False Prophesies of LDS Prophets

  • Thread starter Thread starter TexanKnight
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Texan,

Many questions, but I will answer this one first…will answer the others as time allows me.

First of all, we have to consider the numbering in the Bible. The Godhead number is 3…“Father, Son and Holly Ghost”

The tribes of Israel is 12, Christ selected 12 apostles representing the twelve tribes of Israel.

Moses sending seventy elders in Israel to be leaders and officials among the people.

We also see the office of Seventy in the early Church of Christ.

We read in the Bible the expression quite often: " God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob", that is three people.

Then we see Christ bringing “Peter, James and John” in the mount of transfiguration, that is when three more personages more appeared…God the father, Moses and Elijah. By the way, that is when Peter, James and John received certain keys of the priesthood from Moses and Elijah.

Do you see a pattern here?

As I mentioned before, the Bible in its current format does not address everything and does not explain everything. When we search the new testament we know that at least 18 people were apostles.

So, we have enough apostles to have 12 in the Quorum of the 12 and 3 more as presiding apostles. We also know that some apostles got killed and most likely were replaced.

As common sense tells us that if there is an apostasy, it is obvious that we don’t have all the records about everything and things got corrupted, altered, and even missing. Most of it probably missing.
So the bible has 12 and then 18 apostles, that’s an increase of apostles what makes you think that that an increasing number of apostles isn’t the pattern? You have 15 which aligns with neither of the number you put forth as representing the number of apostles in the early church. You haven’t moved forward at all in showing an early church that looks likes your current church.🤷
 
Catholicism has always had a teaching of “degrees of glory”, meaning that in Heaven, the saved receive rewards from God based on their merits. The Father’s House has many mansions. The difference is that in Catholicism, these mansions are all in the eternal presence of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. In Mormonism, these mansions or degrees are not in the eternal presence of the entire Godhead. Somehow, the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are separated, and those in one Kingdom may not be in the eternal presence of one member of the Godhead while another Kingdom will be. Catholicism accepts the ancient teaching of different Heavenly rewards based on our merits, but also teaches that all of these rewards are in the eternal presence of God (all three members of the Trinity, who are not separated).

Catholicism has always allowed for baptism by full immersion. It was never lost. What Catholicism does do is allow for pouring to also be performed as a valid baptism, through her authority. It is always amusing to see some LDS apologists claim that Catholicism “changed” the mode of baptism, and you cannot change how ordinances are done, when they don’t even realize how certain LDS ordinances have changed in mode, the prime example being the Initiatory washing and anointing in the temple. It has gone through substantive changes in mode throughout the years, where today, it is only a “symbolic” washing and anointing, with a dab of water and oil being placed on the head/forehead of the patron, and the rest of the body symbolically washed and anointed. Previously, it involved an actual bath, then it evolved into washing and anointing specific body parts (i.e. they were touched in these places by the temple worker), and now it is all symbolic. The issue then moves away from changing modes, to one of authority, which demonstrates how this common LDS apologetic argument fails.

Deification/theosis has always been a teaching of Catholicism/Orthodoxy, and was never lost.

Temples are still found today. Catholic parishes, cathedrals, basilicas, etc are all “temples” (indeed, in the Eastern Catholic and Orthodox churches, these buildings are frequently referred to as “temples”, and are referred to as such in the liturgy). Our sacred buildings have much in common with the Biblical Temple(s), not only in structure, but what goes on therein. For example, church buildings are frequently divided into three general areas, there is a sacrificial priesthood, there is a flame that burns continuously, bread, psalms sung, purification with water prior to entry into the building proper, and on and on. The temple was never lost, and Catholic churches and liturgies have more in common with the ancient Temple and Tabernacle than LDS temples (baptism for the dead and sealings were not performed in the Jerusalem Temple, for example).
 
Catholicism has always had a teaching of “degrees of glory”, meaning that in Heaven, the saved receive rewards from God based on their merits. The Father’s House has many mansions. The difference is that in Catholicism, these mansions are all in the eternal presence of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. In Mormonism, these mansions or degrees are not in the eternal presence of the entire Godhead. Somehow, the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are separated, and those in one Kingdom may not be in the eternal presence of one member of the Godhead while another Kingdom will be. Catholicism accepts the ancient teaching of different Heavenly rewards based on our merits, but also teaches that all of these rewards are in the eternal presence of God (all three members of the Trinity, who are not separated).

