Falling for an Orthodox girl: revisited

[Sunflower15]

We had our church wedding in her Orthodox Church in Romania, with the permission of my Bishop. We had 2 Orthodox priests and a Roman Catholic priest. Everyone commented on how beautiful it was that we had both Churches represented, and expressed the conviction that they wished for unity with the Catholic Church. It was the Orthodox wedding ceremony and the Catholic priest participated.

Wow! It must have been a truly beautiful ceremony! I’m trying to learn about the Holy Orthodox, and even about the Eastern Catholics, and you are right. we are way too ignorant about this! I feel ashamed sometimes about the questions I ask!

On the other hand, the only way to learn is by asking the foolish questions and realizing when I hear the answers that I have been ‘hiding under a rock’!

It would have been wonderful to videotape your wedding and post it on youtube…

The cyber media must be used to build connections between our churches!

When I learn something that I think would be good to explain to other Catholics, I write a story online . You can see some on my webpage, if you want.

http://www.examiner.com/x-9052-Orlando-Roman-Catholic-Examiner

I’ve written stories explaining the prayer rope and sacred iconography, as well as on meetings between the Holy Ecumenical Patriarch and the Holy Father.

Pax Christi.

 

[Sunflower15]

The Church says that the Orthodox are close enough that they are still, in some way, a functional part. Many forget this; they need prayers.

As for malfunkshun:
Congratulations, best wishes, many years.

Well…we all do! I’m a ‘craddle Catholic’ and still need prayers! Please, pray for me to become a better Christian!

 

[Sunflower15]

Thank you Sunflower. I was totally ready to have my account deleted after reading this thread…thanks for the good Christian thoughts.

Oh, don’t give up so easily! You DO have to grow some ‘tough skin’ to be part of this forum, but I have to say that I have learned a great deal and have ‘met’ wonderful people of different traditions!

One thing that I cannot understand is that sometimes I really like people with whom I have no commonality in terms of values/beliefs, and sometimes I really DISlike people with whom I totally share the same values/beliefs…weird, no?

I guess the ‘lesson’ is that GOD weighs the ‘hearts’ not the ‘minds’…

 

[Andrew_Phillip]

If one is Orthodox, and one is Catholic, then they are BOTH believers! Neither one is an unbeliever!

**True… but we believe differently on some basics of the Faith.

It’s not all about Liturgical Styles you know.
**

 

[Sunflower15]

**True… but we believe differently on some basics of the Faith.

It’s not all about Liturgical Styles you know.
**

In your opinion, which would be the TOP 5 main differences in beliefs between Orthodox & Catholics?

I keep searching for those, and cannot find them… It sounds like semantics to me… for example, someone says that the Orthodox don’t add dogmas that were not there before in regards to Mary - say the Immaculate Conception- and then I find within the Orthodox Liturgy beautiful and specific mentions of Mary having been given special graces from the moment of her conception within her mother Anne… almost a textbook definition of the Immaculate Conception but without the terminology!]

 

[dzheremi]

There many threads on that topic, Sunflower, but they are often closed in short order due to off-topic and needless polemics from both sides. From my understanding, which is far from authoritative or complete, the Orthodox rejection of the Immaculate Conception stems from much the same place as their rejection of Papal Infallibility and other issues that separate the two churches: The lack of support for such innovations in the writings of the Early Church Fathers outside of self-serving and erroneous quotes manipulated in Catholic apologetics. This points to a lack of evidence for such practices or dogmas in the early church, as if they had always and everywhere been believed there would have been some record in tradition, not just western sources dating back to later time periods. For example, the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is traced back to Eadmer, the 12th century biographer of Anselm of Canterbury. Not exactly of the vintage needed to establish it as an early church practice, or even pre-Schism belief on behalf of the Latin Church, for that matter.

