False Prophets the most used comeback!

[tonyfish58]

You see, this is why I get so frustrated. I explain your misinterpretation, put forth an argument (as I have with Acts 4 and the historical truth that Christians at no point expected a ‘new manifestation’ of God, but that Jesus was it), and instead of having my points addressed, you deflect the argument by making a different argument.

You LITERALLY just used Scripture to support your position, and then when I show you the context and another verse that declares Christ is the ONLY name by which we’re saved, it becomes all about your prophet and how you’re not a bible scholar, even though you JUST claimed that you interpret Christian Scripture more correctly than Christians in light of your faith, disregarding that a CENTRAL claim of your faith is that all scripture synchronizes. And then you proceed to throw out an ad hominem about my ‘peace’, which is irrelevant to a logical argument (and you’ve done this before, about how I’m not ‘open’, I’ve been warped by humanity, ect).

It is extremely difficult to maintain charity when my attempts at honest arguments are disregarded and ignored, instead being met with quotes from other scriptures, completely different arguments, or interpretations with no historical element whatsoever.

I am sorry I’ve been uncharitable. I’ll try to maintain my charity. But ‘I’m not a bible scholar’ and ‘because my other scriptures say this about your scriptures’ are not satisfactory rebuttals.

God Bless you PeaceInChrist

If you are Frustrated, could we not also be so

But we are told there is no Point in discussion scripture when this is a view “I explain your misinterpretation”.

It means that a decision is already made and one is Out to Prove the Falsity of the reply. If we discuss Faith with intent of Proving someone wrong then basically we are both wrong!

You have made your mind up re our Faith, so how would you have us reply?

Would you not agree it would be just best to let it go?

I can assure you there is an answer to all the questions you ask, but we both know that this has been discussed on CAF with 1000s of threads. I see no point in going over old discussions.

The point of this thread was to determine a True Prophet, but people are afraid to explore this subject.

Time for me to retire - God Bless and regards Tony

 

[PeaceInChrist]

God Bless you PeaceInChrist

If you are Frustrated, could we not also be so

But we are told there is no Point in discussion scripture when this is a view “I explain your misinterpretation”.

It means that a decision is already made and one is Out to Prove the Falsity of the reply. If we discuss Faith with intent of Proving someone wrong then basically we are both wrong!

My friend, you do exactly the same thing. You have rejected Catholic and Orthodox understanding of Scripture, and so whenever you pose an interpretation, it is automatically to prove your position or disprove another. This is the source of my frustration: not that you argue for your faith, but that you claim your arguments are above ours even though you do the same thing.

That, and the use of logic, reason, and primary sources are shunned in favor of quoting your prophet.

You have made your mind up re our Faith, so how would you have us reply?

Would you not agree it would be just best to let it go?

I can assure you there is an answer to all the questions you ask, but we both know that this has been discussed on CAF with 1000s of threads. I see no point in going over old discussions.

Your explanations are based on stringing together select verses from different scriptures and your own prophet, and jumping from minute similarities to different manifestations of God. They are, needless to say, not quite up to the level that Jesus presented the Jews. And I would love to hear your explanation of how we’re saved under no other name than Jesus, but somehow are at the same time saved by every other prophet.

The point of this thread was to determine a True Prophet, but people are afraid to explore this subject.

Time for me to retire - God Bless and regards Tony

Yes, you do seem a little scared to explore the claims made by Jesus and His apostles that He was God incarnate, and that He was, is, and will be. And His name is the only name by which we are saved. But that’s fine.

This thread has consisted of Catholics and Orthodox putting forth historical Christianity, and being met by claims of apostasy and quoted from some prophet. You present no evidence for these claims, except that there were ‘bad’ Christians, even though Jesus and His apostles never said that followers would be perfect. Jesus did say, however, that He’d never leave us. But of course, this is another matter of ‘interpretation’.

And when I level claims of disunity and apostasy in your faith, you laugh to off, even though the claim is just as ridiculous to Catholics and orthodox about their faith.

