False Prophesies of LDS Prophets

[Telstar]

Excellent answer on the Cana wedding. You have convinced me thoroughly that was not Jesus’ wedding.

Thank you. I hope it helps you in your faith journey.

It never mentions him inhaling, either.

Would it shake your faith if evidence came out that he was married?

It will never be found, so I’m pretty comfortable in knowing that He was never married, except to His Spiritual Bride, the Catholic Church.

If it were important that he was single, then the scriptures would have stated that he never took a wife.

And my reply to that is: If it were important that he was married, then the scriptures would have stated that he took a wife.

The fact that it says nothing about it suggests that it’s not an important issue; that Jesus’ marital status is simply none of our business.

On the contrary, I think it’s a very important issue. If He was married, and it was *important *that He was married, there would most certainly be some kind of mention of it, but, there isn’t a word about it. Jesus mentions marriage many times, but never even hints that He’s married.

 

[TexanKnight]

Evan:

Ok…tell you what. IF it is a "restoration, you should be able to easily prove that is is exactly like the early church…right? So…show me

1. Where the early church had 15 apostles like you do
2. Where the early church had Stakes
3. Where the early church had presidents
4. Where the early church had Relief Society.
5. Where the early did marriages for the dead
6. Where the early church decided to have temples all over Christendom
7. Where the early church refused to let blacks hold the priesthood
8. Where the early church was racist against blacks
9. Where the early church had blood oaths
10. Where the early church had its leaders steal wives from other members
11. Where the early church used bread and water in its meetings
12. Where the early church assigned topics for children to give talks during the weekly meeting
13. Where the early church had teenagers blessing the Eucharist
14. Where the early leaders of the early church tried to convince other church members to wife swap
15. where the early Church “prophets” set themselves up as mayors and generals in full military garb
16. Where the early church prophets demanded that the members build houses for them because God ordered it
17. Where there were “wards” in the early church
18. Where only affluent members were chosen by God to lead.
19. Where the early church invested in huge financial projects like malls
20. Where the early church hired assassins like BY did.

Now, I know you will dodge this challenge like you have dodged all challenges. But, I am truly anxious for you to show me where these things existed in the early church you allegedly have restored

I will be waiting.

 

[Sabacthani]

And my reply to that is: If it were important that he was married, then the scriptures would have stated that he took a wife.

Agreed. And if it were important that he were single, then the scriptures would have stated that he was single. Especially since marriage was the norm of the day. An unmarried religious teacher would have come under fire for that fact. Remember, the Pharisees and Sadducees in the Bible were as nitpicky and obsessed with finding fault with Jesus. If he was single, they would have made an issue of that. If all his disciples were single, they would have made a huge issue about that. The fact that it’s not recorded in the gospels suggests that either (1) it isn’t true, or (2) it’s not important.

Did the prophet Nathan have a wife? Absence of evidence isn’t evidence of absence.

 

[Sabacthani]

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11865901&postcount=73

Thank you for sharing your views. I take issue with the following:

We see inJesushow sexual abstinence can bring out the profound spiritual reality of a person. It helps to lift man’s whole sexual potential on to another plane

Jesus profound spiritual nature didn’t come about through sexual abstinence or long fasting or stymied masculinity. He’s Jehovah, the creator of heaven and earth, the word made flesh. He invites us to follow him, to strive for holiness, and to become one with him, but that’s through his power.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

Agreed. And if it were important that he were single, then the scriptures would have stated that he was single. Especially since marriage was the norm of the day. An unmarried religious teacher would have come under fire for that fact. Remember, the Pharisees and Sadducees in the Bible were as nitpicky and obsessed with finding fault with Jesus. If he was single, they would have made an issue of that. If all his disciples were single, they would have made a huge issue about that. The fact that it’s not recorded in the gospels suggests that either (1) it isn’t true, or (2) it’s not important.

Did the prophet Nathan have a wife? Absence of evidence isn’t evidence of absence.

But you also can’t make an assumption based on no evidence.

There is simply nothing that suggests that Jesus would have had a wife. Indeed, if he is God incarnate, with a certain and short earthly ministry, why would he need to take a wife? If he did have a wife, I’d imagine that people would have flocked to see his wife and children, that she would probably be venerated as some saint. But we have none of that at all.