 

[Sunflower15]

There many threads on that topic, Sunflower, but they are often closed in short order due to off-topic and needless polemics from both sides. From my understanding, which is far from authoritative or complete, the Orthodox rejection of the Immaculate Conception stems from much the same place as their rejection of Papal Infallibility and other issues that separate the two churches: The lack of support for such innovations in the writings of the Early Church Fathers outside of self-serving and erroneous quotes manipulated in Catholic apologetics. This points to a lack of evidence for such practices or dogmas in the early church, as if they had always and everywhere been believed there would have been some record in tradition, not just western sources dating back to later time periods. For example, the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is traced back to Eadmer, the 12th century biographer of Anselm of Canterbury. Not exactly of the vintage needed to establish it as an early church practice, or even pre-Schism belief on behalf of the Latin Church, for that matter.

I understand that for the Holy Orthodox, if the Early Fathers didn’t make it a point, then neither should we…which we disagree on…

But, which are the TOP 5 MOST TRULY distinct beliefs that separate both traditions?

I am not asking for defense nor proofs, just WHICH are they?

For example - the Marian dogmas [Assumption, Immaculate Conception, are there any others not in agreement?]

Ok, what are the other 4 TOP things? [NOT just rituals or liturgical styles or customs]

 

[5Loaves]

In your opinion, which would be the TOP 5 main differences in beliefs between Orthodox & Catholics?

I keep searching for those, and cannot find them… It sounds like semantics to me… for example, someone says that the Orthodox don’t add dogmas that were not there before in regards to Mary - say the Immaculate Conception- and then I find within the Orthodox Liturgy beautiful and specific mentions of Mary having been given special graces from the moment of her conception within her mother Anne… almost a textbook definition of the Immaculate Conception but without the terminology!]

Thank you for your interest in understanding better this topic for Eastern Catholics and Orthodox. Please look in older threads here and in the “Non-Catholic Religions” section which also has had discussions touching on such issues, and then if you still want to explore this again further open up a new thread on the topic

 

[Sunflower15]

Thank you for your interest in understanding better this topic for Eastern Catholics and Orthodox. Please look in older threads here and in the “Non-Catholic Religions” section which also has had discussions touching on such issues, and then if you still want to explore this again further open up a new thread on the topic

I have many times, but my point in this particular thread was that if we identify the TOP 5 differences and this couple can live with these differences, then everything should be fine for them…at least in terms of being of different traditions…

I did not mean it as an independent non-related post…the point is not to argue whether people of different traditions should or should not marry, as others have already done so, but whether they can deal with the most graphic differences and still be ok as a couple.

However, going to the other threads on this topic, I’ve been to tens of them, no one has so far been able to list for me 5 differences -even after claiming that there are so many…

Pax Christi

 

[Formosus]

I understand that for the Holy Orthodox, if the Early Fathers didn’t make it a point, then neither should we…which we disagree on…

But, which are the TOP 5 MOST TRULY distinct beliefs that separate both traditions?

I am not asking for defense nor proofs, just WHICH are they?

For example - the Marian dogmas [Assumption, Immaculate Conception, are there any others not in agreement?]

Ok, what are the other 4 TOP things? [NOT just rituals or liturgical styles or customs]

Top 5 Beliefs that an Orthodox Christian would probably say separate the Orthodox Churches from the Catholic Churches.

1. The Papal dogmas (infallibility, universal jurisdiction)
2. The Filioque as a procession of the Spirit’s hypostasis from or through the Son
3. The scholastic “Divine Simplicity” model as being an accurate description of God
   4.The west’s historical rejection of Hesychasm
   5.The west’s view that Grace is created and not Divine (and consequently that Icons are not a source of this divine Grace) though arguably this could be connected to number 3.

 

[Andrew_Phillip]

Top 5 Beliefs that an Orthodox Christian would probably say separate the Orthodox Churches from the Catholic Churches.

1. The Papal dogmas (infallibility, universal jurisdiction)
2. The Filioque as a procession of the Spirit’s hypostasis from or through the Son
3. The scholastic “Divine Simplicity” model as being an accurate description of God
   4.The west’s historical rejection of Hesychasm
   5.The west’s view that Grace is created and not Divine (and consequently that Icons are not a source of this divine Grace) though arguably this could be connected to number 3.