So allow me again to level the same claim that you’ve leveled without evidence:

sectsofbahais.com

This website shows different sects or divisions that have occurred in Bahai. Your claim of total unity fails if there is even one division. I can also claim that when Shoghi Effendi died without leaving a successor, the faith went into apostasy since it appointed members to the universal house of justice without a living successor to approve of the candidates. So you’re all apostate.

Now here’s the thing: my argument is weak at best. But it’s just as strong as your argument for division and apostasy in Christianity. You have no evidence except conjecture. It’s just as clear to the catholic and orthodox who the rightful successors of the apostles are, as it to you that the universal house of justice is the rightful arbiter of the Bahai. Those who break away are cut off from both faiths. So please don’t claim that it’s not clear who the successors of the apostles are because people have broken away. You as much proof as I do for your faith.

And please don’t tell me my interpretation are incorrect, because mine are backed by 2,000 years of history. Yours are backed by a self proclaimed prophet (the Bab didn’t actually even attest to him directly and in person like John with Jesus, and this link is apparently the defense Bahai’s use thebabhistory.blogspot.com/2009/12/did-bab-and-bahaullah-physically-meet.html?m=1). Please don’t condescend to the historical Christian understanding of our own faith. Please?

 

[Per_Crucem]

My friend, you do exactly the same thing. You have rejected Catholic and Orthodox understanding of Scripture, and so whenever you pose an interpretation, it is automatically to prove your position or disprove another. This is the source of my frustration: not that you argue for your faith, but that you claim your arguments are above ours even though you do the same thing.

That, and the use of logic, reason, and primary sources are shunned in favor of quoting your prophet.

Your explanations are based on stringing together select verses from different scriptures and your own prophet, and jumping from minute similarities to different manifestations of God. They are, needless to say, not quite up to the level that Jesus presented the Jews. And I would love to hear your explanation of how we’re saved under no other name than Jesus, but somehow are at the same time saved by every other prophet.

Yes, you do seem a little scared to explore the claims made by Jesus and His apostles that He was God incarnate, and that He was, is, and will be. And His name is the only name by which we are saved. But that’s fine.

This thread has consisted of Catholics and Orthodox putting forth historical Christianity, and being met by claims of apostasy and quoted from some prophet. You present no evidence for these claims, except that there were ‘bad’ Christians, even though Jesus and His apostles never said that followers would be perfect. Jesus did say, however, that He’d never leave us. But of course, this is another matter of ‘interpretation’.

And when I level claims of disunity and apostasy in your faith, you laugh to off, even though the claim is just as ridiculous to Catholics and orthodox about their faith.

So allow me again to level the same claim that you’ve leveled without evidence:

sectsofbahais.com

This website shows different sects or divisions that have occurred in Bahai. Your claim of total unity fails if there is even one division. I can also claim that when Shoghi Effendi, the faith went into apostasy since it appointed members to the universal house of justice without a living successor to approve of the candidates. So you’re all apostate.

Now here’s the thing: my argument is weak at best. But it’s just as strong as your argument for division and apostasy in Christianity. You have no evidence except conjecture. It’s just as clear to the catholic and orthodox who the rightful successors of the apostles are, as it to you that the universal house of justice is the rightful arbiter of the Bahai. Those who break away are cut off from both faiths. So please don’t claim that it’s not clear who the successors of the apostles are because people have broken away. You as much proof as I do for your faith.

And please don’t tell me my interpretation are incorrect, because mine are backed by 2,000 years of history. Yours are backed by a self proclaimed prophet (the Bab didn’t actually even attest to him directly and in person like John with Jesus, and this link is apparently the defense Bahai’s use thebabhistory.blogspot.com/2009/12/did-bab-and-bahaullah-physically-meet.html?m=1). Please don’t condescend to the historical Christian understanding of our own faith. Please?

Good stuff, right here. Best post I’ve read here in a long time.

 

[daler]

And please don’t tell me my interpretation are incorrect, because mine are backed by 2,000 years of history. Yours are backed by a self proclaimed prophet (the Bab didn’t actually even attest to him directly and in person like John with Jesus, and this link is apparently the defense Bahai’s use thebabhistory.blogspot.com/2009/12/did-bab-and-bahaullah-physically-meet.html?m=1). Please don’t condescend to the historical Christian understanding of our own faith. Please?

