False Prophets the most used comeback!

[Judas_Thaddeus]

Maybe there should be a term for this, i.e., “Cafeteria Bible Believers”.

Yes! And the Baha’i are not alone.

There are also the Muslims, Mormons, United Pentecostalists, Jehovah’s Witnesses, etc.

 

[Servant19]

Yes! And the Baha’i are not alone.

There are also the Muslims, Mormons, United Pentecostalists, Jehovah’s Witnesses, etc.

Thankyou dear friends

The Baha’is are accustomed to being labelled many things by mainly Islamic extremists in Iran. It seems we are being labelled things by Catholics too

Forgive me, but I believe arthra gave FIVE passages which he quoted from the Bible.

Isn’t the entire foundation of Catholicism (to separate itself from other denominations) based on less verses than that from the Bible?

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[Judas_Thaddeus]

Thankyou dear friends

The Baha’is are accustomed to being labelled many things by mainly Islamic extremists in Iran. It seems we are being labelled things by Catholics too

Now don’t display that as though the Baha’i are alone
there. Christians don’t have it too cool there either. :sad_yes:

Forgive me, but I believe arthra gave FIVE passages which he quoted from the Bible.

Isn’t the entire foundation of Catholicism (to separate itself from other denominations) based on less verses than that from the Bible?

Well you have to remember that the Roman Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ.
You say “arthra gave FIVE passages,” this following video gives over twice that:
youtube.com/watch?v=MZ5tEzXxSvs
Another helpful thing to remember, in light of who founded the Catholic Church, WE WERE HERE FIRST!

The Denominations separated themselves from us, who again were here first.

 

[Servant19]

Now don’t display that as though the Baha’i are alone
there. Christians don’t have it too cool there either. :sad_yes:

Yes, it is sad indeed (and all our hearts and souls pray for that to stop) but I was hoping Catholics would “rise above” labelling

Well you have to remember that the Roman Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ.

Where? Show me the references without being a “Cafeteria Bible Believer”

You say “arthra gave FIVE passages,” this following video gives over twice that:
youtube.com/watch?v=MZ5tEzXxSvs
Another helpful thing to remember, in light of who founded the Catholic Church, WE WERE HERE FIRST!

Jesus never talked about Rome
Matthew 16:18 is the ONLY passage that refers to anything relating to Rome.

I believe that is just one verse…arthra gave you FIVE dear brother

 

[josie_L]

Thankyou dear friends

The Baha’is are accustomed to being labelled many things by mainly Islamic extremists in Iran. It seems we are being labelled things by Catholics too

80% of the world’s persecuted people are Christians, and that’s not a fact I made up! Moreover, please don’t compare what I said about “Cafeteria Bible believers” (for any and all who do it) to what Islamic extremists have said about the baha’i faith, I find that to be a gross exaggeration on your part, and highly offensive. My comment was nothing more than a reflection of those who selectively believe in parts of OUR Bible, without taking into consideration its entirety.

p.s. And just letting you know Catholics who disagree with Church teaching are called “Cafeteria Catholics”.

 

[Servant19]

Don’t know about that Ignatian question, but that part on the eunuchs, “eunuch” didn’t
back then only apply to men who “lost something”rolleyes. Some people are infertile, im-
potent, others are “made eunuch” by the cruelty of men, that more familiar usage of
eunuch, THEN there are people who simply choose the celibate life in devotion to God.

So no, Jesus isn’t telling us men to self-mutilate ourselves below. CONTEXT!

Read Matthew 19 AGAIN! The Apostles made that same
proposition that you just made, but Jesus said that such
is not everyone.

No, you read into the text. The point Jesus and Paul were making was that some are
just not born to be married, others are meant to be married, others still, EVEN if they
could marry and have children, can choose not to marry for the glory of God.

You’re right, there are more important reasons why he should be labeled a False Prophet. Interesting though that Baha’u’llah
had three wives when he should have had just one, and that he narrowed down the number of wives permitted at a time to on-
ly two, again despite having three himself. Marriage/Monogamy/Polygamy/Celibacy/etc. though are side issues though, there
are more relevant reasons to conclude that the Bab and Baha’u’llah are false prophets.