Catholicism has always allowed for baptism by full immersion. It was never lost. What Catholicism does do is allow for pouring to also be performed as a valid baptism, through her authority. It is always amusing to see some LDS apologists claim that Catholicism “changed” the mode of baptism, and you cannot change how ordinances are done, when they don’t even realize how certain LDS ordinances have changed in mode, the prime example being the Initiatory washing and anointing in the temple. It has gone through substantive changes in mode throughout the years, where today, it is only a “symbolic” washing and anointing, with a dab of water and oil being placed on the head/forehead of the patron, and the rest of the body symbolically washed and anointed. Previously, it involved an actual bath, then it evolved into washing and anointing specific body parts (i.e. they were touched in these places by the temple worker), and now it is all symbolic. The issue then moves away from changing modes, to one of authority, which demonstrates how this common LDS apologetic argument fails.

Deification/theosis has always been a teaching of Catholicism/Orthodoxy, and was never lost.

Temples are still found today. Catholic parishes, cathedrals, basilicas, etc are all “temples” (indeed, in the Eastern Catholic and Orthodox churches, these buildings are frequently referred to as “temples”, and are referred to as such in the liturgy). Our sacred buildings have much in common with the Biblical Temple(s), not only in structure, but what goes on therein. For example, church buildings are frequently divided into three general areas, there is a sacrificial priesthood, there is a flame that burns continuously, bread, psalms sung, purification with water prior to entry into the building proper, and on and on. The temple was never lost, and Catholic churches and liturgies have more in common with the ancient Temple and Tabernacle than LDS temples (baptism for the dead and sealings were not performed in the Jerusalem Temple, for example).
Just what I said but as usual you explained more completely and said it with more grace, I love your posts.
 
Since TwoPekingGuys asked, here’s my reply to TexanKnight.

He was told God’s will by the spirit. Unclear from the statement that the 56 year estimate was a prophesy. The term “should” suggests not a prophesy. As anyone who went to law school would know, “Should” is less certain than shall. Prophesies use the word “shall.”

Weak. I have seen better explanations for this prophesy. All were weak, though. It was a prophesy. it failed

That’s not a prophetic prediction; it’s a set of instructions. If he attempted to heed it with all his strength, then he receives the corresponding blessing; if not, no blessing.

Another weak attempt. It was a prophesy IN the D&C. Either God had no clue who was going to live and die, or js was not a prophet. Take your pick

Uh, no. Heard of a little number known as the Civil War? The assassination of Lincoln, and the impeachment of his Vice President? The passages of the 14th and 15th Amendments that radically restructured the country, effectively creating a whole different system and killing the old notion of federalism? The fact that the United States used to be referred to in the plural form rather than the modern singular form? The country was overthrown. Anyone who thinks it’s the same government as before the Civil War is fooling themselves.

Very weak. The country did not die. It flourished. It was not destroyed like js said it would be. Look outside…see the Flag. The US is still here.

Agreed that the grease spot part of the statement wasn’t successful prophesy. The rest was, though; see above.

Nope. another failed prophesy. Thank you for trying, though. It is hard defending js, and I admire your efforts.

:.
 
Texan,

Many questions, but I will answer this one first…will answer the others as time allows me.

First of all, we have to consider the numbering in the Bible. The Godhead number is 3…“Father, Son and Holly Ghost”

The tribes of Israel is 12, Christ selected 12 apostles representing the twelve tribes of Israel.

Moses sending seventy elders in Israel to be leaders and officials among the people.

We also see the office of Seventy in the early Church of Christ.

We read in the Bible the expression quite often: " God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob", that is three people.

Then we see Christ bringing “Peter, James and John” in the mount of transfiguration, that is when three more personages more appeared…God the father, Moses and Elijah. By the way, that is when Peter, James and John received certain keys of the priesthood from Moses and Elijah.

Do you see a pattern here?

As I mentioned before, the Bible in its current format does not address everything and does not explain everything. When we search the new testament we know that at least 18 people were apostles.

So, we have enough apostles to have 12 in the Quorum of the 12 and 3 more as presiding apostles. We also know that some apostles got killed and most likely were replaced.

As common sense tells us that if there is an apostasy, it is obvious that we don’t have all the records about everything and things got corrupted, altered, and even missing. Most of it probably missing.
nice try. But you have not shown me. Jesus had 12. Mormons have 15. I want a specific showing, not some odd way of extrapolating. If you can’t, just say so. And it should not matter there are a lot of questions. IF it is a restoration, as you claim, answers to all my questions should be right there very handy for you to cut and paste…
 
Very weak. The country did not die. It flourished. It was not destroyed like js said it would be. Look outside…see the Flag. The US is still here.
Nice try. Civil war, then the president murdered, the vice president impeached, the cabinet takes over unconstitutionally, and two amendments alter the constitution to fundamentally increase federal power over the states, and you want me to believe that the government was not overthrown? Because our flag is the same? That’s some pretty superficial thinking.
 