Peace in Christ,
. Prior to Jesus, what was the Name by which men were saved?
. My sense of the verse to which you are referring is relative to the time He lived, that among all the other “names”, Jesus was the only valid Name at that time. One might say that of the time of Moses, amidst the people of Pharaoh and their beliefs, or Abraham at the time His father was manufacturing various idols. Calling upon the names of these idols did not lead to salvation. Do you follow the logic here?
. Although you naturally must disagree with the Baha’is from the constraints of your perspective of the uniqueness of the position of Jesus 2000 years ago, you do, of course, await His return, do you not? The Jews also awaited the return of Elijah the Prophet and failed to recognize John the Baptist as fulfilling that return, as Jesus Himself attested. Yet you do accept His testament that the prophecy was in fact fulfilled.

. The Baha’i understanding of “Return” is that the essential Reality which distinguishes Elijah was indeed present in John the Baptist, although He was born not to Elijah’s parents, but as another human being with His own DNA,etc.

. Here is where the use of metaphor is helpful. Consider the rose, which blossomed a year ago, or many years ago. When we await the springtime and the rose finally “returns” which we were expecting, is it the same rose as last year? No. For it has its own shape and form, with petals unique to its individual identity. Yet the requirements of the rose of our expectation have been fulfilled, for it carries the very same beauty and fragrance of last year’s rose, as well as the previous year’s.

. So the “Return” which Christians expect (as did I, for I was also raised Christian) has been interpreted to necessitate the same biological identity, the same DNA, etc, the same “physical” person of Jesus to descend from the heavens. This is what I was taught, and I assume what you were taught, and therefore are expecting, and no matter how many times in the new Spiritual Springtime God sends His Rose, He will be rejected for not being the same individual Rose, with the same DNA, etc, as appeared in the past Dispensation. Precisely, you have the example of Elijah returning in John the Baptist for an example of the truth of this statement, and need no further evidence that this has been God’s method in the past and therefore one should in fact be open to the idea that it may well be how God sends His Messengers in the future, for each is distinctly its own identity as a spiritual Rose, while at the same time fulfills the necessary requirements for being the Return of the Rose which appeared 2000 years ago.

. As to your references from those who have broken the Covenant of Baha’u’llah by creating a false following for themselves which are minute and brief before dissolving, these serve to cleanse the Faith of impure motives centered around egotistical personalities. Again, a metaphor is useful. Consider a tree, from which I may cut a limb. This limb will indeed appear to have life for a few days, yet before long it is certain that, as it is no longer attached to the true tree, it shall wither and die.

. For those who accept a glass of water from any source, it is theirs to live or die, according to the purity or poison of the well. Seek your wells with wisdom.

 

[PeaceInChrist]

Peace in Christ,
. Prior to Jesus, what was the Name by which men were saved?
. My sense of the verse to which you are referring is relative to the time He lived, that among all the other “names”, Jesus was the only valid Name at that time. One might say that of the time of Moses, amidst the people of Pharaoh and their beliefs, or Abraham at the time His father was manufacturing various idols. Calling upon the names of these idols did not lead to salvation. Do you follow the logic here?

Did Moses claim to save the eternal souls of the people? No. Did Jesus? Yes. Moses talked as though he were a servant of God. Jesus spoke both as the Son of God and God Himself. If you actually read Exodus and the New Testament, you’ll see several times that Moses says ‘Thus says the LORD’, while Jesus says ‘but I say to you’ or ‘Amen, Amen, I say to you’. Jesus also says ‘I AM’ several times. TOTALLY different claims, here. So sorry.

Revelation also speaks of Jesus as the Lamb (it distinguishes between Him and God the Father and the Holy Spirit) that was, and is, and is to come. So this doesn’t fit very nicely with ‘at the time’ interpretations, just as it doesn’t fit with Peter’s proclamation by the Spirit that ‘THERE IS NO OTHER NAME UNDER HEAVEN BY WHICH WE ARE SAVED’.

. Although you naturally must disagree with the Baha’is from the constraints of your perspective of the uniqueness of the position of Jesus 2000 years ago, you do, of course, await His return, do you not? The Jews also awaited the return of Elijah the Prophet and failed to recognize John the Baptist as fulfilling that return, as Jesus Himself attested. Yet you do accept His testament that the prophecy was in fact fulfilled.

