False Prophets the most used comeback!

[Judas_Thaddeus]

Nurturing and educating do not belong in the same place as “offending”
“If I care I will offend”…
I will quote you again brother.
“If I care, I will offend”
I pray that I will never offend your heart. I LOVE our dialogues, and I love you, so why offend me for that?

If the Truth hurts, it hurts.
This thread is about False Prophets, so I will point out False Prophets.
What kind of love would I have if I didn’t offer any criticisms against the
Baha’i Faith? If you are believing in the Antichrist Doctrine, I just have
to let you know about it, and if I offend, not my goal, but oh well.

Well, WE Bahai’s don’t care about the word “WE”, we consider ourselves as being “US”, “ALL OF US”…“TOGETHER”, there is no “we” and “them” in the sight of God.

What do you understand from the passage you quoted here, Judas?.

Not sure what you’re getting at with the WE and the US, but as to the passage I brought
up, the Bible is being misunderstood and misused by the Baha’i, showing how Baha’u’llah
fits to them in “these passages”, not understanding them, while at the same time ignoring
the passages that refute the Baha’i Faith.

I believe in our previous dialogues, when I brought up John 1, you said something to the
effect that “Well that wasn’t written by Jesus,” and when I brought to your attention the
passages where Jesus’ Divinity is most apparent, you reinterpreted them to say that it
was the God, the Creator, speaking through Jesus, when that isn’t what the text says.

Peter also warns us else where in his writings against private interpretations.

 

[SteveVH]

Nurturing and educating do not belong in the same place as “offending”

“If I care I will offend”…

When one confronts another with a drinking problem in an effort to save their life I guarantee you that the one with the problem will feel offended. Is it better to let them die or to offend them with the hope that they will live?

Edit: I would add that Jesus certainly had no problem offending the Pharisees and the money changers in the Temple. So when one asks “what would Jesus do?” overturning tables is certainly an option.

 

[Servant19]

When one confronts another with a drinking problem in an effort to save their life I guarantee you that the one with the problem will feel offended. Is it better to let them die or to offend them with the hope that they will live?

Thats a pretty extreme example Steve.

Arthra is not drunk, nor is he unable to make reasoned argument and present a perspective that has validity.

In matters of the spirit, where there is respectful and well reasoned opinions being shared, there is no need to offend.

Period…

Baha’is feel the same about how Christians have misinterpreted their own Bible, but we do not resort to making snide remarks or labelling people the equivalent of “lazy” or “deviant”
(I cannot see any other perspective than this, so if you or Judas are wanting to debate this more, it will be futile so lets move on )

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[Judas_Thaddeus]

Yes, I agree. What are the references that you can think of that define the Messiah that is denied by Baha’u’llah?

NO . . . I asked you: “What is Christ/Messiah?”

Yes, Baha’u’llah is one in being with Jesus…you should be asking yourself why I, an educated dental surgeon, living in a loving household, with loving parents from childhood, and with now a loving wife and 2 children, would be CONVINCED of that? (and ready to give up my life for it too, anytime, anywhere)

I don’t think it is Baha’i doctrine, please show me if I’m wrong, that Baha’u’llah and Jesus
are One Being, but regardless the Baha’i Faith denies that they are God the Creator and
that is what John’s letter demands of us.

Why would that scenario be impossible, Judas?

Baha’u’llah clearly states that God reveals Himself in degrees according to the capacity of humankind to understand His Will and His nature.

The scenario is impossible because the Bible is very clear that the Father, the Son, & the
Holy Spirit are the One God, that NO ONE can ever see the Father, that being why Jesus
came himself to be the Revelation of the Father.
I might agree that “God reveals Himself in degrees according to the capacity
of humankind to understand His Will and His nature,” but not in such a way
that he would contradict himself (Isaac vs Ishmael).

 

[Servant19]

Edit: I would add that Jesus certainly had no problem offending the Pharisees and the money changers in the Temple. So when one asks “what would Jesus do?” overturning tables is certainly an option.

The intentions of the Pharisees is significantly different to the intentions of the Baha’is

We most certainly are not a “brood of vipers”

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[Servant19]

I believe in our previous dialogues, when I brought up John 1, you said something to the
effect that “Well that wasn’t written by Jesus,” and when I brought to your attention the
passages where Jesus’ Divinity is most apparent, you reinterpreted them to say that it
was the God, the Creator, speaking through Jesus, when that isn’t what the text says.

