False Prophesies of LDS Prophets

[evanfaust]

Again, an incredibly impressive lack of knowledge of your church. Ever read LDS Bruce R. McKonkie saying the Catholic Church is the Great and Abominable Church? Ever notice that, in the old temple ceremonies, a Catholic Priest was shown as the agent of Satan?

Texan,

Again you judge based on assumptions! Yes, I am aware of it! It is in Mormon Doctrine, but Bruce R. McKonkie retracted and for a good reason …because the great and abominable church is not the Catholic church…According to the scriptures, the “great and abominable church” and “whore of all the earth” refers to any organization that opposes the true Church of Jesus Christ. The Church does not teach or endorse the idea that these terms refer to any specific religion or organization. It is clear that in cases where past church authorities have modified this definition through speculation, that the First Presidency has firmly declared those speculations to be in error.

About the Priest in the temple…maybe you saw a Catholic father…I had the impression it was a Protestant priest…actually I don’t think it is either. It is just an illustration. The guy that I see there is not from any denomination in particular.

Now…Do these two example really constitute being anti Catholic? Be reasonable. Again, I sense much anger in you. It is not good for you.

 

[PaulDupre1]

Texan,

Again you judge based on assumptions! Yes, I am aware of it! It is in Mormon Doctrine, but Bruce R. McKonkie retracted and for a good reason …because the great and abominable church is not the Catholic church…According to the scriptures, the “great and abominable church” and “whore of all the earth” refers to any organization that opposes the true Church of Jesus Christ. The Church does not teach or endorse the idea that these terms refer to any specific religion or organization. It is clear that in cases where past church authorities have modified this definition through speculation, that the First Presidency has firmly declared those speculations to be in error.

Ah, so the past prophets and apostles were not really prophets and apostles and the Great and Abominable Church is the Catholics and the Protestants. Thanks for the clarification.

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)

 

[PaulDupre1]

That is an interesting comment. I have been Mormon for many years, but never noticed that Mormons were anti-Catholics.

Then apparently you haven’t been paying attention. Mormons, like JWs, love to tell horror stories about Catholics and Catholicism.

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)

 

[TexanKnight]

Texan,

You have a way of going to the extreme! Your comments in general seem to be full of anger and resentment. You should let it go! I understand you had a bad experience in the Mormon Church, but ask God to forgive whoever offended you and let it go!

lol…it is a typical tactic of the LDS who come here who claim those who point out the truth about your “church” have resentment. I have none. I simply am amazed by how little you seem to know and how you have to bend over backwards to make things work for you

Much of this material explains why God had to create this world and why we had to come here and go through this. The fall makes a lot more sense when we acknowledge the doctrine of Pre mortal existence.

Ah…so YOU think God made a command just so that Adam (who is really your god according to BY) and Eve could disobey him? That is twisted.

As far as Joseph Smith there is history, there is stories, there is anti Mormon stories, poorly documented history, etc. Please take all that into consideration when judging Joseph Smith.

Oh…I do. I have read plenty. I have read his diary. I have read Rough Stone Rolling, I have read LDS biographies and etc etc etc. He was a criminal and an egomaniac who made people build him houses saying God commanded it, took wives of others, and made himself a general, mayor and prophet.

 

[TexanKnight]

Texan,

Again you judge based on assumptions! Yes, I am aware of it! It is in Mormon Doctrine, but Bruce R. McKonkie retracted and for a good reason …because the great and abominable church is not the Catholic church…According to the scriptures, the “great and abominable church” and “whore of all the earth” refers to any organization that opposes the true Church of Jesus Christ. The Church does not teach or endorse the idea that these terms refer to any specific religion or organization. It is clear that in cases where past church authorities have modified this definition through speculation, that the First Presidency has firmly declared those speculations to be in error.

Ah…so now you claim you HAVE heard Mormons say bad stuff about Catholics. Earlier, you said you hadn’t. Now you admit an LDS Apostle absolutely did. So did others, like past prophets. And McKonkie only retracted it because he was ordered to, not because he chose to.

About the Priest in the temple…maybe you saw a Catholic father…I had the impression it was a Protestant priest…actually I don’t think it is either. It is just an illustration. The guy that I see there is not from any denomination in particular.