 

[FCEGM]

. . .Jesus profound spiritual nature didn’t come about through sexual abstinence or long fasting or stymied masculinity. He’s Jehovah, the creator of heaven and earth, the word made flesh. He invites us to follow him, to strive for holiness, and to become one with him, but that’s through his power.

His Divine spiritual nature is lived-out as a Man in whom all the natural urges of man exist and are held in control; this strengthens Him as Man so as to give Himself totally to the One Bride He is preparing for the Wedding Feast of the Lamb. This obviates the need to express Himself in union with any given woman. Further, there was/is nothing of a “stymied masculinity” in Jesus or any man who by His grace follow His example of giving himself totally to the service and glory of Father so as to bring His Bride, the Church, to its fulfillment in Him.

 

[twopekinguys]

It never mentions him inhaling, either.

I hate to shoot your odd little argument down here, but, have you read Mark 15:37? (NIV)

“With a loud cry, Jesus **breathed **his last.”

Here’s the thing. This thread is about False Prophesies of the LDS Prophets. Not about Jesus’ divine nature, etc.

I want to hear how you answer TK’s list of false prophecies.

Just sayin…

 

[Telstar]

Agreed. And if it were important that he were single, then the scriptures would have stated that he was single. Especially since marriage was the norm of the day. An unmarried religious teacher would have come under fire for that fact. Remember, the Pharisees and Sadducees in the Bible were as nitpicky and obsessed with finding fault with Jesus. If he was single, they would have made an issue of that. If all his disciples were single, they would have made a huge issue about that. The fact that it’s not recorded in the gospels suggests that either (1) it isn’t true, or (2) it’s not important.

Did the prophet Nathan have a wife? Absence of evidence isn’t evidence of absence.

You claim to agree, but restate your original point which is the complete opposite of mine. That’s not agreement in my book. And, I still disagree with your point.

I have no idea if Nathan had a wife or not. We’re not discussing him, we’re discussing Jesus, so Nathan’s marital status has nothing to do with it. Jesus is the Son of God. Jesus changed many things through His example and teaching, and a great many of those teachings were disapproved by the Jews. If marriage was absolutely necessary for all Jews (which I would like to see something to that effect from the Bible), then that’s just one more thing that Jesus changed. I have no problem with that, at all. The Pharisees & Sadducees had so many other things to complain about, Jesus not being married was probably not high on their priority list.

From St. Paul:
1 Corinthians 7:"[1] Now concerning the thing whereof you wrote to me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. [2] But for fear of fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband. [3] Let the husband render the debt to his wife, and the wife also in like manner to the husband. [4] The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband. And in like manner the husband also hath not power of his own body, but the wife. [5] Defraud not one another, except, perhaps, by consent, for a time, that you may give yourselves to prayer; and return together again, lest Satan tempt you for your incontinency. [6] But I speak this by indulgence, not by commandment. [7] For I would that all men were even as myself: but every one hath his proper gift from God; one after this manner, and another after that. [8] But I say to the unmarried, and to the widows: It is good for them if they so continue, even as I."

Where do you think Paul got the idea that it was a good thing for some men and women to remain celibate? He was a practicing Jew. In fact, he was a zealous Pharisee that persecuted the Christians before he was converted by Jesus in a vision. As he says, it’s not for everyone, but it is clearly a calling from God.

 

[campeador]

You claim to agree, but restate your original point which is the complete opposite of mine. That’s not agreement in my book. And, I still disagree with your point.

I have no idea if Nathan had a wife or not. We’re not discussing him, we’re discussing Jesus, so Nathan’s marital status has nothing to do with it. Jesus is the Son of God. Jesus changed many things through His example and teaching, and a great many of those teachings were disapproved by the Jews. If marriage was absolutely necessary for all Jews (which I would like to see something to that effect from the Bible), then that’s just one more thing that Jesus changed. I have no problem with that, at all. The Pharisees & Sadducees had so many other things to complain about, Jesus not being married was probably not high on their priority list.