Peter also warns us else where in his writings against private interpretations.

Yes, Jesus says emphatically that what He speaks are not His Words, but the Words of the Father.

The scenario is impossible because the Bible is very clear that the Father, the Son, & the
Holy Spirit are the One God, that NO ONE can ever see the Father, that being why Jesus
came himself to be the Revelation of the Father.
I might agree that “God reveals Himself in degrees according to the capacity
of humankind to understand His Will and His nature,” but not in such a way
that he would contradict himself (Isaac vs Ishmael).

Please show me again where it says that no one can ever see the Father?

Anyway, the Father has manifested Himself and has advised that the period of Jesus’ Dispensation demanded a personal relationship with God, and it is for this reason that the Son was sent.

The Father has now come and advised us that even He is not FULLY GOD…the Christian dispensation did not require a non-personal God to be revealed, the capacity to understand these things were not there at that time

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[Servant19]

NO . . . I asked you: “What is Christ/Messiah?”

I don’t think it is Baha’i doctrine, please show me if I’m wrong, that Baha’u’llah and Jesus
are One Being, but regardless the Baha’i Faith denies that they are God the Creator and
that is what John’s letter demands of us.

I suggest you read the Etymology of the term/title Christ.

This may assist you:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ
etymonline.com/index.php?term=messiah

Christ does NOT mean God the Creator.

Baha’u’llah NEVER has denied Jesus as Christ!

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[Judas_Thaddeus]

Yes, Jesus says emphatically that what He speaks are not His Words, but the Words of the Father.

Jesus is speaking for the Father a lot, but it is not the Father speaking through him,
there is a difference. Also, not ALL of his words are “not his words”, just have to read carefully.

Please show me again where it says that no one can ever see the Father?

Again: 1 Timothy 6 (Best read whole chapter, it isn’t so long).

The Father has now come and advised us that even He is not FULLY GOD…the Christian dispensation did not require a non-personal God to be revealed, the capacity to understand these things were not there at that time.

But that contradicts the Bible, oy!

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

I suggest you read the Etymology of the term/title Christ.
This may assist you:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ
etymonline.com/index.php?term=messiah
Christ does NOT mean God the Creator.
Baha’u’llah NEVER has denied Jesus as Christ!

Nah-ah, don’t give me the general, HOW IS JESUS the MESSIAH IN THE BAHA’I FAITH?

Paul’s letters, the Gospel of John, Revelation, etc are very clear that Jesus is the Creator.

Now again: What is “Christ”/“Messiah” in the Baha’i Faith?

 

[SteveVH]

Thats a pretty extreme example Steve.

Arthra is not drunk, nor is he unable to make reasoned argument and present a perspective that has validity.

In matters of the spirit, where there is respectful and well reasoned opinions being shared, there is no need to offend.

Period…

Baha’is feel the same about how Christians have misinterpreted their own Bible, but we do not resort to making snide remarks or labelling people the equivalent of “lazy” or “deviant”
(I cannot see any other perspective than this, so if you or Judas are wanting to debate this more, it will be futile so lets move on ).

Servant, I assumed that you, as an educated man, would be able to understand the analogy. Just as one who confronts an addict out of no motivation other than love will still offend that person who does not want to change their life, one who confronts another with the Truth, out of no other motivation than love, may still offend the person who does not wish to hear that truth.

Making snide remarks or labeling people with terms such as “lazy” or “deviant” have no place in dialogue. Stating the truth always has a place in dialogue, even if the truth offends those who do not wish to hear it.

The intentions of the Pharisees is significantly different to the intentions of the Baha’is

We most certainly are not a “brood of vipers”

How do you now what the intentions of the Pharisees were? Lets take Paul, for instance, who was one of the chief Pharisees and who was on a mission to destroy Christianity. Did he wish to destroy Christianity because he was evil, or because he did not have the truth? In fact, Paul was doing his best to protect the Jewish faith by not allowing any deviating from the law. He believed, as did the other Pharisees that the Messiah would not come until the law was kept perfectly. The Christian view was that we were no longer subject to the law, which was a direct violation of the Pharisaical view. Christianity was based upon a relationship with God rather than following the letter of the law. In reality, they were offended by the truth that Christ brought to them.