I’m pretty confident there is no disparity between Baha’i and Christian teaching on this matter…lets move on

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[Judas_Thaddeus]

Yes, it is sad indeed (and all our hearts and souls pray for that to stop) but I was hoping Catholics would “rise above” labelling

Oh we have lots of labels to label people, such as heretic, antichrist, FALSE PROPHET, etc.

Where? Show me the references without being a “Cafeteria Bible Believer”

I believe this new “Cafeteria Bible Believer” phrase refers to people who use one part
of the Bible to defend one aspect of their particular religion while at the same time ig-
noring all parts that contradict the religion.
Also, that isn’t even a proper question anyway, as the Church derives herself from the
Bible, while the Baha’i are more than ready to admit that the Bible is insufficient, inac-
curate, wrong, BAD! (Isaac vs Ishmael).
Of course we can’t use the WHOLE Bible to defend one aspect of the Catholicism,
but Catholicism as a whole must be supported by the Bible. True though, there are
some “Traditions” not seen so explicitly through Scripture, but have been handed
down by the Apostles unwritten (1Cor. 11:2, 2Thess. 2:15, 2Thess. 3:6, 2Tim. 2:2).

Jesus never talked about Rome
Matthew 16:18 is the ONLY passage that refers to anything relating to Rome.

I believe that is just one verse…arthra gave you FIVE dear brother

Did you look at the video?
You should know better than to assume Matthew 16:18 is the only one.
Play the video again.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

I fully expect you to be a virgin too then Josie.

In all seriousness, what are the values of celibacy and avoiding marriage?

Is celibacy to be preferred to raising a child within a marriage? A child that may become a saint, a Peter, a John?

Or is giving birth to one who is doomed to sin an evil in Catholicism and Christianity?

When one is married one cares more for the concerns of the world than they otherwise would have, they become busy, wanting to please their children and their spouse. This doesn’t mean they don’t worship God or live unholy lives, it only means they cannot live a life totally dedicated to God detached from the concerns of the world, focusing only on worshipping God.

 

[Servant19]

When one is married one cares more for the concerns of the world than they otherwise would have, they become busy, wanting to please their children and their spouse. This doesn’t mean they don’t worship God or live unholy lives, it only means they cannot live a life totally dedicated to God detached from the concerns of the world, focusing only on worshipping God.

Unless you live according to the standards of Baha’i marriage, and you ALL dedicate yourselves “as a collective unit” (this is called a family) to God, detached from the concerns of the world and serving mankind and feeding the manna of heaven to your souls.

Nothing is more pleasing to God than to have a family of Mother Teresa’s UNITED in action towards complete selfless service towards God.

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[IgnatianPhilo]

Unless you live according to the standards of Baha’i marriage, and you ALL dedicate yourselves “as a collective unit” (this is called a family) to God, detached from the concerns of the world and serving mankind and feeding the manna of heaven to your souls.

Nothing is more pleasing to God than to have a family of Mother Teresa’s UNITED in action towards complete selfless service towards God.

.

Except you will put more attention towards your family than what you would have otherwise put towards God. But we have strayed very far from my original premise, that the bahai God could if he so desired make homosexuality valid. You appealed to nature as the standard that does not change, yet bahais believe in not only evolution of biology but of society. Things change from generation to generation as this is seen in the Chrisitian belief that celibacy is a higher calling than marriage, as we see in the words and life of Christ and in the teaching of the apostles Paul. Did Christ fail to live because he was not married? Did Paul err in saying we ought to remain unmarried, yet marriage is an option as a concession?

You have already given the bahai understanding, but that is your own time and not the time of the New testament. You have to remember God ordained this rule for the world at the time of the New testament, later revoking it with islam and bahai (allowing man to indulge in more than one woman, then forbidding that for some reason).

You have given little convincing argumentation that says the bahai God would oppose Homosexuality in the future.

 

[Servant19]

Except you will put more attention towards your family than what you would have otherwise put towards God. But we have strayed very far from my original premise, that the bahai God could if he so desired make homosexuality valid. You appealed to nature as the standard that does not change, yet bahais believe in not only evolution of biology but of society. Things change from generation to generation as this is seen in the Chrisitian belief that celibacy is a higher calling than marriage, as we see in the words and life of Christ and in the teaching of the apostles Paul. Did Christ fail to live because he was not married? Did Paul err in saying we ought to remain unmarried, yet marriage is an option as a concession?