Well, since he wore a clerical collar more commonly associated with Catholic priests…and given what McKonkie wrote…and given that, as a missionary in a Catholic Country, we were taught to bash the Catholic Church in order to gain converts, I suppose I am justified in my opinion

N

 

[taylorf]

Texan,

Again you judge based on assumptions! Yes, I am aware of it! It is in Mormon Doctrine, but Bruce R. McKonkie retracted and for a good reason …because the great and abominable church is not the Catholic church…

About the Priest in the temple…maybe you saw a Catholic father…I had the impression it was a Protestant priest…actually I don’t think it is either. It is just an illustration. The guy that I see there is not from any denomination in particular.

Now…Do these two example really constitute being anti Catholic? Be reasonable. Again, I sense much anger in you. It is not good for you.

“It is also to the Book of Mormon to which we turn for the plainest description of the Catholic Church as the great and abominable church.”

This is anti-Catholic and he retracted it because he was not led by the Spirit and he was not a real apostle. Just another guy like Brigham Young preaching a false gospel. I’m 38 and have clear recollection in my youth of teachings that Catholicism was the whore of the earth. When my wife and I left the church, both sets of parents were disappointed but rather accepting. Once we told them we were investigating Catholicism…wow…they wanted nothing to do with us spiritually. It was as if we committed the greatest offense.

The fact that you don’t identify the priest in the ceremony with Catholicism tells me you weren’t really raised Catholic or that you’re being intellectually dishonest. Sorry, you lose credibility with every post you make.

 

[evanfaust]

Just face it, it is a failed prophecy, or no prophecy at all. A prophet who does not prophesy is not a prophet. No?

You seem to reject all of the many prophecies made by Joseph Smith. I don’t know if you read all of them, but here is a link to some of them, just in case you have not read them yet.

jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_prophecies.shtml#rigdon

If you read the diary of many members of the church you will find dozens of prophecies on a personal level to the people Joseph Smith met that were completely fulfilled. Some of these prophecies are compiled in the book “Remembering Joseph”, written by Mark L McConkie, which is a recollection of those who knew the prophet Joseph Smith.

 

[evanfaust]

"The fact that you don’t identify the priest in the ceremony with Catholicism tells me you weren’t really raised Catholic or that you’re being intellectually dishonest. Sorry, you lose credibility with every post you make.

Have you forgotten that the movie change periodically and that there are several of them?

When was the last time you went to the temple?

 

[TexanKnight]

Have you forgotten that the movie change periodically and that there are several of them?

When was the last time you went to the temple?

I went last in 1989. I also saw live ceremony at IF Temple. I attended many temples…it was a Catholic priest.

 

[evanfaust]

Oh…I do. I have read plenty. I have read his diary. I have read Rough Stone Rolling, I have read LDS biographies and etc etc etc. He was a criminal and an egomaniac who made people build him houses saying God commanded it, took wives of others, and made himself a general, mayor and prophet.

I have read all those myself…and yet we come to opposite conclusions.

That is why I believe in this saying:

**"We don’t see things as they are, we see them as we are.” **

 

[taylorf]

Have you forgotten that the movie change periodically and that there are several of them?

When was the last time you went to the temple?

August 2006. So what?

Too young to have seen the priest or blood oath. Of course the movie changed. So has mormon “doctrine” because it’s subject to trends in social views and circumstances that affect its income potential.

 

[Stephen168]

In 1909 James E. Talmage wrote The Great Apostasy, in which he gathered New Testament passages that Latter-day Saints……….

That is an interesting comment. I have been Mormon for many years, but never noticed that Mormons were anti-Catholics.

Really? Did you actually read The Great Apostasy? Mormonism is based on being anti-Catholic.

What you are saying about Mormons ignoring Science, history is some kind of stereotype …Mormons are counseled to attend university and get as much education as possible.

When a Mormon discovers that Joseph Smith was wrong about the Book of Mormon because of science he is excommunicated. When I ask you to explain Joseph Smith being wrong because of science, you ask to change the subject and then stop responding. This is because science, history and reason show Joseph Smith to be a false prophet, and the Book of Mormon to be 19th century American fiction.

