False Prophets the most used comeback!

[SteveVH]

The Pope is but a man

Yep.

Baha’u’llah is the Father…

Who is dead and buried in the ground.

I take His Word on how to “apply” these eternal truths over the Pope. Why?

Because the Father has within His short time of establishing His teachings on the planet has united diverse communities, established the emblem of the “oneness of humanity” within hundreds of thousands of localities…something the Pope has yet been unable to do…

The Catholic Church, by its very nature, has united people from every corner of the globe into the family of God, together in oneness; one faith, one truth, one Lord. No other institution even compares as far as diversity of people is concerned. What do you mean this is something the Pope has yet been able to do?

While you make such grandiose claims about Baha’u’llah and his accomplishments I dare say that, relatively speaking, no one has even heard of him nor any of these great things the Baha’i community is purportedly doing. You have a very strange view of reality. certainly has made little to no difference in our world. Contrast this with Christianity and the Catholic Church in particular which has changed the world for the better in more ways than I can count. If you would like a list I would be happy to put one together for you.

Peace.

Steve

 

[Vouthon]

I personally show humility and say I really don’t know who God is…
.

I wish, brother Servant, that you could understand that the Mystery of the Holy Trinity is a Christian’s way of expressing humility before the inexpressible majesty of God. The revelation of the Trinity enhances the Christian’s awareness of His ignorance of Divinity, since even the very idea of God being “One” can breed a familiarity between the divine and the human, a loss of respect for the ineffability of God, since it can lead to the believer picturing God as being like a human “person”. The Trinity augments one’s awareness of how different God in his divine nature is from us, since his triune being is incomprehensible to man.

One Buddhist friend of mine once told me that, “the Trinity is the Christian koan”. A “koan” is of course a paradoxical saying that defies logic and is supposed to "“trip up the rational, analytical, philosophical mind, making room for satori (enlightenment)”.

This is what the Trinity fulfils for Christians. We cannot know God with our minds, his Nature is too incomprehensible to our reason, we must open up to Him with our hearts. The doctrine of the Trinity is deliberately paradoxical. It is supposed to stretch one’s reasoning powers to the limit, until the individual realizes that he cannot comprehend it with his mind and simply has to “let go” and rest in unknowing.

It isn’t meant to be palatable with basic mathematical reasoning skills. The Spanish mystic Blessed Ramon Llull once put forth the truly sweet idea that our grasping after God through the knowledge of our human intelligence is comparable to little children chasing after and trying to catch butterflies in a field. They find themselves unable to catch the insects and instead merely trample on the flowers beneath their feet.

Llull then explained that God shows Himself to the simple in faith, not to the subtle, to the heart and not to the intellect which, while one should stretch it to the full through searching philosophical inquiry, one will eventually reach a dead-end when the door of knowledge closes and we must rest in unknowing, approaching God through “the window of love”,

God wants us not to rationally comprehend the Trinity through logic, but to contemplate this supreme mystery in our soul and thereby enter into the life of the Trinity, to experience and live it:

As it says in the Catechism:

260** The ultimate end of the whole divine economy is the entry of God’s creatures into the perfect unity of the Blessed Trinity.100 But even now we are called to be a dwelling for the Most Holy Trinity: “If a man loves me”, says the Lord, “he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him”:**101

"O my God, Trinity whom I adore, help me forget myself entirely so to establish myself in you, unmovable and peaceful as if my soul were already in eternity. May nothing be able to trouble my peace or make me leave you, O my unchanging God, but may each minute bring me more deeply into your mystery! Grant my soul peace. Make it your heaven, your beloved dwelling and the place of your rest. May I never abandon you there, but may I be there, whole and entire, completely vigilant in my faith, entirely adoring, and wholly given over to your creative action".102

The prayer above in the Catechism is taken from the writings of Blessed Elizabeth of the Trinity.

 

[PRmerger]

Dear PR. If God has spoken to you, and you KNOW that it is God, why are you looking at other canons and Gospels? The only reason why I would even submit to listening to anyone outside the Baha’i Writings is if Baha’u’llah had comanded me to do so, and He had, so I do.