You have already given the bahai understanding, but that is your own time and not the time of the New testament. You have to remember God ordained this rule for the world at the time of the New testament, later revoking it with islam and bahai (allowing man to indulge in more than one woman, then forbidding that for some reason).

You have given little convincing argumentation that says the bahai God would oppose Homosexuality in the future.

Ignatian you have done little convincing argumentation to tell me that you are not God
(all I know is that God did not “okay” homosexual relationships in “this” Age, you seem to know more )

I think we can make more mature dialogue no?

Extreme cases to make a point is senseless…

Do you or do you not see the “collective undertaking” of a family of 5 (for example) all undertaking a lifetime of service to God a more praiseworthy outcome than the man to have remained a monastic?

 

[Servant19]

80% of the world’s persecuted people are Christians, and that’s not a fact I made up! Moreover, please don’t compare what I said about “Cafeteria Bible believers” (for any and all who do it) to what Islamic extremists have said about the baha’i faith, I find that to be a gross exaggeration on your part, and highly offensive. My comment was nothing more than a reflection of those who selectively believe in parts of OUR Bible, without taking into consideration its entirety.

p.s. And just letting you know Catholics who disagree with Church teaching are called “Cafeteria Catholics”.

My apologies if this made you mad, Josie. It was not my intention, but as Baha’is we are taught to “beware lest ye offend any heart”. We strive for standards that can avoid personal remarks which may hurt the tenderness of some hearts. I assure you I am not equating your words to “persecutions” which Baha’is and Christians are having to endure around the world…no…I am requesting to avoid the seeds of such persecutions which seeks to label and outcast minorities, “so the majority can enjoy the belittling of other”

“Cafeteria Catholics” are also human beings and they have hearts too, maybe their voices should be heard and they be nurtured and accompanied towards the One Fold which Catholicism strives to create

Humbly submitted and with my apologies

.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

My apologies if this made you mad, Josie. It was not my intention, but as Baha’is we are taught to “beware lest ye offend any heart”. We strive for standards that can avoid personal remarks which may hurt the tenderness of some hearts. I assure you I am not equating your words to “persecutions” which Baha’is and Christians are having to endure around the world…no…I am requesting to avoid the seeds of such persecutions which seeks to label and outcast minorities, “so the majority can enjoy the belittling of other”

“Cafeteria Catholics” are also human beings and they have hearts too, maybe their voices should be heard and they be nurtured and accompanied towards the One Fold which Catholicism strives to create

Humbly submitted and with my apologies

.

“beware lest ye offend any heart”, “avoid personal remarks which may hurt the
tenderness of some hearts”, nothing here in regards to the Truth. If I care, I will
offend, so I will bring it up again: Baha’i are Cafeteria Bible Believers, meaning
that they will (intentionally or not) use the Bible, grab a few passages that can
be used to support their faith, TOTALLY then disregarding the rest of the Bible
when it conflicts with their teachings (Isaac vs Ishmael).

But let’s get back to “False Prophets” now, shall we:Who is a liar, but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ?
This is Antichrist, who denies the Father, and the Son.
– (1 John 2:22)

 

[Servant19]

“beware lest ye offend any heart”, “avoid personal remarks which may hurt the
tenderness of some hearts”, nothing here in regards to the Truth. If I care, I will
offend, so I will bring it up again: Baha’i are Cafeteria Bible Believers, meaning
that they will (intentionally or not) use the Bible, grab a few passages that can
be used to support their faith, TOTALLY then disregarding the rest of the Bible
when it conflicts with their teachings (Isaac vs Ishmael).

But let’s get back to “False Prophets” now, shall we:Who is a liar, but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ?
This is Antichrist, who denies the Father, and the Son.
– (1 John 2:22)

If you care, why not NURTURE and EDUCATE??

You care for your children, so when they are about to read for the first time and they can’t read a word, then you call them stupid, right?

Is that Christian values??

I’m getting plenty of shocks in this thread!

.

