T
twopekinguys
Guest
It’s a “mis-tery”.
Mis-understood
Mis-translated
Mis-quoted
Unless of course it supports their mental gymnastic position, then of course, the scribe, and the translation was spot on.
- Status
Mis-understood
Mis-translated
Mis-quoted
Unless of course it supports their mental gymnastic position, then of course, the scribe, and the translation was spot on.
T
TexanKnight
Guest
The LDS god did not ever know the future. The LDS god said folks would go on mission who died before their missions…He said js would see stuff before he died that js did not see BECAUSE he died.wait a minute… God didn’t know Joseph would die before the age of 85??? Wouldn’t God at least revise his ‘revelation’ once it was obvious that it would not take place?
But…you cannot blame the lds god…he is just a man…sorta
P
PaulDupre1
Guest
Mormons are actually atheists. There are no Gods in their religion; just highly advanced men.
T
TexanKnight
Guest
very advanced ONCE SINFUL men…
P
PaulDupre1
Guest
True, but according to Mormonism, there must be opposition in all things and everyone, including God, must live through a human life so He will “understand” what being human is all about. So we must sin in order to understand righteousness.
So where does that leave Jesus? Was he without sin? If so, how could he possibly understand what it is like to sin and to repent? According to Mormonism, either Jesus sinned or he doesn’t really understand the process of repentance.
Let’s see… according to Evan, marital relations are lustful and therefore sinful. Mormon prophets and apostles teach that Jesus was plurally married and sired children.
Ergo… The Mormon Jesus was a lust-filled sinner.
So I guess the Mormon Jesus really does understand sin and repentance, having experienced it and all. :nope:
Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)
T
TexanKnight
Guest
Thank you, God, for leading me out of the lds church and into truth. The truth of THE one and only God…the God who never changes, and never changed.
P
PaulDupre1
Guest
Amen, brother!
J
Janderich
Guest
I need not test all that was ever said by Joseph. Nor do I need to determine all the scribal errors, for the test of a prophet is defined by John’s words, “for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy” (Rev 19:10). The “testimony of Jesus” is a witness of Son by the Father. Joseph was a prophet, for he truly spake of what he had witnessed:
Man’s false tests of perceived infallibility and expected perfection are not how God defines a prophet. They never have been, they never will be.
K
kimg901
Guest
So as I have said as many others here. If not all the Apostles died, then how is your church true? Your church says that an apostacy occurred after the death of the last Apostle but John never died right? So no need for a restoration?
P
PaulDupre1
Guest
Yes, but which Jesus? The Christian Jesus who is The infinite and eternal God the Son who humbled Himself to take on human flesh to suffer and die for us to pay the eternal price for our sins and open the way to heaven, or the Mormon Jesus who, like you, was just another spirit child of Heavenly Father who was elected to come to earth and perform the infinite and eternal atonement that no one who was not infinite and eternal could possibly perform?
The Mormon Jesus does not meet the biblical qualifications of a messiah, just as your apostles do not meet the biblical qualification to be apostles. (Acts 1:21-23).
Paul
Z
zaffiroborant
Guest
Then everyone who testifies of Jesus is a prophet and your Joseph and all the rest are of no more importance, or worthy of attention, than the lowest member of your church who testifies of Jesus.
T
taylorf
Guest
Yes you do. Not everything Joseph said was “thus saith The Lord” or voted on by the membership. The last test to determine when a prophet is acting as a prophet is to test by the Holy Ghost. So how do you determine this independent of every other member? How do you make sure that your answer is consistent with every other member?
T
TexanKnight
Guest
But…but…we cannot trust hardly anything that js said…it was almost ALWAYS written by scribes…AND Janderich said we cannot trust what his scribes write unless Janderich agree with said scribe…
J
Janderich
Guest
No, “testimony of Jesus” does not simply mean to speak about Christ, it is much more. Joseph said, “Salvation cannot come without revelation; it is in vain for anyone to minister without it. No man is a minister of Jesus Christ without being a Prophet. No man can be a minister of Jesus Christ except he has the testimony of Jesus; and this is the spirit of prophecy. Whenever salvation has been administered, it has been by testimony. Men of the present time testify of heaven and hell, and have never seen either; and I will say that no man knows these things without this” (TPJS p160).