From St. Paul:
1 Corinthians 7:"[1] Now concerning the thing whereof you wrote to me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. [2] But for fear of fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband. [3] Let the husband render the debt to his wife, and the wife also in like manner to the husband. [4] The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband. And in like manner the husband also hath not power of his own body, but the wife. [5] Defraud not one another, except, perhaps, by consent, for a time, that you may give yourselves to prayer; and return together again, lest Satan tempt you for your incontinency. [6] But I speak this by indulgence, not by commandment. [7] For I would that all men were even as myself: but every one hath his proper gift from God; one after this manner, and another after that. [8] But I say to the unmarried, and to the widows: It is good for them if they so continue, even as I."

Where do you think Paul got the idea that it was a good thing for some men and women to remain celibate? He was a practicing Jew. In fact, he was a zealous Pharisee that persecuted the Christians before he was converted by Jesus in a vision. As he says, it’s not for everyone, but it is clearly a calling from God.

Yes Lori and not only St. Paul but Jesus himself talks about celibacy:

10 His disciples say unto him: If the case of a man with his wife be so, it is not good to marry.

11 He said to them: All receive not this word, but they to whom it is given.

12 For there are eunuchs, who were born so from their mother’s womb: and there are eunuchs, who were made so by men: and there are eunuchs, who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven. He that can receive, let him receive it.
haydock1859.tripod.com/id37.html

 

[LivingWaters7]

As an aside, it’s always important to remember that there are married clergy in the Catholic Church. Not only permanent deacons and a few priests in the Roman/Latin church (mostly converts from the Anglican Communion that were priests in that communion, if I remember correctly), but Eastern Catholic priests are allowed to be married men (prior to ordination to the priesthood), as is also the case in the Orthodox Church. Bishops however are unmarried men in all cases at this time.

 

[Nebuchanezzzzzz]

I hate to shoot your odd little argument down here, but, have you read Mark 15:37? (NIV)

“With a loud cry, Jesus **breathed **his last.”

If it came with a cry, that would be an exhale. Does God need to inhale in order to exhale, or can he exhale ex-nihilo?

 

[Nebuchanezzzzzz]

The 12 were called to leave everything they had to follow Jesus. Jesus specifically states, in the parable of the rich man, that saving the rich is like pulling a camel through the eye of a needle. This isn’t a problem specific to LDS members. Building up wealth is one of the temptations of Satan. The thing is, to stop for a while and think about what you are doing, and ask yourself what in your life aligns to the life of Christ, and what does not.

A billion dollar investment in a mall gives an indication that no one in charge of your church is asking this question. But as has been pointed out by Kathleen, this world is materialistic and that orientation towards the material things is a temptation for all who seek to follow Christ.

The Book of Mormon points that out too. That’s a major BoM theme.

Mormons Suffer Pope Envy

This article demonstrates that Mormons actually have been asking the very question you asked.

One of the new pope’s signature elements has been his decided emphasis on voluntary simplicity. He has eschewed the luxury of the Vatican’s papal residence in favor of unpretentious guest quarters. He has refused to have a household staff, tending to his own personal needs.

The guy sometimes rides the bus to work, for heaven’s sake, and his personal car is a used Renault with 190,000 miles on it.

Mormon leaders have also traditionally emphasized the importance of frugality and simplicity. Reporters who cover the LDS Church have commented on how modest the homes of General Authorities tend to be compared to, say, the multimillion-dollar spreads of televangelists. I don’t doubt that President Monson lives these values of frugality in his personal life — especially since he, unlike many other GAs, did not have a lucrative career before being called into full-time church service.

That’s why it was particularly surprising and unpleasant when, last year, President Monson and his two counselors threw themselves so wholeheartedly in the opening of the City Creek Center in Salt Lake City. Funded by a for-profit division of the LDS Church, the luxury shopping mall has certainly done much to revitalize the downtown area and has created approximately 2,000 jobs.[/tweetable] While I can see a positive side of the development issue, I could have gone my whole life without seeing the man Mormons regard as a prophet of God saying, “One, two, three . . . let’s go shopping!” before cutting a gigantic red ribbon to open an opulent consumerist hub.

My faith took a hit that day. My church had spent somewhere between $1.5 billion and $2 billion so that affluent people could have access to Tiffany’s and, ironically enough, an apparel store called “True Religion."

 

[evanfaust]

Please provide historical evidence for a singular, cohesive, ancient church that had the beliefs of Mormonism that are supposedly “restored”. Essentially, provide historical evidence for the ancient Church of Jesus Christ of Former-day Saints.