You talk about science…well, have you thought that the Catholic Church and all other churches are in the same boat? How about the theory of evolution? How about the age of man on the earth?

Your ignorance of Catholic teaching is showing again. I do understand it wasn’t long ago that Mormonism believed the earth was only 6000 years old.

How about Noah’s story or many other stories in the Bible?

The Catholic scriptures are Christ’s revelation in the New Testament. The New Testament is scientifically proven to be a first century document. The Book of Mormon has scientifically been proven to be a 19th century document.

Another thing is that many people just look at one side of the explanation or one side of the story…they just accept it and it becomes popular knowledge and acceptable, but few people really look at the other side before they form an opinion.

No Mormon has even been able to explain the other side. Like you, most Mormons never try, they just stop responding. They claim another side and disappear.

I say that if you are happy in the Catholic Church…then you should stay and feel great about it. I recognize Catholics as a good force in society and have the best wishes and feelings towards Catholics.

Yes, I actually have taken the time to truly understand the teachings of my Church. I didn’t walk away from the the Church started by Jesus Christ, as a historical fact. I also took some time to learn about Mormonism and I know the Book of Mormon is fiction which is contrary to the ‘revelation’ given by Joseph Smith.

 

[evanfaust]

Ah…so now you claim you HAVE heard Mormons say bad stuff about Catholics. Earlier, you said you hadn’t. Now you admit an LDS Apostle absolutely did. So did others, like past prophets. And McKonkie only retracted it because he was ordered to, not because he chose to.

Now…are you going to tell me that in the Catholic Seminary they don’t teach about the Mormon Church and have their own interpretation of Mormonism? Are you going to say that there is not one bit of negative information about Mormons in the Catholic Church?

If you have a few or maybe even more than that I still would not consider Catholics being anti Mormon.

Now, because McConkie wrote a few lines about Catholics in a book that is not even officially published by the church you consider Mormons anti Catholics? That is not what I consider anti Catholic. Of course I heard some things about the Catholic Church, but it was far from being considered anti Catholic in my opinion.

To me anti something is when you distribute material against that organization in mass as many protestants do to the Mormon Church. They publish fliers, booklets or entire books and even entire websites against the Mormons. They even go on TV and preach against it when they have the opportunity. When you do an internet search about a Mormon topic you typically find 60%, 80% anti Mormon literature. That is anti something. Do you see what I am saying here?

 

[Stephen168]

Now…are you going to tell me that in the Catholic Seminary they don’t teach about the Mormon Church and have their own interpretation of Mormonism? Are you going to say that there is not one bit of negative information about Mormons in the Catholic Church?

yes, because the Catholic Church does not rise or fall on the Status of Mormonism. Mormonism is just another of the many religious cults that pop up now and again.

 

[taylorf]

Now…are you going to tell me that in the Catholic Seminary they don’t teach about the Mormon Church and have their own interpretation of Mormonism? Are you going to say that there is not one bit of negative information about Mormons in the Catholic Church?

If you have a few or maybe even more than that I still would not consider Catholics being anti Mormon.

Now, because McConkie wrote a few lines about Catholics in a book that is not even officially published by the church you consider Mormons anti Catholics? That is not what I consider anti Catholic. Of course I heard some things about the Catholic Church, but it was far from being considered anti Catholic in my opinion.

To me anti something is when you distribute material against that organization in mass as many protestants do to the Mormon Church. They publish fliers, booklets or entire books and even entire websites against the Mormons. They even go on TV and preach against it when they have the opportunity. When you do an internet search about a Mormon topic you typically find 60%, 80% anti Mormon literature. That is anti something. Do you see what I am saying here?

Mormonism is nothing more than open source religion. The church provides a very basic structure of doctrine and then members are free to speculate and conclude to their own preferences as you do here. Members have their own definitions and interpretations of common words/phrases…just as long long as you pay tithing and can pass the temple recommend interview, you’re in good standing.

This only makes me realize how amazing the catechism is. The LDS church would never put something like this together.

 

[evanfaust]

Really? Did you actually read The Great Apostasy? Mormonism is based on being anti-Catholic.