This:

This involves not only recognizing and discerning spirits, but also – and this is decisive – choosing movements of the spirit of good and rejecting those of the spirit of evil–Evangelii Gaudium

Another coincidentally apropos quote from Pope Francis’ Exhortation I am currently reading.

 

[Servant19]

Except when your guy says that the Resurrection wasn’t a physical one–that’s a completely different message than that which was proclaimed for 2000 years.

From my humble understanding…
It wasn’t a physical resurrection, it was a “glorified body” resurrection.

Jesus didn’t ascend into physical clouds, He ascended into “spiritual” clouds. The glorified body is closer to a spiritual body than to a physical body as has been attested by
1Cor 15:43-48 …it is not a natural body at all…
**
“It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.”

“The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual.”

“The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven.”**

.

 

[PRmerger]

From my humble understanding…
It wasn’t a physical resurrection, it was a “glorified body” resurrection.

Jesus didn’t ascend into physical clouds, He ascended into “spiritual” clouds.

You seem to be confused about the difference between a resurrection and an ascension.

Do you believe that Jesus, who was dead, rose from the dead, and had a physical body?

 

[Servant19]

Just as all monotheistic religions do when they define the hidden being of God as One". That is a doctrinal statement, since God as He is in Himself is surely above any numeric value or limitation, yet for the sake of man we say that He is “One” since our concept of a single number is the closest approximation to the divine truth that we can make, or rather that revelation can make on our behalf.

And yet the Baha’i writings do make analogies to explain the relationship between God and His prophets, such as the Sun and the mirror reflecting its light onto human beings as an intermediary.

Also, God’s “attributes”, separate from his unknowable essence, are they not “revealed” through the Manifestations? Indeed does not Baha’u’llah say that all creation expresses in its different elements the various attributes of God?

Yes dear Vouthon, I agree with you that the Baha’i Writings, just like the Catholic Texts does make many allegorical attempts to provide a better understanding for us all.

Yes, the Writings do talk about attributes, and do specify mirrors and images, just as St. Basil talked about mirrors and images when trying to provide “some semblance” of explanation as to how the Manifestation of God is “related” to the “Esssence of Essences” with call God.

But we must couteract that with an understanding that there are at the same time equally contextually relevant (even critical) statements made by Jesus which puts us all in a place of utter humility.

When we say that God is the Ultimate Absolute, and that Jesus is that “Ultimate Absolute” then there simply by logical definition, cannot be a higher Being than that.
Yet the statement “the Father is greater than I” contradicts that.

This puts us in a state of humility, not one of denying all other attemps of understanding as false.

When Baha’u’llah states that “The Father has come” and “Verily I am God” and “This is the Day whereon human ears have been privileged to hear what He Who conversed with God (Moses) heard upon Sinai… what He Who is the Spirit of God (Jesus) heard as He ascended unto Him, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting…”, then we have a situation where your assertion that the Baha’i Writings talk about Mirrors, Images and attributes separated from creation etc becomes somewhat hazy

Again, this puts us in a state of humility, not one of denying all other attempts of understanding as being false.

This is what I mean by humility dear brother. Who am I to assert that Jesus and God are “like this” or Baha’u’llah and God are “like that” and use it as a means to prove that I am in right relatinship with God and you are not?

Who are we? Seriously…

The Nicene Creed was devised by men, nothing more nothing less. Maybe very inspired at the time, for God inspires that which can assist His work in bringing humanity “out of their darkness” and for sure, it may have very well been the plan “at that time” for God to assert Himself in this manner so others would listen to His guidance.

Today, more than that is needed. Reality, reason, intellect, searching and courage, and above all “humility”…we can try and assert certain positions but with the advances of modern science, our intellect and global consciousness we are becoming more and more aware that any assertion that goes beyong the boundaries of human understanding to the exclusion of all other propositions is prideful at the very least.

The best we can know is that there was Jesus and boy did He change the world, and I can assure you, that there was a Baha’u’llah and boy is He changing the world. Who exists “beyond” these Beings, and who is pulling the strings out there, and “how” He is doing it is something we should all try to “lovingly” explore TOGETHER, and where necessary using Scripture to direct our thoughts in one “possible” direction or another…

Where does Christ say there is to be no-one from God, sent as a Prophet after Him?