Jesus even said John came in the spirit of Elijah. Elijah also actually appeared before Jesus at the Transfiguration in the presence of three witnesses (Peter, James, and John). Then we have the fact that John the Baptist ACTUALLY, PHYSICALLY attested to Jesus before many witnesses, whereas the Bab did not testify to Mirza directly at all. That’s a powerful witness, huh? Nothing like self-proclaimed prophets. Oh, sorry, ‘manifestations’ of God.

. The Baha’i understanding of “Return” is that the essential Reality which distinguishes Elijah was indeed present in John the Baptist, although He was born not to Elijah’s parents, but as another human being with His own DNA,etc.

. Here is where the use of metaphor is helpful. Consider the rose, which blossomed a year ago, or many years ago. When we await the springtime and the rose finally “returns” which we were expecting, is it the same rose as last year? No. For it has its own shape and form, with petals unique to its individual identity. Yet the requirements of the rose of our expectation have been fulfilled, for it carries the very same beauty and fragrance of last year’s rose, as well as the previous year’s.

And here is where you depart radically from even the teachings of the Apostles. Apparently Jesus taught his own disciples incorrectly. They, along with their disciples (the Church fathers) believed that JESUS (not some manifestation of Him) was coming again, and they were hoping that it would happen in their own lifetime.

Additionally, as I have already mentioned, ELIJAH also ACTUALLY appeared to Jesus, and John literally, physically, by his own mouth, proclaimed that JESUS was the Lamb of God. Jesus didn’t wait until John died, and then said ‘Yeah, you know what, I definitely think I’m that guy that John was talking about.’ No, this is what Mirza did with the Bab.

. So the “Return” which Christians expect (as did I, for I was also raised Christian) has been interpreted to necessitate the same biological identity, the same DNA, etc, the same “physical” person of Jesus to descend from the heavens. This is what I was taught, and I assume what you were taught, and therefore are expecting, and no matter how many times in the new Spiritual Springtime God sends His Rose, He will be rejected for not being the same individual Rose, with the same DNA, etc, as appeared in the past Dispensation. Precisely, you have the example of Elijah returning in John the Baptist for an example of the truth of this statement, and need no further evidence that this has been God’s method in the past and therefore one should in fact be open to the idea that it may well be how God sends His Messengers in the future, for each is distinctly its own identity as a spiritual Rose, while at the same time fulfills the necessary requirements for being the Return of the Rose which appeared 2000 years ago.

Except that the Jews were expecting a Messiah (that had to be of the House of David and a Jew). The Muslims and Christians never expected an additional Messiah. Our Scriptures REPEATEDLY refer to Jesus coming again. They continually attest to Jesus as eternal. JESUS. Not anyone ‘like’ Jesus. Under NO OTHER NAME shall we be saved. Even His disciples literally thought He was coming back, probably in their lifetimes. So are you wiser than the Apostles, the very people Jesus taught?

Your ‘interpretation’ of verses like that is not historical AT ALL (which you failed to address several times. Those silly Church Fathers are always cramping your style, huh?).

As for Elijah, we have Elijah LITERALLY appearing before Christ, as well as John’s spirit of Elijah, and the physical attestation to Jesus, which Mirza lacks on all accounts.

continued…

 

[PeaceInChrist]

…continued

. As to your references from those who have broken the Covenant of Baha’u’llah by creating a false following for themselves which are minute and brief before dissolving, these serve to cleanse the Faith of impure motives centered around egotistical personalities. Again, a metaphor is useful. Consider a tree, from which I may cut a limb. This limb will indeed appear to have life for a few days, yet before long it is certain that, as it is no longer attached to the true tree, it shall wither and die.

You know what, I agree with you. You have a central authority to your faith, and schismatics are not evidence of apostasy.** And since you’ve said as much about your faith, you by default agree with me that Christianity never apostasized, and that we have the true successors of the apostles leading us to this very day, because we have an unbroken chain from the beginning and historical documentation**. If you don’t, then you by default allow my criticism of your own apostasy, because I have presented equal proof to you as you have to me.