**Hi Formosus Hope you had a really great Ukie Christmas!!!

I am intrigued with numbers 3, 4, and 5. Can you elaborate?

Also, where do you see purgatory and the immaculate conception in the mix? I mean the concept of original sin, sin, and forgiveness?**

 

[Sunflower15]

Top 5 Beliefs that an Orthodox Christian would probably say separate the Orthodox Churches from the Catholic Churches.

1. The Papal dogmas (infallibility, universal jurisdiction)
2. The Filioque as a procession of the Spirit’s hypostasis from or through the Son
3. The scholastic “Divine Simplicity” model as being an accurate description of God
   4.The west’s historical rejection of Hesychasm
   5.The west’s view that Grace is created and not Divine (and consequently that Icons are not a source of this divine Grace) though arguably this could be connected to number 3.

Let’s see, in terms of affecting a couple, I don’t see the first 2 being an issue.

Both understand that aside from infallibility in matters of doctrine & faith and universality, the Bishop of Rome is like the other Bishops -the same reverence is due and the same duties are expected from them. As to the filioque, we both agree the HS comes from the Father -and whether He comes from the Son or not- I don’t see that affecting a relationship adversely.

The other 3, I have never heard of, I have no idea what these mean, so I’ll have to research to see if it would affect a relationship or not -IMHO, of course!

I googled ‘Hesychasm’ and I have to admit that I have always practiced this -and thought that’s what ALL the Catholic mystics did! - especially using the Jesus Prayer in front of the Blessed Sacrament while in the Adoration Chapel. In fact, I do this almost daily.
I don’t think it’s exclusive of Orthodox…‘The descent of the mind into the heart’ was taught by St. Ignatius of Loyola as his “Spiritual Exercises”, not to mention the mystics, like the Carmelites.

Are you saying that the Holy Orthodox believe that God is divisible or has ‘parts’? Really? How to divide perfection? It does not sound -from reading some of your beautiful Liturgy- that God is understood that way…

If grace is created, isn’t it divine or divinely created, as in created by the divine? You lost me there!

 

[Sunflower15]

**Hi Formosus Hope you had a really great Ukie Christmas!!!

I am intrigued with numbers 3, 4, and 5. Can you elaborate?

Also, where do you see purgatory and the immaculate conception in the mix? I mean the concept of original sin, sin, and forgiveness?**

Don’t Orthodox and Catholics have the same understanding of original sin and forgiveness? It sure sounds like it! And VERY different from every other Christian tradition!

 

[Formosus]

3. plato.stanford.edu/entries/divine-simplicity/​

The Eastern Orthodox hold that God is not simple but rather has two modes of existence, His unknowable Essence, and His Energies (actions, works). The Divine Simplicity model as traditionally understood in the West is in opposition to this.

This ties into #5 because under the Byzantine view, Grace is God Himself (His Energies), where in the west Grace is a creation of God.

I can’t tell you too much on #4 except that the Hesychest movement originally (to my knowledge) emphasized a certain physical participation in the prayer (for instance the breathing motions in the Jesus prayer) that the west thought was heretical/dangerous.

#2 does affect our relationship adversely because if we can not recognize that we both hold compatible views on the Trinity, then there can be no communion with each other. The Trinity is one of the core foundational beliefs of the faith.

Both understand that aside from infallibility in matters of doctrine & faith and universality, the Bishop of Rome is like the other Bishops -the same reverence is due and the same duties are expected from them.

No, the Bishop of Rome according to the Latin west has immediate jurisdiction in any diocese in the world, whether Latin or Eastern. The Orthodox reject this sort of ecclesiology and beleive it to be in direct opposition to Apostolic doctrine. Hence this is the number 1 problem. I consider the questions of purgatory and immaculate conception to be tied into this since ultimately its not so much the belief of purgatory or Immaculate conception which upset the Orthodox, rather it is that the Pope of Rome has proclaimed these to be Dogmas of the faith. Most Orthodox are fine with people accepting these beliefs as fallible theological opinions.