Some examples of Jesus’ truth which offended the Jews:

“You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.…” (Matthew 5:38-39)

"He said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way. And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”… (Matthew 19:8-9)

I don’t think anyone believes that the Baha’i are a “brood of vipers”. Many of us, however, believe that you have been seriously misled by a false prophet and do not have the truth of Jesus Christ, the one and only Truth that can set you free. Out of love and concern for your eternal destiny we wish to give you this truth. If that truth offends you, just as it offended the Jews, then so be it. That is not, however, our intention nor our motivation in presenting the truth.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Ignatian you have done little convincing argumentation to tell me that you are not God
(all I know is that God did not “okay” homosexual relationships in “this” Age, you seem to know more )

I think we can make more mature dialogue no?

Extreme cases to make a point is senseless…

Do you or do you not see the “collective undertaking” of a family of 5 (for example) all undertaking a lifetime of service to God a more praiseworthy outcome than the man to have remained a monastic?

Well the mere fact that I have sinned shows I am not God and if God were typing to you in a forum on the internet, I dare suppose you would be converted by now. Now I do not think my example is pointless, nor extreme. You say we Christians are stuck in the past and need to live in the future, accept the current manifestation. You say we refuse new things and stubbornly cling to older beliefs just like the Jews who rejected Christ did. Are you starting to see where I am heading? What i have tried to get you to understand? The future manifestation is going to be radically different from what you expect (i am here only for the sake of argument pretending bahai manifesations instead of fakes wanting money will come). Why if the jews were surprised by Christ, the bahais shouldn’t be surprised by the new guy on the town? Surely thats the cycle that will exist for all eternity? Prophet comes, prophet goes, people reject, people accept and so on and so on ad nauseum.

Now in order to answer your question, do you first concede these two points. That to pray constantly and never neglect God is higher than to at times think of worldly things or just not have God in mind? Secondly do you concede that a family life will neccessarily involve, due to the nature of the work of child bearing a distraction? A good distraction, something God does not punish or find fault in, but a distraction none the less? I suggest our sorry human state in which we forget things related to God all the time is not the ideal or highest form of existence. If we are going to be worshipping God in heaven forever without ceasing, without lacking in joy, without tears, why should it not be the case on earth?

 

[meltzerboy]

The intentions of the Pharisees is significantly different to the intentions of the Baha’is

We most certainly are not a “brood of vipers”

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The Pharisees have gotten a bad rap. Jesus was critical of only some of the Pharisees, certainly not the whole movement. This was the movement of Judaism that believed in an afterlife and a Messiah as well as an Oral Law in addition to the Torah (Written Law). They consisted of the common people as opposed to the priestly Sadducees and were the spiritual ancestors of modern Judaism.

 

[Servant19]

Nah-ah, don’t give me the general, HOW IS JESUS the MESSIAH IN THE BAHA’I FAITH?

"Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.

We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.

Leprosy may be interpreted as any veil that interveneth between man and the recognition of the Lord, his God. Whoso alloweth himself to be shut out from Him is indeed a leper, who shall not be remembered in the Kingdom of God, the Mighty, the All-Praised. We bear witness that through the power of the Word of God every leper was cleansed, every sickness was healed, every human infirmity was banished. He it is Who purified the world. Blessed is the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him."

     - Baha'u'llah

(reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-36.html)

I have underlined the segments which for me, personally, have particular signification.

This passage is how revered Jesus is to Baha’is. He is the Lord that has sanctified all of creation from sin. There is nothing further to add

If this is denying that “Jesus is the Christ” as has been warned about in the Bible, then I suggest we have no further dialogue.


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[Servant19]

Jesus is speaking for the Father a lot, but it is not the Father speaking through him,
there is a difference. Also, not ALL of his words are “not his words”, just have to read carefully.

Please give sources for this brother

Again: 1 Timothy 6 (Best read whole chapter, it isn’t so long).

Again: I read it in 4 different translations and the word Father was not mentioned once in the entire chapter

But that contradicts the Bible, oy!

I don’t believe it does. Its difficult when an entire paradigm is created that revolves around a specific set of concepts. That paradigm has been shifted by Baha’u’llah. Remember the bit about the nature of God is revealed gradually as we develop in our spiritual capacity to understand? Well this is it.