When Christ established his Church he did clarify and revealed many doctrines, which we see them being mentioned in the Bible, but just not stated enough for everyone to understand them. That is the Bible we have in its present form. Many pieces of important and relevant doctrines got lost or corrupted over time.

Some evidence of these doctrines can be further found in some of the writings of early fathers and other ancient documents. For example doctrines such as Pre Mortal existence, degrees of glory, potential of man becoming gods, baptism for the dead, baptism by immersion, etc, which are not explicitly mentioned in the Bible, but we see them being brought up in other ancient sources. Some of these doctrines were obscured and suppressed with the apostasies, not only the apostasy of the early primitive church, but the Israelites apostasies. That is what happens in an apostasy, books get lost, doctrines altered, corrupted and new ones are added.

The LDS Church not only restored what was lost during the time of Christ, but even things from the Old Testament, because the Lord promised to restore everything (Acts 3:19-21) in this epoch, the last days.

19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Some of the doctrines I mentioned before were restored in these latter days: degrees of glory in the resurrection, Pre Mortal existence of men, baptism for the dead, potential of men becoming like their Father in heaven, baptism by immersion. Other things that they had in the past were revelations from God, ongoing cannon of scriptures, prophets, apostles, seventies, temples, etc.

These doctrines and priesthood authority were restored with celestial manifestations and visitations from prophets and apostles of old, including the visitation of the father and the son. Celestial messengers in these last days were not only seen and heard by Joseph Smith alone, but by many credible people. Some celestial manifestations were eye witnessed by hundreds on people.

The gospel was preached to every nation and creature and then the end came, meaning that the Church of Christ with its authority and priesthood was not longer recognized in heaven. What came afterwards was an earthly organization. See the scripture below.

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. Mat 24:14

See what Doctor James E. Talmage has to say about the interpretation of this verse.

It is claimed by many that the “end” referred to in the passage quoted is not necessarily the close of the final dispensation, not what is commonly spoken of as the end of the world, but the closing up of the gospel dispensation then current; and in support of this interpretation it is urged that following the utterance quoted Christ proceeded to predict the calamities then awaiting Jerusalem. That during the period covered by the earthly ministry of the apostles, the gospel was preached in all the civilized nations of the eastern hemisphere, is evident alike from scripture and from the uncanonical writings of repute relating to that period. Paul speaks of the gospel as having been carried in his day to all the world, and as having been preached to every creature under heaven.

The Great Apostasy, James E Talmage, p36

According to Paul, the gospel had been preached to everyone.

…This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant. Col 1:23

Compare with Romans 10:18

But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. Rom 10:18

Then I remember the words of Christ…

Therefore say I unto you, the kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. Mat 21:43

 

[LivingWaters7]

When Christ established his Church he did clarify and revealed many doctrines, which we see them being mentioned in the Bible, but just not stated enough for everyone to understand them. That is the Bible we have in its present form. Many pieces of important and relevant doctrines got lost or corrupted over time.

Some evidence of these doctrines can be further found in some of the writings of early fathers and other ancient documents. For example doctrines such as Pre Mortal existence, degrees of glory, potential of man becoming gods, baptism for the dead, baptism by immersion, etc, which are not explicitly mentioned in the Bible, but we see them being brought up in other ancient sources. Some of these doctrines were obscured and suppressed with the apostasies, not only the apostasy of the early primitive church, but the Israelites apostasies. That is what happens in an apostasy, books get lost, doctrines altered, corrupted and new ones are added.

The LDS Church not only restored what was lost during the time of Christ, but even things from the Old Testament, because the Lord promised to restore everything (Acts 3:19-21) in this epoch, the last days.

19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Some of the doctrines I mentioned before were restored in these latter days: degrees of glory in the resurrection, Pre Mortal existence of men, baptism for the dead, potential of men becoming like their Father in heaven, baptism by immersion. Other things that they had in the past were revelations from God, ongoing cannon of scriptures, prophets, apostles, seventies, temples, etc.

These doctrines and priesthood authority were restored with celestial manifestations and visitations from prophets and apostles of old, including the visitation of the father and the son. Celestial messengers in these last days were not only seen and heard by Joseph Smith alone, but by many credible people. Some celestial manifestations were eye witnessed by hundreds on people.