I did read that book, but it was a historical book. How can you avoid it? I think he tried to show the historical facts of the apostasy. I posted what I consider anti. It seems to differ from your definition.

When a Mormon discovers that Joseph Smith was wrong about the Book of Mormon because of science he is excommunicated. When I ask you to explain Joseph Smith being wrong because of science, you ask to change the subject and then stop responding. This is because science, history and reason show Joseph Smith to be a false prophet, and the Book of Mormon to be 19th century American fiction.

How about those Mormons that accept both? Have you heard of them? By the way, they are the majority. Do you realize how many questions your guys asked me? And your conclusion is…he cannot explain it! There is only one Mormon responding the questions and that is me. Wow…do you realize that I work and have a busy life? I will address that question later since you want to know an explanation…but, will it matter in the end? Of course not…you will not like my answer and will continue to put me down…showing the good Christian that you are!

Yeah…I heard that the Book of Mormon is a 19th century a million times since I joined the Mormon Church…but, you did not do your homework. There is much support for the Book of Mormon.

Your ignorance of Catholic teaching is showing again. I do understand it wasn’t long ago that Mormonism believed the earth was only 6000 years old.

How about the Catholics? Torturing a man and unleashing the Inquisition on him because the Church and the Pope believed that the Sun revolved around the earth? Even the scriptures pointed into the opposite direction and yet they tortured or even killed anybody who thought otherwise…

Joshua 10:13 says “So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven” or Isaiah 40:22 that speaks of “the heavens stretched out as a curtain” above “the circle of the earth”?

You might have heard the opinion of someone in the Mormon church who believed about the 6000 years ago and you concluded that the entire Church believed in that.

In your understanding did Adam and Eve live 6000 years ago? And if so, how do you explain humans remains dated 20 thousand years ago? How about 100 thousand years ago? Humans before Adam and Eve. How do you explain that?

The Catholic scriptures are Christ’s revelation in the New Testament. The New Testament is scientifically proven to be a first century document. The Book of Mormon has scientifically been proven to be a 19th century document.

Does that make the Catholics the Church of Jesus Christ? Of course not! The Jewish people also had authentic scriptures for almost two thousand of years and yet they went into apostasy several times. That argument proves nothing!

No Mormon has even been able to explain the other side. Like you, most Mormons never try, they just stop responding. They claim another side and disappear.

I will respond your question…I already explained why I did not respond YET!!

 

[zaffiroborant]

Paul…If you want to call the partaking of the forbidden fruit “sin”, it will not make much difference. The only reason Mormons use the word transgression is because Adam and Eve figured out that partaking of the fruit was the only way to acquire knowledge, wisdom and procreate. As I recall there is only one verse that tells us that Adam and Eve realized they were naked, which was **after **partaking of the fruit. Can you tell me why they did not notice they were naked before the transgression?

The only thing God or Satan said is they would know good and evil, absolutely nothing in scripture about procreation and only Eve decided it was wisdom to disobey God. Since Adam and Eve only knew good before they ate the fruit, it’s obvious since they only knew God, and procreation is a result of their gaining knowledge of evil then in the LDS view procreation is evil. Catholics do not believe this nor do they believe that Adam and Eve could not have children before they ate the fruit. And since God told them to be fruitful and multiply before they ate it it is equally obvious that they could procreate.

My point is that the “eating of the fruit”, transformed their bodies, because they became mortal…that is the inheritance all mortals get. We behave in a certain way, we have the seeds of good and evil inside of us, and it is up to us to choose good over evil. But, we cannot deny our desires, that is something that we all have and if we are honest we all admit it. It is genetic to feel an attraction between opposite sex. It is not bad, as long there is love, respect and loyalty within the covenants of marriage, which was the case between Adam and Eve.

Before partaking the fruit Adam and Eve were similar to children…very innocent, they liked each other and felt attraction to each other in a different way, but they didn’t think about procreation or desires of the flesh. The structure of their bodies before the fruit was an innocent and eternal. I have not seen you demonstrate to me that they could have children before the fall.

Yet again you are just making stuff up, imaging you know what Adam and Eve were thinking and feeling.