The reality is that Baha’u’llah revealed a tremendous amount, the recordings of which was thrown into the River Tigris because as He stated “mankind was not ready for it yet”

Jesus said the same thing “ye cannot bear it now”…

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[Judas_Thaddeus]

I have underlined the segments which for me, personally, have particular signification.

This passage is how revered Jesus is to Baha’is. He is the Lord that has sanctified all of creation from sin. There is nothing further to add

If this is denying that “Jesus is the Christ” as has been warned about in the Bible, then I suggest we have no further dialogue.

Okay, that’s how revered Jesus is to Baha’is, but what does it mean when you call him the Messiah?

Further more, how do you defend your version of Jesus against Zechariah 12?

 

[ggarcia19]

I am very surprised that people don’t worship Peter Popoff or Benny Hinn, I know I sound a bit crazy but really. Modern times have showed many other people with great powers. We can’t believe and follow everyone that claims to be a prophet.

 

[tonyfish58]

I am very surprised that people don’t worship Peter Popoff or Benny Hinn, I know I sound a bit crazy but really. Modern times have showed many other people with great powers. We can’t believe and follow everyone that claims to be a prophet.

There is a vast difference when it is Gods Word the Power and Authority cry out to all mankind.

Have a look at these extracts from a Prayer of Baha’u’llah - Link - bahaiprayers.org/ahmad.htm

**"He is the King, the All-Knowing, the Wise! Lo, the Nightingale of Paradise singeth upon the twigs of the Tree of Eternity, with holy and sweet melodies, proclaiming to the sincere ones the glad tidings of the nearness of God, calling the believers in the Divine Unity to the court of the Presence of the Generous One, informing the severed ones of the message which hath been revealed by God, the King, the Glorious, the Peerless, guiding the lovers to the seat of sanctity and to this resplendent Beauty.

Verily this is that Most Great Beauty, foretold in the Books of the Messengers, through Whom truth shall be distinguished from error and the wisdom of every command shall be tested. Verily He is the Tree of Life that bringeth forth the fruits of God, the Exalted, the Powerful, the Great"…

…"Thus doth the Nightingale utter His call unto you from this prison. He hath but to deliver this clear message. Whosoever desireth, let him turn aside from this counsel and whosoever desireth let him choose the path to his Lord.

O people, if ye deny these verses, by what proof have ye believed in God? Produce it, O assemblage of false ones.

Nay, by the One in Whose hand is my soul, they are not, and never shall be able to do this, even should they combine to assist one another"…

…"Rely upon God, thy God and the Lord of thy fathers. For the people are wandering in the paths of delusion, bereft of discernment to see God with their own eyes, or hear His Melody with their own ears. Thus have We found them, as thou also dost witness.

Thus have their superstitions become veils between them and their own hearts and kept them from the path of God, the Exalted, the Great.

Be thou assured in thyself that verily, he who turns away from this Beauty hath also turned away from the Messengers of the past and showeth pride towards God from all eternity to all eternity"…**

Regards Tony

 

[Servant19]

Well the mere fact that I have sinned shows I am not God

Go figure!!

and if God were typing to you in a forum on the internet, I dare suppose you would be converted by now. Now I do not think my example is pointless, nor extreme. You say we Christians are stuck in the past and need to live in the future, accept the current manifestation. You say we refuse new things and stubbornly cling to older beliefs just like the Jews who rejected Christ did. Are you starting to see where I am heading? What i have tried to get you to understand? The future manifestation is going to be radically different from what you expect (i am here only for the sake of argument pretending bahai manifesations instead of fakes wanting money will come). Why if the jews were surprised by Christ, the bahais shouldn’t be surprised by the new guy on the town? Surely thats the cycle that will exist for all eternity? Prophet comes, prophet goes, people reject, people accept and so on and so on ad nauseum.

I cannot read the future and how or IF the next Manifestation of God will be rejected by the masses.

I do know that Baha’u’llah said this:

“This is the Day that shall not be followed by night”

What that means is open to interpretation, but it most definitely refers to the here and now, not some distant time in the future…

I live for today and I learn from the past…

Now in order to answer your question, do you first concede these two points. That to pray constantly and never neglect God is higher than to at times think of worldly things or just not have God in mind?