Where does Christ say that the essence of all Faith relies on His physical resurrection, and that this resurrection has “nothing” spiritual about it?

Where does He say that when a physical body dies that there is nothing left, and therefore because Baha’u’llah physically died we know that He is no longer alive?

I assure you all, Baha’u’llah is more alive today than before, during, and after His physical life.

These are all questions that we should all “humbly” explore together

.

 

[Servant19]

You seem to be confused about the difference between a resurrection and an ascension.

Do you believe that Jesus, who was dead, rose from the dead, and had a physical body?

No, I don’t.

He had a glorified body…

.

 

[Servant19]

I wish, brother Servant, that you could understand that the Mystery of the Holy Trinity is a Christian’s way of expressing humility before the inexpressible majesty of God. The revelation of the Trinity enhances the Christian’s awareness of His ignorance of Divinity, since even the very idea of God being “One” can breed a familiarity between the divine and the human, a loss of respect for the ineffability of God, since it can lead to the believer picturing God as being like a human “person”. The Trinity augments one’s awareness of how different God in his divine nature is from us, since his triune being is incomprehensible to man.

One Buddhist friend of mine once told me that, “the Trinity is the Christian koan”. A “koan” is of course a paradoxical saying that defies logic and is supposed to "“trip up the rational, analytical, philosophical mind, making room for satori (enlightenment)”.

This is what the Trinity fulfils for Christians. We cannot know God with our minds, his Nature is too incomprehensible to our reason, we must open up to Him with our hearts. The doctrine of the Trinity is deliberately paradoxical. It is supposed to stretch one’s reasoning powers to the limit, until the individual realizes that he cannot comprehend it with his mind and simply has to “let go” and rest in unknowing.

It isn’t meant to be palatable with basic mathematical reasoning skills. The Spanish mystic Blessed Ramon Llull once put forth the truly sweet idea that our grasping after God through the knowledge of our human intelligence is comparable to little children chasing after and trying to catch butterflies in a field. They find themselves unable to catch the insects and instead merely trample on the flowers beneath their feet.

Llull then explained that God shows Himself to the simple in faith, not to the subtle, to the heart and not to the intellect which, while one should stretch it to the full through searching philosophical inquiry, one will eventually reach a dead-end when the door of knowledge closes and we must rest in unknowing, approaching God through “the window of love”,

God wants us not to rationally comprehend the Trinity through logic, but to contemplate this supreme mystery in our soul and thereby enter into the life of the Trinity, to experience and live it:

As it says in the Catechism:

The prayer above in the Catechism is taken from the writings of Blessed Elizabeth of the Trinity.

God bless you brother Vouthon

Pleanty to digest and absorb here. I will meditate on these concepts and respond with some further thoughts to explore together again

.

 

[Servant19]

This is what the Trinity fulfils for Christians. We cannot know God with our minds, his Nature is too incomprehensible to our reason, we must open up to Him with our hearts. The doctrine of the Trinity is deliberately paradoxical. It is supposed to stretch one’s reasoning powers to the limit, until the individual realizes that he cannot comprehend it with his mind and simply has to “let go” and rest in unknowing.

Brother Vouthon, I couldn’t help but agree with this paragraph here.

Whilst I cannot “express” in words my understanding of who God is, it does not mean that I do not “feel” it. Far from it. The verses of God infuse themselves with a vitalizing energy within my being so as to sense a dance with God

I wonder though if PR and Steve were to take pity on you also, for saying that you do not know God with your mind, or can express His nature with adequate words:

And if you cannot know truth, then you are not a human who is using his mind.

That is, I think, the saddest thing you’ve ever written here. :sad_yes:

.

 

[Servant19]

Who is dead and buried in the ground.

No dear Steve, My Lord and Master is well and truly alive. More alive than when He blessed us with a physical presence over 100 years ago

The Catholic Church, by its very nature, has united people from every corner of the globe into the family of God, together in oneness; one faith, one truth, one Lord. No other institution even compares as far as diversity of people is concerned. What do you mean this is something the Pope has yet been able to do?