The gospel was preached to every nation and creature and then the end came, meaning that the Church of Christ with its authority and priesthood was not longer recognized in heaven. What came afterwards was an earthly organization. See the scripture below.

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. Mat 24:14

See what Doctor James E. Talmage has to say about the interpretation of this verse.

It is claimed by many that the “end” referred to in the passage quoted is not necessarily the close of the final dispensation, not what is commonly spoken of as the end of the world, but the closing up of the gospel dispensation then current; and in support of this interpretation it is urged that following the utterance quoted Christ proceeded to predict the calamities then awaiting Jerusalem. That during the period covered by the earthly ministry of the apostles, the gospel was preached in all the civilized nations of the eastern hemisphere, is evident alike from scripture and from the uncanonical writings of repute relating to that period. Paul speaks of the gospel as having been carried in his day to all the world, and as having been preached to every creature under heaven.

The Great Apostasy, James E Talmage, p36

According to Paul, the gospel had been preached to everyone.

…This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant. Col 1:23

Compare with Romans 10:18

But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. Rom 10:18

Then I remember the words of Christ…

Therefore say I unto you, the kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. Mat 21:43

All of this, and you didn’t actually provide an answer to my question that you quoted in your reply:

“Please provide historical evidence for a singular, cohesive, ancient church that had the beliefs of Mormonism that are supposedly “restored”. Essentially, provide historical evidence for the ancient Church of Jesus Christ of Former-day Saints.”

Further, in the laundry list you provide, you merely make assertions without what I asked for: historical evidence. As I already mentioned, LDS apologists (“Restoring the Ancient Church” being a great example of this) refer to Gnostic and out of context ECF writings, yet still cannot provide evidence for a historical church that is being restored with all of these “evidences” found in one organization. That is because the ancient, historical Church looks Catholic/Orthodox, not LDS. It is ironic that Bickmore’s book is called “Restoring the Ancient Church”, yet his entire book provides no evidence of an “ancient church” (singular) that is being restored, and instead is a hodge podge of “evidences” from divergent groups and heretical teachings (LDS apologists seem to refer to Gnostic writings frequently).

 

[Nebuchanezzzzzz]

More recent LDS scholarship disavows Talmage’s earlier theory that Catholicism was apostate, and specifically identifies Gnostics, Ebionites, and … the other one whose name I can’t recall, as examples of apostates. Catholicism we see as a group that zealously tried to put the pieces back together after the great apostasy. See, e.g. Stephen Robinson’s article “Warring against the Saints”

 

[Nebuchanezzzzzz]

Since TwoPekingGuys asked, here’s my reply to TexanKnight.

The Coming of the Lord
President Smith then stated that the meeting had been called, because God had commanded it; and it was made known to him by vision and by the Holy Spirit. . . . it was the will of God that they should be ordained to the ministry and go forth to prune the vineyard for the last time, for the coming of the Lord, which was nigh - even fifty six years should wind up the scene. (History of the Church, Vol. 2, page 182).

He was told God’s will by the spirit. Unclear from the statement that the 56 year estimate was a prophesy. The term “should” suggests not a prophesy. As anyone who went to law school would know, “Should” is less certain than shall. Prophesies use the word “shall.”

Failed

David W. Patten to go on a mission
Verily, thus saith the Lord: It is wisdom in my servant David W. Patten, that he settle up all his business as soon as he possibly can, and make a disposition of his merchandise, that he may perform a mission unto me next spring, in company with others, even twelve including himself, to testify of my name and bear glad tidings unto the world. (Doctrine & Covenants 114:1)
This prophecy was made on April 17, 1838. David W. Patten died in October of 1838 and thus never went on a mission the following spring.

That’s not a prophetic prediction; it’s a set of instructions. If he attempted to heed it with all his strength, then he receives the corresponding blessing; if not, no blessing.

the United States Government to be overthrown in a few years
I prophecy in the name of the Lord God of Israel, unless the United States redress the wrongs committed upon the Saints in the state of Missouri and punish the crimes committed by her officers that in a few years the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted, and there will not be so much as a potsherd left for their wickedness in permitting the murder of men, women and children, and the wholesale plunder and extermination of thousands of her citizens to go unpunished (History of the Church, Vol. 5, page 394).