For those who accept a glass of water from any source, it is theirs to live or die, according to the purity or poison of the well. Seek your wells with wisdom.

To accept Jesus Christ as the only true Lord over all, you must be opened to the Holy Spirit and seek truth with reason.

Hey, look, I can say mystical sounding stuff like that, too! Too bad it gives nothing to the argument except making you seem self-righteous and above me, which is why I own’t use it in a LOGICAL ARGUMENT.

Now, let’s address some things you didn’t sufficiently answer:

1. the Bab not physically or actually attesting to the individual named Mirza at all (there were 24 other claimants, if I remember correctly. John only attested to Jesus).
2. The continuity of the Church Fathers from the first century to the present time, proclaiming that Jesus would literally come back (and not some other guy), and that He was not only a manifestation of God, but actually, literally, truly God Himself. Again, do you know better than the very people Jesus taught?
3. Divisions in your faith being allowable because they’re cut off, while divisions in my faith are not allowed somehow, even though they are cut off.
4. Scripture attesting to JESUS as the ONE WHO WAS, IS, AND IS TO COME. Not anyone else. Jesus.
5. The declaration that Jesus is the ONLY name under which we are saved. Not the only name until someone else comes, but the ONLY name. No qualifications or stipulations here, unless you are a gold-medal-winning mental gymnast.
6. The lack of fulfillment of any of the Christian Scriptures prophesy about the coming of Christ. Example:

“For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather. “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”

Please respond to all of my points (not just the numbered ones, but all of the things I said, even my paragraphs). I do the same for you.

 

[daler]

…

Please respond to all of my points (not just the numbered ones, but all of the things I said, even my paragraphs). I do the same for you.

The difficulty that I have with responding to your “points” is that there is an argumentative spirit of contest about it which is in contrast to the Baha’i view that “All of the Prophets proclaim the same Faith”. The theological reasoning behind this statement is sound when once one understands Them to be limited to speaking about the Prophets of the One God, Who sends His Messengers.

Where there seems to be emotional appeals and attacks against against the beliefs of people who hold different religious views discussion usually proves fruitless, due to the unwillingness of certain ones to consider the legitimacy of another’s viewpoint. Jesus did not come to oppose or contradict Moses, but came in fulfillment of that which was prophesied of Him. The Jews have never accepted this, though many Jewish scholars have studied the matter deeply. For those who have concluded that Christ was the Messiah, they naturally became Christians.

Similarly, Muhammad did not come to oppose or contradict Jesus, although Christian scholars do not accept this, or else they would become Muslims. There are, of course, many Jews who became Christians, as well as many Jews and Christians who have become Muslims. I have studied the works of people of Jewish, Christian, and Muslim background who have become Baha’i, read the arguments and proofs which led them to their new understanding, and concur with the abundant evidence they present.

It is true that in order to progress from one system of beliefs to another, a departure from “the fold” necessarily takes place, including rejection of standard literal interpretations held by the adherents of the former religion, much of the meaning of which has been “sealed”, according to their own Scriptures. Yet, reasons are cited, and often emotional excitement and insistence on a particular rationale are asserted, such that there is the same blindness today that existed in the time of Jesus when He repeatedly spoke of the Pharisees as being blind: “Eyes they have, but see not.”

So there is a spiritual barrier which cannot be overcome by even the most sound and irrefutable evidence, such as the prophecies which Jesus fulfilled by His coming, and those fulfilled by the coming of the Bab and Baha’u’llah. Those who followed Christ were subjected to the same criticisms by the Jews as are commonly experienced by the Baha’is in this day. Indeed, in every age the same pattern emerges wherein the same spirit of opposition takes form from the same temperaments deposited in the same hardened hearts.

. "Consider the former generations. Witness how every time the Day Star of Divine bounty hath shed the light of His Revelation upon the world, the people of His Day have arisen against Him, and repudiated His truth. They who were regarded as the leaders of men have invariably striven to hinder their followers from turning unto Him Who is the Ocean of God’s limitless bounty.