Has the Pope, or the Catholic Church, provided a system whereby the Catholic Church creates bonds of unity and mutual support within each and every neighbourhood where a Catholic may reside?

Does this system provide an avenue whereby “everyone” in that neighbourhood/community (whether Catholic or non-Catholic) is accompanied to walk on a journey which will advance their spiritual capacity to “see Christ in ALL things”?

By accompanied here, I do not mean “invited”, I mean served, selflessley served, and walked with “arm-in-arm”, through their tests and trials, their crises and their victories until they become a champion of Christ?

As I mentioned to Vouthon in a previous thread. Who are the Catholics in my street? Why do they have take no interest in getting to know me as a person and to “accompany” to serve God in a more fulfilling way, to see Christ in all things?

Were it not for my family following the advice of the global community building guidelines of the Universal House of Justice, I would not even know that there were any Catholics on my street. I would not have known that George from number 54 is living alone, his wife has Alzheimers and he is often alone and loves the fact that we often pop over to share a moments prayer with him, praying for his wife, praying for him, praying for other people in similar situations. He loves our children, because they have a zeal for life!
My children love him because they are worshipping God through this act of love.

Were it not for my family knocking on every single door in our neighbourhood, we would not know that there are pre-youth kids who are aware of the massive injustices of the world, yet have no way of knowing where to start in addressing these injustices. We provide an outlet to make permanent, sustainable change, that goes far beyond the any charitable endeavours, because they see that cleaning up the litter on the streets only results in more to be cleaned up next week. So what solutions are there for a sustainable end to littering?

They use their intellect. the spiritual insights they are accompanied to understand and empowered to utilize, embrace a global vision and try things out, learn, consult, study, pray, and advance, advance, advance, embrace more and more pre-youth to join the processes that are transforming the community. I wish I could talk more, much much more, because that is the tip of the iceberg.

The Kingdom of God is being ushered in, being constructed through souls who are tapping into the Holy Spirit, and energized by its vital influence.

And all this from the Words of a false prophet that are too flowery to understand or put into practice

Does the Catholic Church have anything like this?

.

 

[Servant19]

While you make such grandiose claims about Baha’u’llah and his accomplishments I dare say that, relatively speaking, no one has even heard of him

I think “no-one has even heard of Him” is a pretty sweeping generalization Steve
I would ask you to look at how many had heard of Jesus 150 years after His coming? Or even how many Christians there were in the world at that time?
I know this is the age of the internet etc etc, but you forget that the internet has only been in general use for the past 15 years or so.
Finally, you would understand that there are many many many who just like to stick to Tradition. They may have heard the word Baha’i somewhere and have just dismissed it totally

nor any of these great things the Baha’i community is purportedly doing.

While the Baha’i Faith is still learning how to most effectively apply and express the teachings of Baha’u’llah on the community and neighbourhood level, I would ask you to come over and look at what is happening in Perth, Sydney, Brisbane, Adelaide. neighbourhood after neighbourhood are engaging in the processes I describe above…

Here’s a link closer to your home, go take a look at what is being done with some of these pre-teens/pre-youth kids:

coloradobahais.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=107&Itemid=239&lang=en

You have a very strange view of reality. certainly has made little to no difference in our world.

please go and have a look, Steve. You wouldn’t know until you go and see for yourself
There are thousands upon thousands who would disagree with you

Contrast this with Christianity and the Catholic Church in particular which has changed the world for the better in more ways than I can count. If you would like a list I would be happy to put one together for you.

Peace.

Steve

No Steve, I will not need a list at all.

You want me to wave a flag to say BRAVO to the Catholic Church, I will do that in every town I visit. I have never hesitated one second in denying the services that some Catholics have rendered to the world…for centuries…

But to what end Steve?

Where are we right now?
Please do use your God-given power of reflection and analysis and ask yourself, what MORE can I do?

God asks all of us to give MORE, not the same thing again and again only for the suffering to be the same as when we started…

Satanic fancies and idle imaginings have imposed a lethargy upon society and it takes a supreme effort to renounce ourselves from these lethargies and advance our capacity for sustainable and reliable change and service…

.