T
TexanKnight
Guest
Your js also said there were men on the moon dressed as Quakers.
and he also had 9 different versions of an incredibly miraculous, unforgettable-unless-it-a-lie vision.
E
evanfaust
Guest
Paul…before I start talking about Prophets and prophecies I wanted to get this out of the way.
This posting and the one related to my comments on Adam and Eve are very offensive…and clearly untrue!
It makes me wonder if you honestly investigate what Mormons are really saying.
I do not consider myself lustful…I do not consider marital relations lustful and Mormons try their best to live the commandments of God as anybody else from any other Christian religion.
I do not agree with many things in the Catholic Church and other religions, but I do not doubt the sincerity and good intentions of their members.
What you just did here in this post is to throw mud and denigrate what is very dear and sacred to us.
These kinds of comments just make you less credible and make me question whether you engage in debate to honestly and truthfully investigate the issues.
E
evanfaust
Guest
Before we examine the prophecies you posted I want to post an analysis made by the Mormon scholar John Tvedtnes. This is what he said.
*Based on the false premise that “all you need is one false prophecy to have a false prophet,” some critics have ignored many of Joseph Smith’s prophecies and have zeroed in on ones they consider to be false. But they typically identify unfulfilled commandments, opinions, and counsel as “false prophecies.” In doing so, they forsake the rules laid out in Deuteronomy 18:20-22, ignoring the fact that the passage defines a false prophecy as one uttered in the name of the Lord which does not come to pass.
The main problem is that the critics do not apply these same standards to biblical prophecies. And when we try to show that, by these standards, many of the biblical prophets fail the tests they have set up for Joseph Smith, we are accused of “Bible-slamming.” To those who ascribe more divinity to the Bible than to God, such a “sin” is worse than blasphemy itself. Honesty, however, impels us to submit the biblical prophets to the same tests as those applied to Joseph Smith.
For this reason, following the logic of the critics, we would have to conclude that Moses-to whom the revelation in Deuteronomy 18:20-22 is ascribed-was a false prophet. In Numbers 25:13, he said, in the name of the Lord, that Phinehas, his grand nephew, would hold the priesthood eternally. But if Hebrews 7:11-12 is correct, the Aaronic priesthood is not eternal. In this particular example, Moses fills the requirement for the test of Deuteronomy much more closely than does Joseph Smith in most of the examples of “false prophecies” cited by the critics. How, then, can Latter-day Saints accept both Joseph Smith and Moses as true prophets, regarding their prophecies as divinely-inspired? The answer lies in the fact that prophecy is typically conditional.
*Based on the false premise that “all you need is one false prophecy to have a false prophet,” some critics have ignored many of Joseph Smith’s prophecies and have zeroed in on ones they consider to be false. But they typically identify unfulfilled commandments, opinions, and counsel as “false prophecies.” In doing so, they forsake the rules laid out in Deuteronomy 18:20-22, ignoring the fact that the passage defines a false prophecy as one uttered in the name of the Lord which does not come to pass.
The main problem is that the critics do not apply these same standards to biblical prophecies. And when we try to show that, by these standards, many of the biblical prophets fail the tests they have set up for Joseph Smith, we are accused of “Bible-slamming.” To those who ascribe more divinity to the Bible than to God, such a “sin” is worse than blasphemy itself. Honesty, however, impels us to submit the biblical prophets to the same tests as those applied to Joseph Smith.
For this reason, following the logic of the critics, we would have to conclude that Moses-to whom the revelation in Deuteronomy 18:20-22 is ascribed-was a false prophet. In Numbers 25:13, he said, in the name of the Lord, that Phinehas, his grand nephew, would hold the priesthood eternally. But if Hebrews 7:11-12 is correct, the Aaronic priesthood is not eternal. In this particular example, Moses fills the requirement for the test of Deuteronomy much more closely than does Joseph Smith in most of the examples of “false prophecies” cited by the critics. How, then, can Latter-day Saints accept both Joseph Smith and Moses as true prophets, regarding their prophecies as divinely-inspired? The answer lies in the fact that prophecy is typically conditional.
T
TexanKnight
Guest
T
TexanKnight
Guest
E
evanfaust
Guest
Specific biblical examples
Be careful in how you apply Deut. 18:22, for you threaten to reject some true prophets in the Bible! There are several examples in the Bible where a true prophet prophesied something which did not happen as he stated.