Failed

Uh, no. Heard of a little number known as the Civil War? The assassination of Lincoln, and the impeachment of his Vice President? The passages of the 14th and 15th Amendments that radically restructured the country, effectively creating a whole different system and killing the old notion of federalism? The fact that the United States used to be referred to in the plural form rather than the modern singular form? The country was overthrown. Anyone who thinks it’s the same government as before the Civil War is fooling themselves.

Congress to be broken up as a government
While discussing the petition to Congress, I prophesied, by virtue of the holy Priesthood vested in me, and in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, that, if Congress will not hear our petition and grant us protection, they shall be broken up as a government, and God shall damn them, and there shall be nothing left of them - not even a grease spot. (Millennial Star, Vol. 22, p. 455. See also History of the Church (HC), vol. 6, p. 116, though when this prediction was incorporated into the official history, Mormon Church leaders decided to leave out the “grease spot” part.)

Agreed that the grease spot part of the statement wasn’t successful prophesy. The rest was, though; see above.

Finding Treasure in Salem, Massachusetts
This prophecy is recorded in Doctrine & Covenants Section 111. The introduction to this prophecy, found at the beginning of Section 111 states:
Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Salem, Massachusetts, August 6, 1836. HC 2:465-466. At this time the leaders of the [LDS] Church were heavily in debt due to their labors in the ministry.

1. I, the Lord your God, am not displeased with your coming this journey, notwithstanding your follies.
2. I have much treasure in this city for you, for the benefit of Zion, and many people in this city, whom I will gather out in due time for the benefit of Zion, through your instrumentality.
3. Therefore, it is expedient that you should form acquaintance with men in this city, as you shall be led, and as it shall be given you.
4. And it shall come to pass in due time that I will give this city into your hands, that you shall have power over it, insomuch that they shall not discover your secret parts; and its wealth pertaining to gold and silver shall be yours.
5. Concern not yourselves about your debts, for I will give you power to pay them.

No treasure was ever discovered, nor did Salem ever fell into the hands of the Mormons.

Read it again and think.

 

[Telstar]

Yes Lori and not only St. Paul but Jesus himself talks about celibacy:

10 His disciples say unto him: If the case of a man with his wife be so, it is not good to marry.

11 He said to them: All receive not this word, but they to whom it is given.

12 For there are eunuchs, who were born so from their mother’s womb: and there are eunuchs, who were made so by men: and there are eunuchs, who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven. He that can receive, let him receive it.
haydock1859.tripod.com/id37.html

Excellent point! Thank you for that one. I had forgotten about it.

I also read the rest of 1 Corinthians 7 and found more from Paul:
"[32] But I would have you to be without solicitude. He that is without a wife, is solicitous for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please God. [33] But he that is with a wife, is solicitous for the things of the world, how he may please his wife: and he is divided. [34] And the unmarried woman and the virgin thinketh on the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit. But she that is married thinketh on the things of the world, how she may please her husband. [35] And this I speak for your profit: not to cast a snare upon you; but for that which is decent, and which may give you power to attend upon the Lord, without impediment."

Jesus clearly taught (therefore, so did the Apostles) that celibacy is a great blessing for those who choose to serve God, alone. They’re not hindered or distracted from giving their complete attention to God. I certainly can’t understand how anyone would think of that as a bad thing.

 

[evanfaust]

Evan:

Ok…tell you what. IF it is a "restoration, you should be able to easily prove that is is exactly like the early church…right? So…show me

1. Where the early church had 15 apostles like you do

I will be waiting.

Texan,

Many questions, but I will answer this one first…will answer the others as time allows me.

First of all, we have to consider the numbering in the Bible. The Godhead number is 3…“Father, Son and Holly Ghost”

The tribes of Israel is 12, Christ selected 12 apostles representing the twelve tribes of Israel.

Moses sending seventy elders in Israel to be leaders and officials among the people.

We also see the office of Seventy in the early Church of Christ.

We read in the Bible the expression quite often: " God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob", that is three people.

Then we see Christ bringing “Peter, James and John” in the mount of transfiguration, that is when three more personages more appeared…God the father, Moses and Elijah. By the way, that is when Peter, James and John received certain keys of the priesthood from Moses and Elijah.

Do you see a pattern here?

As I mentioned before, the Bible in its current format does not address everything and does not explain everything. When we search the new testament we know that at least 18 people were apostles.