. Behold how the people, as a result of the verdict pronounced by the divines of His age, have cast Abraham, the Friend of God, into fire; how Moses, He Who held converse with the Almighty, was denounced as liar and slanderer. Reflect how Jesus, the Spirit of God, was, notwithstanding His extreme meekness and perfect tender-heartedness, treated by His enemies. So fierce was the opposition which He, the Essence of Being and Lord of the visible and invisible, had to face, that He had nowhere to lay His head. He wandered continually from place to place, deprived of a permanent abode. Ponder that which befell Muhammad, the Seal of the Prophets…"

. "Thou hast known how grievously the Prophets of God, His Messengers and Chosen Ones, have been afflicted. Meditate a while on the motive and reason which have been responsible for such a persecution. At no time, in no Dispensation, have the Prophets of God escaped the blasphemy of their enemies, the cruelty of their oppressors, the denunciation of the learned of their age, who appeared in the guise of uprightness and piety. Day and night they passed through such agonies as none can ever measure, except the knowledge of the one true God, exalted be His glory.

. Consider this wronged One. Though the clearest proofs attest the truth of His Cause; though the prophecies He, in an unmistakable language, hath made have been fulfilled; though, in spite of His not being accounted among the learned, His being unschooled and inexperienced in the disputations current among the divines, He hath rained upon men the showers of His manifold and Divinely-inspired knowledge; yet, behold how this generation hath rejected His authority, and rebelled against Him! He hath, during the greater part of His life, been sore-tried in the clutches of His enemies…"

bahaullah.com/bahaullah-writings-god-part2.html

 

[PeaceInChrist]

If you will not respond further, that is fine. I have been uncharitable and cynical at many points. For that, I apologize. I get caught up in the debate at times. However, I stand by the points I’ve made throughout the thread, and I hope readers won’t allow my lack of charity to get in the way of any truth I’ve spoken.

 

[vsedriver]

The point of this thread was to determine a True Prophet, but people are afraid to explore this subject.

Time for me to retire - God Bless and regards Tony

The question has been asked and answered.

Any prophet who does not preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ in union with the Catholic Church is a false prophet because God would not send a messenger to contradict himself.

 

[Servant19]

The question has been asked and answered.

Any prophet who does not preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ in union with the Catholic Church is a false prophet because God would not send a messenger to contradict himself.

What therefore is a true prophet based in your statement above?

.

 

[vsedriver]

The difficulty that I have with responding to your “points” is that there is an argumentative spirit of contest about it which is in contrast to the Baha’i view that “All of the Prophets proclaim the same Faith”. The theological reasoning behind this statement is sound when once one understands Them to be limited to speaking about the Prophets of the One God, Who sends His Messengers.

It’s called a ‘dialog’. Nothing argumentative or in the spirit of contest. Just statements awaiting a reply. It is you who dodge the dialog by saying it is argumentative and not in the spirit of your faith. that’s like saying I don’t care what you are saying I don’t like the ‘tone’ of your voice.

All the prophets may be talking about the One God but that doesn’t mean they are TRUE prophets. Even false prophets can talk about the One God.

Where there seems to be emotional appeals and attacks against against the beliefs of people who hold different religious views discussion usually proves fruitless, due to the unwillingness of certain ones to consider the legitimacy of another’s viewpoint.

There have been no emotional appeals on anyone’s part save yours. Either a statement is true or false. To determine if a statement is true or false you must present evidence and evaluate that evidence. So far you evidence is weak or non-existent.

Jesus did not come to oppose or contradict Moses, but came in fulfillment of that which was prophesied of Him. The Jews have never accepted this, though many Jewish scholars have studied the matter deeply. For those who have concluded that Christ was the Messiah, they naturally became Christians.

Exactly, it is unfortunate that they failed to understand who Jesus is. However the Jews are still the Chosen People and still worship God the Father. So they have part of the Truth.

Similarly, Muhammad did not come to oppose or contradict Jesus, although Christian scholars do not accept this, or else they would become Muslims. There are, of course, many Jews who became Christians, as well as many Jews and Christians who have become Muslims. I have studied the works of people of Jewish, Christian, and Muslim background who have become Baha’i, read the arguments and proofs which led them to their new understanding, and concur with the abundant evidence they present.