Nice try. Civil war, then the president murdered, the vice president impeached, the cabinet takes over unconstitutionally, and two amendments alter the constitution to fundamentally increase federal power over the states, and you want me to believe that the government was not overthrown? Because our flag is the same? That’s some pretty superficial thinking.
lol…no. The Constitution remained…it worked…when the President was killed, succession happened as provided in the Constitution. The Government did not change, the people did. The country and government survived. He was wrong yet again.
 
lol…no. The Constitution remained…it worked…when the President was killed, succession happened as provided in the Constitution.
Uh, no, it didn’t. Lincoln’s cabinet (who appear from the Lincoln Papers to have had some part in his assassination) declared that the former VP Andrew Johnson didn’t have the right to make changes in the Cabinet, and he was impeached.

The government was overthrown.
 
Uh, no, it didn’t. Lincoln’s cabinet (who appear from the Lincoln Papers to have had some part in his assassination) declared that the former VP Andrew Johnson didn’t have the right to make changes in the Cabinet, and he was impeached.

The government was overthrown.
lol…keep trying. We both know it is not true. The VP became President. Reconstruction began, though fraught with issues.

The USA went on. The Constitution survived. The flag still proudly waved.

I get a huge chuckle at the contortions Mormons go through to try to validate their convicted con man who became “prophet”
 
lol. I forget. You are a follower of the treasure seeker. You believe that IF there a few problems, then the whole thing fell and a new “restoration” is needed.

That makes sense.

Sadly, it does not work that way. There have been and will be problems. The 1860s were a difficult time with high emotions. The bottom line, we still have the same country, the same government the same Constitution. Your attempts to fit the square peg of js prophesies into the round hole of reality are humorous and entertaining, but do not work.

I do, however, appreciate the laugh on a drizzly morning.
 
Catholicism has always had a teaching of “degrees of glory”, meaning that in Heaven, the saved receive rewards from God based on their merits. The Father’s House has many mansions. The difference is that in Catholicism, these mansions are all in the eternal presence of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. In Mormonism, these mansions or degrees are not in the eternal presence of the entire Godhead. Somehow, the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are separated, and those in one Kingdom may not be in the eternal presence of one member of the Godhead while another Kingdom will be. Catholicism accepts the ancient teaching of different Heavenly rewards based on our merits, but also teaches that all of these rewards are in the eternal presence of God (all three members of the Trinity, who are not separated).

Catholicism has always allowed for baptism by full immersion. It was never lost. What Catholicism does do is allow for pouring to also be performed as a valid baptism, through her authority. It is always amusing to see some LDS apologists claim that Catholicism “changed” the mode of baptism, and you cannot change how ordinances are done, when they don’t even realize how certain LDS ordinances have changed in mode, the prime example being the Initiatory washing and anointing in the temple. It has gone through substantive changes in mode throughout the years, where today, it is only a “symbolic” washing and anointing, with a dab of water and oil being placed on the head/forehead of the patron, and the rest of the body symbolically washed and anointed. Previously, it involved an actual bath, then it evolved into washing and anointing specific body parts (i.e. they were touched in these places by the temple worker), and now it is all symbolic. The issue then moves away from changing modes, to one of authority, which demonstrates how this common LDS apologetic argument fails.

Deification/theosis has always been a teaching of Catholicism/Orthodoxy, and was never lost.

Temples are still found today. Catholic parishes, cathedrals, basilicas, etc are all “temples” (indeed, in the Eastern Catholic and Orthodox churches, these buildings are frequently referred to as “temples”, and are referred to as such in the liturgy). Our sacred buildings have much in common with the Biblical Temple(s), not only in structure, but what goes on therein. For example, church buildings are frequently divided into three general areas, there is a sacrificial priesthood, there is a flame that burns continuously, bread, psalms sung, purification with water prior to entry into the building proper, and on and on. The temple was never lost, and Catholic churches and liturgies have more in common with the ancient Temple and Tabernacle than LDS temples (baptism for the dead and sealings were not performed in the Jerusalem Temple, for example).
👍

Regarding deification, I think the difference between orthodox Christianity and LDS regarding deification arises from our difference vis-a-vis the nature of God. If one understands Him to be one of a long line of gods, but who just happens to be the particular god that one worships (who fathered us with a divine mother before our being born to earthly parents), then deification will be to join in one’s turn at godhood as the god one worships moves on to greater exaltation. For Catholics, though - and all orthodox Christians - God is the One Infinite, Uncreated, Immutable Being Who out of His Love creates, and highest of that Creation is Man Who, by God’s grace, may be elevated to the status of sons and daughters of God.