Yes to pray constantly is better than to be constantly engaged in worldly things like shopping, and fun parks and action movies and Monopoly and “The Young and the Restless”

But engaged in constant prayer is not better than LIVING YOUR LIFE LIKE A PRAYER. And even better than that is to empower several other people to LIVE THEIR LIVES LIKE A PRAYER…that means contributing to teh sustainable END to all human suffering on earth. (I don’t believe shopping in Singapore is in the same category as this)

Secondly do you concede that a family life will neccessarily involve, due to the nature of the work of child bearing a distraction?

God gave us reproductive organs for a reason Ignatian. I intend to fulfill my purpose TO THE FULL, and raise one who will “make mention of Him”

A good distraction, something God does not punish or find fault in, but a distraction none the less?

God gave us the gift of the sacrament of marriage so that we can fulfill our purpose to the maximum capacity. Reproduction IS GOD’S WILL. The marriage sacrament is the divinely ordained institution for His Will to be carried out.

Imagine God giving you a tongue, but you never use it to recite His Word, you just use it to swear at people.

The tongue was made to be kindly to others and attract the hearts of men, to recite the verses of our Lord. (not to swear at people and berate them and offend them)

The eyes were made to bear witness to His love and majesty and grace. (not for watching pornography)

The legs and arms were made to walk down His path and to carry out His Will. (not for kicking and punching people)

The reproductive organs were made for bearing His highest creation, the human being, who will make mention of Him where His light is dimmed (not for castration, or mutilation)

Baha’is intend to BE what we were created to BE…our entire lives should be a prayer.

I suggest our sorry human state in which we forget things related to God all the time is not the ideal or highest form of existence. If we are going to be worshipping God in heaven forever without ceasing, without lacking in joy, without tears, why should it not be the case on earth?

If you do not intend to use the body for its intended purpose why on earth would you want a body in your interpretation of the Day of Resurrection?

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[rinnie]

Given that CAF and the Catholic Faith as a whole is open to the Good in other Religions, I think it is time to discuss this most used accusation when another Religion Brings up the word Prophet.

The accusation that one follows a “False Prophet” is as Old as the Bible itself. It has been used against all the Bible Prophets by the people of the time to reject the new message.

It is the easiest thing to grab hold of an throw at another, but how much thought goes in to this before using it?

It is easy to say now that all who rejected the accused “False Prophets” of Biblical Times, were wrong, very wrong! So why do we not give this warning greater merit, why do we just use it when it goes against what we think is the Truth

Is it time to discuss what would be False and what would be True about a Prophet? Are people ready for what this might reveal?

I hope we all are and I hope we can all discuss this with the Love of God in Mind. I hope this thought provoking question stays on this Forum for discussion.

God Bless all & Regards Tony

Christ told us a you can tell a false prophet by his teachings. If anyone rejects Christ or his Church we are told to stay away they are false prophets.

There are tons of scripture.

Romans 16: 17-18
2 Tim 4:3-4

I think Colossians 2:8 tell it the best.

 

[Servant19]

Okay, that’s how revered Jesus is to Baha’is, but what does it mean when you call him the Messiah?

bahai-library.com/stockman_jesus_bahai_writings

I would humbly submit this for your study, especially the section headed “A Baha’i View of Jesus’ Titles”

Further more, how do you defend your version of Jesus against Zechariah 12?

Zecheriah 12 seems to talk about how during the Last Days (in which we are now living) not only will the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled, and that “In that day shall the Lord protect the inhabitants of Jerusalem”

…“And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.”

…yet, however, “In that day there shall be a great lamentation in Jerusalem”

If you look carefully at Jeruslaem, this is almost a carbon copy picture of what is happening today. It is a city that has many enemies, (nearly all of the Middle East) and those that have come against it (Iraq) was destroyed.

The Lord IS protecting Jerusalem, from pending nuclear attack which has been a threat for years, yet still we see how the wave of terrorism in that city is bring “great lamentation” to its inhabitants.

Zecheriah 12 is a perfect prophecy reflecting these Days, the End Times…

(now for the real stuff. “Jerusalem” has a deeper, spiritual significance. I wonder if you can deduce the spiritual meanings enshrined in Zech 12? The chapter “screams” Baha’u’llahs advent…)

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