Muhammad never knew Jesus. He may have heard of him but he did not know who he was or he would have become a Christian. Obviously many people fail to read and study with the right materials. If you truly know who Jesus is there is not other choice than to be a Christian.

It is true that in order to progress from one system of beliefs to another, a departure from “the fold” necessarily takes place, including rejection of standard literal interpretations held by the adherents of the former religion, much of the meaning of which has been “sealed”, according to their own Scriptures. Yet, reasons are cited, and often emotional excitement and insistence on a particular rationale are asserted, such that there is the same blindness today that existed in the time of Jesus when He repeatedly spoke of the Pharisees as being blind: “Eyes they have, but see not.”

Yes, people reject Truth all the time. They generally reject it because it doesn’t fit with their personal idea of who God is and how he should behave. A classic case of creating God in our own image.

So there is a spiritual barrier which cannot be overcome by even the most sound and irrefutable evidence, such as the prophecies which Jesus fulfilled by His coming, and those fulfilled by the coming of the Bab and Baha’u’llah. Those who followed Christ were subjected to the same criticisms by the Jews as are commonly experienced by the Baha’is in this day. Indeed, in every age the same pattern emerges wherein the same spirit of opposition takes form from the same temperaments deposited in the same hardened hearts.

Yes, the devil repeatedly tries to lead us away from the Truth. Over and over we are told here is the new prophet the one with all the answers. But the True prophet has left all we need in the bosom of his holy church.

. "Consider the former generations. Witness how every time the Day Star of Divine bounty hath shed the light of His Revelation upon the world, the people of His Day have arisen against Him, and repudiated His truth. They who were regarded as the leaders of men have invariably striven to hinder their followers from turning unto Him Who is the Ocean of God’s limitless bounty.

???

. Behold how the people, as a result of the verdict pronounced by the divines of His age, have cast Abraham, the Friend of God, into fire; how Moses, He Who held converse with the Almighty, was denounced as liar and slanderer. Reflect how Jesus, the Spirit of God, was, notwithstanding His extreme meekness and perfect tender-heartedness, treated by His enemies. So fierce was the opposition which He, the Essence of Being and Lord of the visible and invisible, had to face, that He had nowhere to lay His head. He wandered continually from place to place, deprived of a permanent abode. Ponder that which befell Muhammad, the Seal of the Prophets…"

And so this is why we have difficulty in dialoging. You haven’t the faintest clue who Jesus Christ is.

 

[vsedriver]

What therefore is a true prophet based in your statement above?

.

A true prophet preaches the Gospel of Jesus Christ and is in union with and submissive to the Catholic Church.

 

[Servant19]

A true prophet preaches the Gospel of Jesus Christ and is in union with and submissive to the Catholic Church.

Did Moses, Elijah etcetc preach the Gospel? Or were they not true Prophets?

.

 

[Servant19]

It’s called a ‘dialog’. Nothing argumentative or in the spirit of contest. Just statements awaiting a reply. It is you who dodge the dialog by saying it is argumentative and not in the spirit of your faith. that’s like saying I don’t care what you are saying I don’t like the ‘tone’ of your voice.

All the prophets may be talking about the One God but that doesn’t mean they are TRUE prophets. Even false prophets can talk about the One God.

There have been no emotional appeals on anyone’s part save yours. Either a statement is true or false. To determine if a statement is true or false you must present evidence and evaluate that evidence. So far you evidence is weak or non-existent.

Exactly, it is unfortunate that they failed to understand who Jesus is. However the Jews are still the Chosen People and still worship God the Father. So they have part of the Truth.

Muhammad never knew Jesus. He may have heard of him but he did not know who he was or he would have become a Christian. Obviously many people fail to read and study with the right materials. If you truly know who Jesus is there is not other choice than to be a Christian.

Yes, people reject Truth all the time. They generally reject it because it doesn’t fit with their personal idea of who God is and how he should behave. A classic case of creating God in our own image.

Yes, the devil repeatedly tries to lead us away from the Truth. Over and over we are told here is the new prophet the one with all the answers. But the True prophet has left all we need in the bosom of his holy church.