Jonah
Perhaps the clearest example is found in the story of Jonah, who was told by God to prophecy to the people of Nineveh. Jonah eventually did what he was told and prophesied the simple clear prophecy that the people would be destroyed in 40 days (Jonah 3:4). The time frame was clear and no loopholes were offered, just imminent doom. The scriptures state explicitly, however, that the people repented of their sins and that God changed his mind, sparing the city.
Jonah was “displeased … exceedingly” and “very angry” (Jonah 4:1) about God’s decision, perhaps because it made Jonah look bad. In spite of what might look like an “incorrect” prophecy, and in spite of Jonah’s obvious shortcomings, he was clearly a prophet of God, delivering the precise message that God had given him, but it was ultimately the conditional nature of prophecy that determined the outcome.
Ezekiel
The prophet Ezekiel provides another example of how true prophets may prophesy things that do not happen exactly as one might expect. In Ezekiel chapters 26, 27, and 28, we read that Tyre (a fortified island city) would be conquered, destroyed, and plundered by King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon. The riches of Tyre, it was stated, would go to Babylon (Ezekiel 26:12). Nebuchadnezzar’s army did lay siege to Tyre, and its inhabitants were afflicted, apparently so much that they shaved their heads bald, exactly as prophesied in Ezekiel 27:31.
However, the 13-year Babylonian siege apparently was not quite as successful as Ezekiel had predicted, perhaps because the land-based tactics of Babylonian sieges were less effective against a fortified island city with significant maritime power. The result of the siege may have been a compromise or treaty rather than total destruction and plunder, for (Ezekiel 29:17-20) reports that the predicted plundering did not take place. Almost as if in compensation, the Lord now announces that He will give Egypt to the Babylonians, which is the theme of chapter 29 (Ezekiel 29:17-20):
17 And it came to pass in the seven and twentieth year, in the first month, in the first day of the month, the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
18 Son of man, Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon caused his army to serve a great service against Tyrus: every head was made bald, and every shoulder was peeled: yet had he no wages, nor his army, for Tyrus, for the service that he had served against it:
19 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will give the land of Egypt unto Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon; and he shall take her multitude, and take her spoil, and take her prey; and it shall be the wages for his army.
20 I have given him the land of Egypt for his labour wherewith he served against it, because they wrought for me, saith the Lord GOD. (emphasis added)
Tyre is no more, but its complete destruction did not occur during the Babylonian siege, and the Babylonian army did not get the riches of Tyre as has been prophesied. It is Ezekiel himself who reports this "prophetic failure.
The purpose in raising this example is not to question the wisdom of the Lord, nor the truthfulness of the Bible, but to point out that an overly critical attitude and a black-and-white application of Deut. 18:22 may reject even true, Biblical prophets. If we try hard enough to find reasons to reject a prophet, we will surely succeed, but we must beware lest we judge unwisely and reject those whom God has sent and anointed.
Jeremiah
Another example to consider is the prophet Jeremiah—a great and inspired prophet—who prophesied that king Zedekiah would “die in peace” (Jeremiah 34:4-5). Critics could argue that this prophecy did not prove to be true, for Zedekiah saw his sons killed by the conquering Babylonians and was himself blinded and put in prison, where he died in captivity—not in peace (Jeremiah 52:10-11). Of course, the point is that he would not be killed by the sword, but die of natural causes—albeit in prison—yet to the critics, it may look like a case of a false prophecy. This case is certainly less clear-cut than the prophecy of Ezekiel discussed above, yet also serves to warn us against harsh judgments.
Nathan
Other examples include Nathan:
In 2 Samuel 7:5-17, we read that the prophet Nathan unequivocally prophesied to David that through his son Solomon the Davidic empire would be established “forever,” that the children of Israel would dwell in the promised land “and move no more,” and that the “children of wickedness” would no longer afflict them. These things are quite clearly stated. No conditions are attached to these promises, none whatsoever.
Yet this prophecy, interpreted literally, clearly did not prove successful. Again human sin or choice will affect whether God will choose to bless or punish a people. This is implicit in all such prophecies.
en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Prophecies/The_prophetic_test_in_Deuteronomy_18
Be careful in how you apply Deut. 18:22, for you threaten to reject some true prophets in the Bible! There are several examples in the Bible where a true prophet prophesied something which did not happen as he stated.
