seventh Ecumenical council? What makes you think the Orthodox are in need of another council?
 
There’s a lot of reason,
  1. the use of the old and new calendar, which cause schism on the Eastern Orthodox Church.
  2. the acceptance of new Autocephalous churches, caused schism on the EO
  3. Ecumenism issue with the EO churches - cause schism to the EO and Mt.Athos monks
  4. the degrading morality and use of contraception in the orthodox church still unresolved.
  5. etc…etc…etc…there’s a lot reason to hold an Ecumenical council, oh by the way, i forgot, its already a dead empire.
Is there something we need to hold an Ecumenical Council for?
 
im happy if that really happens, it just means communion between the two churches.
You might want to avoid going to Latin Churches as well, since your Pope has partaken in the Divine Liturgy with Orthodox.😃
 
We are Catholics, not Hegelians. It’s not a matter of more hardline or less hardline. No salvation outside the Church is a dogma thrice defined solemnly.

As I said, there may be people in the Orthodox Church that are completely in good faith and in that case they ARE Catholics (like St. Josaphat before coming into union with Rome). Of course a simple Orthodox farmer in the middle of Siberia is a different situation then Orthodox Christians in the Western world who have access to the internet and can easy study Church teaching and history.

Additionally many Orthodox accept contraception (which is against the natural law) and divorce. In the United States we have religious freedom and an Orthodox could become Greek Catholic quite easily. No one will cut his head off like they did to St. Josaphat.

I don’t see why this is problem. If the Eastern Orthodox Church were the true Church I would become Orthodox tomorrow even if it meant I had to go to a super-ethnic parish where I was a total outsider culturally. Salvation is the #1 issue. It’s not only about how beautiful the Liturgy is.

Some people on these forums act as if it makes no difference whether you are Orthodox or Catholic. It’s called indifferentism.
 
There’s a lot of reason,
  1. the use of the old and new calendar, which cause schism on the Eastern Orthodox Church.
  2. the acceptance of new Autocephalous churches, caused schism on the EO
  3. Ecumenism issue with the EO churches - cause schism to the EO and Mt.Athos monks
  4. the degrading morality and use of contraception in the orthodox church still unresolved.
  5. etc…etc…etc…there’s a lot reason to hold an Ecumenical council, oh by the way, i forgot, its already a dead empire.
Its been said several times already on this exact topic. Eastern Orthodox hold Pan-Orthodox councils and have been doing so since the latter days of the Empire to solve issues like this. There is one being planned currently. They don’t need the Emperor to call these Pan Orthodox synods. Perhaps you need to read what people say OR do some research into the topic before you keep repeating yourself.
Additionally many Orthodox accept contraception (which is against the natural law) and divorce. In the United States we have religious freedom and an Orthodox could become Greek Catholic quite easily. No one will cut his head off like they did to St. Josaphat.
You do realize that a lot of Catholics accept contraception too right and that many Orthodox Churches do reject it as well. This is a sad issue of modern society and tied to any specific Church. Also, as for divorce, ecclesiastical divorce existed in the Eastern churches way before the schism. It was a well known fact and the western church never had a problem with it.
No salvation outside the Church is a dogma thrice defined solemnly.
Its a teaching of the Church but there is more to it then just that. I see you have been misled by that St. Benedict center and Fr. Feeney’s errors though. As Ghosty pointed out, the Byzantine Catholic Churches have many saints who were canonized as saint during the time we were not in full communion with the Church , such as Gregory Palamas. The Roman Church has accepted it and I beleive even encouraged his restoration to our calenders, so your strict interpretation of the teaching on “No Salvation outside the Church” is appearntly not the one that the Roman Church holds. Also, the Church has affirmed that the Orthodox Churches are almost in full communion. The language used shows that in some way they are in communion and so then in some way they are part of the Church.
 
Regardless of what the original poster had to say, I can’t help but side with Tradycja.

I am now an official hardliner!!! This feels good 🙂
 
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