 

[Servant19]

More astonishingly *apropos-to-this-discussion *words from the great Pope Francis’ Apostolic Exhortation:

At the same time, today’s vast and rapid cultural changes demand that we constantly seek ways of expressing unchanging truths in a language which brings out their abiding newness. “The deposit of the faith is one thing… the way it is expressed is another”.There are times when the faithful, in listening to completely orthodox language, take away something alien to the authentic Gospel of Jesus Christ, because that language is alien to their own way of speaking to and understanding one another. With the holy intent of communicating the truth about God and humanity, we sometimes give them a false god or a human ideal which is not really Christian. In this way, we hold fast to a formulation while failing to convey its substance. This is the greatest danger. Let us never forget that “the expression of truth can take different forms. The renewal of these forms of expression becomes necessary for the sake of transmitting to the people of today the Gospel message** in its unchanging meaning”**.

Isn’t it fascinating that when human beings are moulded to think in a specific way, they only see what they want to see, and as brother Vouthon so beautifully quoted from Blessed Ramon Llull, will often forget that they are trampling on the flowers while they are distracted

I took the liberty to underline what you may have missed which Blessed Pope Francis took great effort to write within this paragraph.

Maybe in my previous posts I used the wrong word. That word was “APPLICATION” of the eternal truths. I now realize that I may have been better off using the word “EXPRESSION”



The Truths are indeed eternal.

The Pope is SEEKING, He is constantly seeking ways of expressing…

“Seeking” means he and the Catholic community are still searching for a better way, a more efficient way, a more fruitful way of of expressing these Truths.

He’s not even seeking once and he finds the answer. He is CONSTANTLY seeking.

Baha’u’llah has provided one way of expressing these eternal Truths, both in the use of His language, and in the manner it is expressed in society on a social level in terms of putting the eternal truths into a structure and framework.

The Pope is seeking, God has provided.

Some will accept, while others will reject, but I in no way endorse that one is better in the sight of God than the other. As long as we are striving for a more righteous relationship with God, imbued with His all-encompassing Spirit and grace, His light will shine on all.

Baha’u’llah has just provided a way to bring this light to the masses, to bring God’s light to the darkened world, and shine it on those that accept AND reject it

.

.

 

[PRmerger]

No, I don’t.

He had a glorified body…

.

Amen!

As long as you believe that Jesus did indeed rise from the dead, body and blood, soul and divinity, then we are good!

 

[PRmerger]

Isn’t it fascinating that when human beings are moulded to think in a specific way, they only see what they want to see,

As long as you include yourself in that, being molded by Bahaullah as well as all your other influences, then we are

I took the liberty to underline what you may have missed which Blessed Pope Francis took great effort to write within this paragraph.

Maybe in my previous posts I used the wrong word. That word was “APPLICATION” of the eternal truths. I now realize that I may have been better off using the word “EXPRESSION”

Yes.

Excellent.

So we are agreed on this, too!

The Truths are indeed eternal.

The Pope is SEEKING, He is constantly seeking ways of expressing…

Yes. That is the human way.

“Seeking” means he and the Catholic community are still searching for a better way, a more efficient way, a more fruitful way of of expressing these Truths.

Yep.

He’s not even seeking once and he finds the answer. He is CONSTANTLY seeking.

Indeed.

Baha’u’llah has provided one way of expressing these eternal Truths, both in the use of His language, and in the manner it is expressed in society on a social level in terms of putting the eternal truths into a structure and framework.

Sure.

And where he says things which are consonant with the truth given once for all, we say

The Pope is seeking, God has provided.

Indeed.

God has provided us with a Person who is this Eternal Word.
The gates of hell will not prevail.

Some will accept, while others will reject, but I in no way endorse that one is better in the sight of God than the other

And that’s why you have been duped by lies.

As long as we are striving for a more righteous relationship with God, imbued with His all-encompassing Spirit and grace, His light will shine on all.

Amen!