 

[Servant19]

But let’s get back to “False Prophets” now, shall we:Who is a liar, but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ?
This is Antichrist, who denies the Father, and the Son.
– (1 John 2:22)

Yes, where does Baha’u’llah say that Jesus is not the Christ?

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[Servant19]

The Judgement day at the end of time is confessing everything i have done, it is not working to build the tower of babel on earth. Tell me why did God hate them for doing what you are trying to achieve? They united the world, there was one language and peace somewhat. Was it because they disbelieved? That believing in God and not ignoring him is the most important thing to God instead of this one world government you envision?

Why would you think that the Baha’i vision is to not believe in God?

Ignatian, reviewing this thread and reading your posts makes me wonder if after 6000 posts in the past, you still have no idea what the Baha’i Faith is…(especially if you are drawing comparisons with Babel)

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[Judas_Thaddeus]

If you care, why not NURTURE and EDUCATE??

I’m nurturing and educating right now!

You care for your children, so when they are about to read for the first time and they can’t read a word, then you call them stupid, right?

Oy gevalt, you just jumped to an entirely different spectrum here!
Not only is this a different scenario, I never once said the words
stupid, idiot, dumb, etc, so your point is a red-herring.

I’m getting plenty of shocks in this thread!

We Christians take the concept of False Prophets seriously, so why the surprise?
Baha’i here have used Scripture here to support
their False Prophet, in such a way as warned
against by Saint Peter:
And account the longsuffering of our Lord, salvation; as also our most dear brother Paul, accord-
ing to the wisdom given him, hath written to you: As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of
these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and
unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.
– (2 Peter 3:15-16)

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

Yes, where does Baha’u’llah say that Jesus is not the Christ?

Well that depends, what IS “Christ”/“Messiah”?
What makes Jesus special out of all the prophets?
And what of "The Father and The Son? If we read the
Bible, we ought to be coming to the conclusion that the
Father and the Son are both, despite being distinct in their
persons, One In Being, The One God, Creator of All Things.

What the Baha’i Faith does is strip of the Deity of Jesus Christ AND ON TOP OF THAT,
degrade the Father by making him Baha’u’llah, both men being creations of another god.

 

[Servant19]

I’m nurturing and educating right now!

Nurturing and educating do not belong in the same place as “offending”

“If I care I will offend”…

Oy gevalt, you just jumped to an entirely different spectrum here!
Not only is this a different scenario, I never once said the words
stupid, idiot, dumb, etc, so your point is a red-herring.

I will quote you again brother.
“If I care, I will offend”

I pray that I will never offend your heart. I LOVE our dialogues, and I love you, so why offend me for that?

We Christians take the concept of False Prophets seriously, so why the surprise?
Baha’i here have used Scripture here to support
their False Prophet, in such a way as warned
against by Saint Peter:
And account the longsuffering of our Lord, salvation; as also our most dear brother Paul, accord-
ing to the wisdom given him, hath written to you: As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of
these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and
unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.
– (2 Peter 3:15-16)

Well, WE Bahai’s don’t care about the word “WE”, we consider ourselves as being “US”, “ALL OF US”…“TOGETHER”, there is no “we” and “them” in the sight of God.

What do you understand from the passage you quoted here, Judas?

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[Servant19]

Well that depends, what IS “Christ”/“Messiah”?

Yes, I agree. What are the references that you can think of that define the Messiah that is denied by Baha’u’llah?

What makes Jesus special out of all the prophets?
And what of "The Father and The Son? If we read the
Bible, we ought to be coming to the conclusion that the
Father and the Son are both, despite being distinct in their
persons, One In Being, The One God, Creator of All Things.

Yes, Baha’u’llah is one in being with Jesus…you should be asking yourself why I, an educated dental surgeon, living in a loving household, with loving parents from childhood, and with now a loving wife and 2 children, would be CONVINCED of that? (and ready to give up my life for it too, anytime, anywhere)

What the Baha’i Faith does is strip of the Deity of Jesus Christ AND ON TOP OF THAT,
degrade the Father by making him Baha’u’llah, both men being creations of another god.

Why would that scenario be impossible, Judas?

Baha’u’llah clearly states that God reveals Himself in degrees according to the capacity of humankind to understand His Will and His nature.

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