 

[Monty61]

Wow! It must have been a truly beautiful ceremony! I’m trying to learn about the Holy Orthodox, and even about the Eastern Catholics, and you are right. we are way too ignorant about this! I feel ashamed sometimes about the questions I ask!

On the other hand, the only way to learn is by asking the foolish questions and realizing when I hear the answers that I have been ‘hiding under a rock’!

It would have been wonderful to videotape your wedding and post it on youtube…

The cyber media must be used to build connections between our churches!

When I learn something that I think would be good to explain to other Catholics, I write a story online . You can see some on my webpage, if you want.

http://www.examiner.com/x-9052-Orlando-Roman-Catholic-Examiner

I’ve written stories explaining the prayer rope and sacred iconography, as well as on meetings between the Holy Ecumenical Patriarch and the Holy Father.

Pax Christi.

We do have a dvd of the wedding. I don’t know how to copy video and post it. Not sure I want to…I look pretty goofy in it! I think I was more emotional than my wife. Luckily we were standing facing the priests and not many could see how many tears were going down my face.

 

[Monty61]

Top 5 Beliefs that an Orthodox Christian would probably say separate the Orthodox Churches from the Catholic Churches.

1. The Papal dogmas (infallibility, universal jurisdiction)
2. The Filioque as a procession of the Spirit’s hypostasis from or through the Son
3. The scholastic “Divine Simplicity” model as being an accurate description of God
   4.The west’s historical rejection of Hesychasm
   5.The west’s view that Grace is created and not Divine (and consequently that Icons are not a source of this divine Grace) though arguably this could be connected to number 3.

Very academic. Maybe fun for people with a lot of degrees to debate, but I don’t see the necessity or how any of these purely intellectual concepts should stand in the way of everyday Catholics and Orthodox being in full Communion.

 

[Formosus]

Very academic. Maybe fun for people with a lot of degrees to debate, but I don’t see the necessity or how any of these purely intellectual concepts should stand in the way of everyday Catholics and Orthodox being in full Communion.

If you want a non-academic answer, then the short of it is that Orthodox do not think they share the same faith with Catholics and believe us to be heterodox.

 

[5Loaves]

I have many times,* but my point in this particular thread was that if we identify the TOP 5 differences and this couple* can live with these differences, then everything should be fine for them…at least in terms of being of different traditions…

I did not mean it as an independent non-related post…the point is not to argue whether people of different traditions should or should not marry, as others have already done so, but whether they can deal with the most graphic differences and still be ok as a couple.

You do understand that this thread is an Orthodox catechumen with an Orthodox girlfriend. He initiated this thread to share with us his joy in being accepted into the Orthodox catechumenate that week.

This couple may have, surely do have, their differences but the differences between Catholics and Orthodox ain’t one of those. His tread was almost immediately hijacked by Catholics arguing about Catholics and Orthodox. I imagine he’s given up on the thread since.

 

[Monty61]

If you want a non-academic answer, then the short of it is that Orthodox do not think they share the same faith with Catholics and believe us to be heterodox.

Most of the non-academic Orthodox people who I have met through my wife do not share that viewpoint. A couple of the Orthodox priests I have met share your view, but most I have met do not. For sure, most Catholics do not share that view, as far as I know.

If the original poster is still reading, good luck. I was very lucky to find my Orthodox girl, and I hope your success is just as good.

 

[Aramis]

Most of the non-academic Orthodox people who I have met through my wife do not share that viewpoint. A couple of the Orthodox priests I have met share your view, but most I have met do not. For sure, most Catholics do not share that view, as far as I know.

If the original poster is still reading, good luck. I was very lucky to find my Orthodox girl, and I hope your success is just as good.

My experience is that the clergy are less likely than the faithful to speak of a belief in the heterodoxy of Catholics. Most of the clergy will spout the party line when asked in public… but hold a slightly softer stance in person. The faithful, however, are more likely to spout radical views on either side.

Some even believe revived Ecclesiastical Communion is long overdue, but impeded by Catholic desires for “Reunion.”