Jonah
Perhaps the clearest example is found in the story of Jonah, who was told by God to prophecy to the people of Nineveh. Jonah eventually did what he was told and prophesied the simple clear prophecy that the people would be destroyed in 40 days (Jonah 3:4). The time frame was clear and no loopholes were offered, just imminent doom. The scriptures state explicitly, however, that the people repented of their sins and that God changed his mind, sparing the city.
Jonah was “displeased … exceedingly” and “very angry” (Jonah 4:1) about God’s decision, perhaps because it made Jonah look bad. In spite of what might look like an “incorrect” prophecy, and in spite of Jonah’s obvious shortcomings, he was clearly a prophet of God, delivering the precise message that God had given him, but it was ultimately the conditional nature of prophecy that determined the outcome.
Ezekiel
The prophet Ezekiel provides another example of how true prophets may prophesy things that do not happen exactly as one might expect. In Ezekiel chapters 26, 27, and 28, we read that Tyre (a fortified island city) would be conquered, destroyed, and plundered by King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon. The riches of Tyre, it was stated, would go to Babylon (Ezekiel 26:12). Nebuchadnezzar’s army did lay siege to Tyre, and its inhabitants were afflicted, apparently so much that they shaved their heads bald, exactly as prophesied in Ezekiel 27:31.
However, the 13-year Babylonian siege apparently was not quite as successful as Ezekiel had predicted, perhaps because the land-based tactics of Babylonian sieges were less effective against a fortified island city with significant maritime power. The result of the siege may have been a compromise or treaty rather than total destruction and plunder, for (Ezekiel 29:17-20) reports that the predicted plundering did not take place. Almost as if in compensation, the Lord now announces that He will give Egypt to the Babylonians, which is the theme of chapter 29 (Ezekiel 29:17-20):
17 And it came to pass in the seven and twentieth year, in the first month, in the first day of the month, the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
18 Son of man, Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon caused his army to serve a great service against Tyrus: every head was made bald, and every shoulder was peeled: yet had he no wages, nor his army, for Tyrus, for the service that he had served against it:
19 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will give the land of Egypt unto Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon; and he shall take her multitude, and take her spoil, and take her prey; and it shall be the wages for his army.
20 I have given him the land of Egypt for his labour wherewith he served against it, because they wrought for me, saith the Lord GOD. (emphasis added)
Tyre is no more, but its complete destruction did not occur during the Babylonian siege, and the Babylonian army did not get the riches of Tyre as has been prophesied. It is Ezekiel himself who reports this "prophetic failure.
The purpose in raising this example is not to question the wisdom of the Lord, nor the truthfulness of the Bible, but to point out that an overly critical attitude and a black-and-white application of Deut. 18:22 may reject even true, Biblical prophets. If we try hard enough to find reasons to reject a prophet, we will surely succeed, but we must beware lest we judge unwisely and reject those whom God has sent and anointed.
Jeremiah
Another example to consider is the prophet Jeremiah—a great and inspired prophet—who prophesied that king Zedekiah would “die in peace” (Jeremiah 34:4-5). Critics could argue that this prophecy did not prove to be true, for Zedekiah saw his sons killed by the conquering Babylonians and was himself blinded and put in prison, where he died in captivity—not in peace (Jeremiah 52:10-11). Of course, the point is that he would not be killed by the sword, but die of natural causes—albeit in prison—yet to the critics, it may look like a case of a false prophecy. This case is certainly less clear-cut than the prophecy of Ezekiel discussed above, yet also serves to warn us against harsh judgments.
Nathan
Other examples include Nathan:
In 2 Samuel 7:5-17, we read that the prophet Nathan unequivocally prophesied to David that through his son Solomon the Davidic empire would be established “forever,” that the children of Israel would dwell in the promised land “and move no more,” and that the “children of wickedness” would no longer afflict them. These things are quite clearly stated. No conditions are attached to these promises, none whatsoever.
Yet this prophecy, interpreted literally, clearly did not prove successful. Again human sin or choice will affect whether God will choose to bless or punish a people. This is implicit in all such prophecies.
en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Prophecies/The_prophetic_test_in_Deuteronomy_18
- Status