So, we have enough apostles to have 12 in the Quorum of the 12 and 3 more as presiding apostles. We also know that some apostles got killed and most likely were replaced.

As common sense tells us that if there is an apostasy, it is obvious that we don’t have all the records about everything and things got corrupted, altered, and even missing. Most of it probably missing.

 

[zaffiroborant]

For example doctrines such as Pre Mortal existence, degrees of glory, potential of man becoming gods, baptism for the dead, baptism by immersion, etc, which are not explicitly mentioned in the Bible, but we see them being brought up in other ancient sources. Some of these doctrines were obscured and suppressed with the apostasies, not only the apostasy of the early primitive church, but the Israelites apostasies. That is what happens in an apostasy, books get lost, doctrines altered, corrupted and new ones are added.

Pre-mortal existence is a heresy, degrees of glory is well established in Catholic teaching, we just don’t believe we will be sent to different “places” and be permanently separated from loved ones whose reward varies from our own. Mormon “becoming gods” is nothing more than a distortion of an ancient and continuous teaching of the Church. Baptism for the dead, no reason to believe it was universally practiced by the church, could be regarded much like BY teaching that Christ’s sacrifice did not cover all sins, simply wrong. Full immersion baptism was never lost it is still and always has been done in the Catholic Church, we just don’t see that it has to be done that way, much like you no longer have to stand naked while temple workers apply water and oil to various parts of your body, now you are dressed and they apply it to your head only. You know symbolically.

See what Doctor James E. Talmage has to say about the interpretation of this verse.
It is claimed by many that the “end” referred to in the passage quoted is not necessarily the close of the final dispensation, not what is commonly spoken of as the end of the world, but the closing up of the gospel dispensation then current; and in support of this interpretation it is urged that following the utterance quoted Christ proceeded to predict the calamities then awaiting Jerusalem. That during the period covered by the earthly ministry of the apostles, the gospel was preached in all the civilized nations of the eastern hemisphere, is evident alike from scripture and from the uncanonical writings of repute relating to that period. Paul speaks of the gospel as having been carried in his day to all the world, and as having been preached to every creature under heaven.

The Great Apostasy, James E Talmage, p36

“Doctor” Talmage studied chemistry and geology, nothing related even remotely to history, or theology. Interestingly he also studied the effects of haschich by use it himself. Honestly I see what he did there as pretty darn honorable, after conflicting findings from users he and his colleague decided to try it themselves. Talmage was not comfortable with using it as he had never even used tobacco or alcohol but he put himself on the line anyway. Pretty gutsy.

 

[LivingWaters7]

Moses sending seventy elders in Israel to be leaders and officials among the people.

We also see the office of Seventy in the early Church of Christ.

No, we don’t see that at all. What we see is Christ sending out seventy disciples two by two. We see no evidence at all of an “office” of “Seventy”. It is not a priesthood office one is ordained to, and there is no evidence that this was the case in the New Testament Church, let alone from the earliest post-NT Christian writings.

So, we have enough apostles to have 12 in the Quorum of the 12 and 3 more as presiding apostles. We also know that some apostles got killed and most likely were replaced.

Which isn’t like the New Testament Church at all if that is what you’re claiming to be restoring (as well as the argument that the Church must be a carbon copy of the NT Church, which obviously isn’t the case when we look at the LDS Church itself). If we grant that Peter, James, and John were a “First Presidency”, they were 3 apostles within the Twelve, not in addition to it.

As common sense tells us that if there is an apostasy, it is obvious that we don’t have all the records about everything and things got corrupted, altered, and even missing. Most of it probably missing.

No, common sense doesn’t obviously tell us that. Common sense says that if there was an apostasy and restoration, and someone is claiming to “restore” something that was lost, logically we must be able to see what the original looked like to see if it really is a “restoration”. As I mentioned before, what we see in the ancient Church is Catholic, not LDS. LDS apologists simply cannot point to an ancient Church of Jesus Christ of Former-day Saints and say, “that is what we’re restoring”, with all of those beliefs and practices that LDS apologists say are being restored (a la Bickmore, as an example), since it doesn’t exist. Therefore, the argument that the records are lost, corrupted, altered, etc must be advanced. You can therefore claim anything is being “restored”, and since there is no evidence (since it’s all gone), it’s a way to make claims without any factual substantiation.