Humans mayshare in His perfection by the grace won for us in Christ - thus deification. What we can never be is what God is in Himself. By His grace He allows us to participate in the perfection of His Divinity, but it is never ours on our own since we are creatures, creatures who change and require matter for our existence; God, otoh, does not have this requirement for His own Existence, since He is Existence Itself and never could have this requirement by virtue of His Being Perfect, Simple, and Omnipresent.
 
lol. I forget. You are a follower of the treasure seeker. You believe that IF there a few problems, then the whole thing fell and a new “restoration” is needed.
.
🤷 You’re the one who brought up the post civil-war Reconstruction, Tex. Please explain to me the difference between Restoration and Reconstruction?

I’m shocked that a wounded veteran would use the term “a few problems” to dismiss the US civil war (600,000+ dead) and the murder of Lincoln.

The Civil War killed more Americans than have died in every war since the Constitution was written in 1789. “a few problems” indeed. I’m in South Carolina and I see people still flying the Dixie Swaztika.
 
Regarding deification, I think the difference between orthodox Christianity and LDS regarding deification arises from our difference vis-a-vis the nature of God. If one understands Him to be one of a long line of gods, but who just happens to be the particular god that one worships (who fathered us with a divine mother before our being born to earthly parents), then deification will be to join in one’s turn at godhood as the god one worships moves on to greater exaltation.
I never had a family member or church leader that spoke of God or of deification that way.

Mormons point to John chapter 17, about being one with God. Revelations chapter 2 and 3, the deification promises to he that overcometh. It’s not about “getting your turn godhood.” It’s about surrendering your will to God and becoming the instrument of his glory.
 
🤷 You’re the one who brought up the post civil-war Reconstruction, Tex. Please explain to me the difference between Restoration and Reconstruction?

I’m shocked that a wounded veteran would use the term “a few problems” to dismiss the US civil war (600,000+ dead) and the murder of Lincoln.

The Civil War killed more Americans than have died in every war since the Constitution was written in 1789. “a few problems” indeed. I’m in South Carolina and I see people still flying the Dixie Swaztika.
Actually, I did not bring it up. I simply posted the failed prophesies. Y’all have tried a series of gymnastics to make the failed prophesies somehow work, but they do not.
 
"Sabacthani:
You’re the one who brought up the post civil-war Reconstruction, Tex. Please explain to me the difference between Restoration and Reconstruction?
Actually, I did not bring it up.
:rolleyes: Yes, Tex, you did bring up Reconstruction.
The VP became President. Reconstruction began, though fraught with issues.
Again, what is the difference between a Restoration and a Reconstruction?

What do you mean when you say post civil war America had only suffered a few problems and only needed a Reconstruction and not a Restoration? 😃
 
:rolleyes: Yes, Tex, you did bring up Reconstruction.

Again, what is the difference between a Restoration and a Reconstruction?

What do you mean when you say post civil war America had only suffered a few problems and only needed a Reconstruction and not a Restoration? 😃
lol…Sigh. Let me speak more slowly.

No, I did not bring it up. I was responding to a claim about the Civil War and the aftermath. I did not bring that up. I only responded to it.

But I understand the derailing.
 
lol…Sigh. Let me speak more slowly.

No, I did not bring it up. I was responding to a claim about the Civil War and the aftermath. I did not bring that up. I only responded to it.
No one mentioned the Reconstruction until you did. So you brought it up. you are also the one who made the analogy between the apostasy and the collapse of the US government during the Civil War/Assassination/Impeachment/Reconstruction. So please answer the question. what is the difference between a Restoration and a Reconstruction?

How is the US needing a Reconstruction different than the church needing a restoration?
 
No one mentioned the Reconstruction until you did. So you brought it up. you are also the one who made the analogy between the apostasy and the collapse of the US government during the Civil War/Assassination/Impeachment/Reconstruction. So please answer the question. what is the difference between a Restoration and a Reconstruction?

How is the US needing a Reconstruction different than the church needing a restoration?
lol…twistt how you need it.

I understand your need to do so. I really do. I was just like you when In was LDS> I would try all I could to deflect
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top