Baha’u’llah has just provided a way to bring this light to the masses, to bring God’s light to the darkened world, and shine it on those that accept AND reject it

Except when he professes things which come from the world of darkness.

 

[Servant19]

Amen!

As long as you believe that Jesus did indeed rise from the dead,

Yes!

body and blood

Nope, this is contradicted by the words “natural body” as emphasised in 1Cor 15:43

soul and divinity,

Absolutely

Maybe I have not been duped…

(p.s I still don’t know how the Spirit of Truth differs with the Holy Spirit in your understanding)
.

 

[eddie_too]

the human body of the resurrected Christ was the same human body that was buried in the tomb.

that is why the tomb was, EMPTY after the Lord’s Resurrection.

Jesus did not then, does not now and will never have two human bodies.

He has the one body that was conceived in the womb of the Holy Virgin Mary.

the body that lived on earth teaching the apostles and the crowds, the body that died on the Cross, rose itself from death, vacated the tomb and after forty more days on earth, ascended in to heaven.

the idea that the glorified body is not the same body as the body of Jesus from His conception is an unsupportable conjecture with no basis in fact and no support of any kind.

 

[eddie_too]

bahaullah must be the source of this bahai error.

the very idea that Jesus old body disappeared and that Jesus reappeared in a new body is total and unsupportable conjecture.

i attribute bahaullah’s error in this matter to his ignorance of the teachings of the catholic church and of the old and new testaments.

that is an important reason for knowing that bahaullah is a false prophet. he teaches errors. he is ignorant of the records and teachings of God’s intervention in human history, first through noah, than through abraham and the jews and finally through His Incarnation and the workings and teachings of the Roman Catholic Church.

there is nothing in the hebrew or christian scriptures that indicates God would send a prophet to UNDO all that His Only Begotten Son had accomplished.

since the effect of bahaullah’s writings and teachings is to destroy faith in all that the RCC teaches, it is clear that bahaullah could never be fulfillment of any hebrew or christian scriptures’ teachings or words.

 

[Servant19]

the human body of the resurrected Christ was the same human body that was buried in the tomb.

that is why the tomb was, EMPTY after the Lord’s Resurrection.

Jesus did not then, does not now and will never have two human bodies.

He has the one body that was conceived in the womb of the Holy Virgin Mary.

the body that lived on earth teaching the apostles and the crowds, the body that died on the Cross, rose itself from death, vacated the tomb and after forty more days on earth, ascended in to heaven.

the idea that the glorified body is not the same body as the body of Jesus from His conception is an unsupportable conjecture with no basis in fact and no support of any kind.

Hi eddie,

When Jesus Returns, according to Catholicism, will the new earth, the new Jerusalem, “replace” this one, or will there be two “earths”?

.

 

[Servant19]

there is nothing in the hebrew or christian scriptures that indicates God would send a prophet to UNDO all that His Only Begotten Son had accomplished.

since the effect of bahaullah’s writings and teachings is to destroy faith in all that the RCC teaches, it is clear that bahaullah could never be fulfillment of any hebrew or christian scriptures’ teachings or words.

Is there anything in Hebrew Scripture that indicates that God would send a prophet to UNDO the law of circumcision, or the Sabbath?

Baha’u’llah has not “undone” anything. All of Jesus’ teachings have found fulfilment in Baha’u’llah, just has He fulfilled all of Moses’ commandments.

There are over 600 Mosaic Commandments. Do the Christians follow those Commandments today? Or have they all been “undone”?



.

 

[eddie_too]

the following, from the Cathechism of the Catholic Church, is part of the RCC’s teachings on the biblical words of “new heavens and a new earth” :

“1043 Sacred Scripture calls this mysterious renewal, which will transform humanity and the world, “new heavens and a new earth.”632 It will be the definitive realization of God’s plan to bring under a single head “all things in [Christ], things in heaven and things on earth.633 (671, 280, 518)”.

there are about 36 other refererences to this phrase in the catechism. it is easy to search and can be accessed on line at

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/.

as an aside, what is the relationship you seem to be trying to make between the words “new earth” and whether or not Jesus of Nazareth ended up with two human bodies?

or, what point are you trying to make with your comment about new earth?