As far as Mormon values…I think it is well recognized that Mormons have great values, including moral values. Now, I don’t think you want to open a can or worms about moral values. As you know I have much ammunition on the subject about the Catholic Church. But, we don’t need to go there…it is not necessary. Let’s limit the topics, so we don’t deviate too much from it.

The Catholic church has great values also, that 1.2 billion people don’t all conform to those values is irrelevant.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Now…are you going to tell me that in the Catholic Seminary they don’t teach about the Mormon Church and have their own interpretation of Mormonism?

Why in the world would a Catholic seminary teach anything about Mormonism? There are 2000 years of Catholic thought, to teach to seminarians, not to mention, pastoral care, how to counsel parishioners, how to run a parish. Sorry to be the one to inform you but outside of Mormonism itself, this board and a few other Mormon related boards (most of them former Mormon boards) no one really spends that much time thinking about your religion. People confuse you guys with the JW’s and the Amish for heavens sake.

Now, because McConkie wrote a few lines about Catholics in a book that is not even officially published by the church you consider Mormons anti Catholics? That is not what I consider anti Catholic. Of course I heard some things about the Catholic Church, but it was far from being considered anti Catholic in my opinion.

There is a long history of anti-Catholic vitriol from Mormon leaders. While you heard things about the Catholicism in church, in my entire life I never, I repeat never, heard anything about the LDS church in a Catholic church. One time, in one weekly bible study session, out of 9 years of such study, someone mentioned the LDS church, and that was a mention about how the LDS church was fighting same sex marriage in CA. That’s it the only mention in a Catholic setting, in my entire life, of the LDS church. I find your attitude of “Of course I heard some things about the Catholic Church” problematic. “Of course I heard” why “of course” why are LDS members spending time talking about the Catholic church? They’re not members they don’t know or understand the teachings of the Catholic church why are they talking about it. From my experience the “of course” would have to be “of course I never heard about the LDS at church, why would I?”

To me anti something is when you distribute material against that organization in mass as many protestants do to the Mormon Church. They publish fliers, booklets or entire books and even entire websites against the Mormons. They even go on TV and preach against it when they have the opportunity. When you do an internet search about a Mormon topic you typically find 60%, 80% anti Mormon literature. That is anti something. Do you see what I am saying here?

To me anti-Catholic is Talmages The Great Apostasy and you people read it an apparently talk about it frequently. It is a bilious diatribe against Catholicism that misrepresents and distorts history. It’s only aim a vicious attack on the religion of others.

 

[RebeccaJ]

You seem to reject all of the many prophecies made by Joseph Smith. I don’t know if you read all of them, but here is a link to some of them, just in case you have not read them yet.

jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_prophecies.shtml#rigdon

If you read the diary of many members of the church you will find dozens of prophecies on a personal level to the people Joseph Smith met that were completely fulfilled. Some of these prophecies are compiled in the book “Remembering Joseph”, written by Mark L McConkie, which is a recollection of those who knew the prophet Joseph Smith.

Prophecy must mean something different to you than it does to me.

Everything at the website you posted falls under one or more of the following:

• stating a prediction based on political climate, as any informed person can
• saying a person will do something, and then asking them to do it
• rewriting history
• recognizing God’s work in life and community
• building up oneself using God’s voice
• telling people what they want to hear
• twisting scripture
• guessing correctly some of the time at the outcome and circumstances of events (probabilities)

None of these are prophecy.

 

[zaffiroborant]

I did read that book, but it was a historical book. How can you avoid it? I think he tried to show the historical facts of the apostasy. I posted what I consider anti. It seems to differ from your definition.

Nonsense it was not a historical book, he wasn’t in any way qualified to write a of history of any sort. I was an ugly distortion of history it’s only purpose to stir up anti-Catholic feelings among members. Pure religious jingoism and yellow journalism.

How about the Catholics? Torturing a man and unleashing the Inquisition on him because the Church and the Pope believed that the Sun revolved around the earth?

More of that garbage that passes as history in your Sunday school and priesthood meetings I see, you really should read some actual history for a change.

You might have heard the opinion of someone in the Mormon church who believed about the 6000 years ago and you concluded that the entire Church believed in that.

Talk about serendipity, over on the Mormon Dialog and Discussion board there are a bunch of LDS members who are saying just that.