???
And so this is why we have difficulty in dialoging. You haven’t the faintest clue who Jesus Christ is.

Dear vse, please don’t think that the Bahai Faith has an official response to every single verse of the NT. If it is not within the Bahai Writings we are dealing with conjecture and Baha’is strive to avoid expressing figments of human imagination.

It is for this reason that some aspects of your post is not responded to. It is not out of disrespect, it’s simply a humility to say “We don’t know”

There are several aspects of OT scripture which was not FULLY addressed by Christ. If EVERY verse of the OT was fully addressed and clearly explained by Jesus then there would be nowhere to turn for the Jews but to have accepted Him. But history tells us that did not happen.

History often repeats itself. There are millions of Christisns who have, at such an early stage of the Bahai Faiths history, acknowledged the validity of The Bab and Baha’u’llah’s claims and many having studied it to a scholarly level.

This is the reality and to expect us to respond or else you are going to get “upset” as has been demonstrated in this thread is uncharitable and dare I say it, un-Christian…

.

 

[eddie_too]

the forgiveness of sins exists only in and through the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.

all true prophets will bow before Jesus and acknowledge Him as the One God because they know that without God’s fogiveness, won for mankind by the sacrifice of Jesus, all else is for naught.

since the forgiveness of sins is possible and available only through Jesus, those who do not acknowledge Jesus as the Savior of the World, must necessarily, be false prophets because their teachings lead people away from Jesus.

 

[Servant19]

the forgiveness of sins exists only in and through the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.

all true prophets will bow before Jesus and acknowledge Him as the One God because they know that without God’s fogiveness, won for mankind by the sacrifice of Jesus, all else is for naught.

since the forgiveness of sins is possible and available only through Jesus, those who do not acknowledge Jesus as the Savior of the World, must necessarily, be false prophets because their teachings lead people away from Jesus.

When you were at school eddie, who was the “Saviour” of your seventh grade end of year examination? Obviously your seventh grade teacher right. “No one gets past grade 7 except through me” she would tell her class.

When you got to university, did you still insist on your 7th grade teacher?

Baha’u’llah fully acknowledges the role of Jesus in salvation history, but He was not and will not be the only one, and neither is Baha’u’llah. On this earthly plane we see them as distinct and like to “compete” them against one another.

In the REAL Divine plane, there is only oneness between Jesus and Baha’u’llah

.

 

[eddie_too]

bahai seem to believe that they can, through the teachings of bahaullah, turn this world in to heaven.

RCs reject that belief in its entirety.

utopianism is a political belief system. it has nothing to do with almighty God or His revelations to mankind.

a one world government will not eliminate pain and suffering. it will not eliminate strife and conflict.

it may eliminate strife and conflict between nations by eliminating tribal sovereignty over land masses, but individuals will still suffer from the same causes they suffer from currently.

utopianism is a mental illness. it is a self-delusion. its causes most likely vary from believer to believer.

 

[Servant19]

bahai seem to believe that they can, through the teachings of bahaullah, turn this world in to heaven.

RCs reject that belief in its entirety.

utopianism is a political belief system. it has nothing to do with almighty God or His revelations to mankind.

a one world government will not eliminate pain and suffering. it will not eliminate strife and conflict.

it may eliminate strife and conflict between nations by eliminating tribal sovereignty over land masses, but individuals will still suffer from the same causes they suffer from currently.

utopianism is a mental illness. it is a self-delusion. its causes most likely vary from believer to believer.

Have you ever lived in a world that abides by a one world government?

Can you show me in a medical text where Utopianism is a mental illness?

You seem to know a lot about something the world has never experienced.

There was a time when the people of Eastern USA were willing to kill AT WILL anyone from the Western USA. I guess the thought of one US GOVERNMENT was a utopia back then too, that’ll never happen they said…

What about Europe, no way will East Germany ever, not ever, sit at a table with a West German politician, oh wait…

.

 

[MichaelinMD]

Have you ever lived in a world that abides by a one world government?

Can you show me in a medical text where Utopianism is a mental illness?

You seem to know a lot about something the world has never experienced.

There was a time when the people of Eastern USA were willing to kill AT WILL anyone from the Western USA. I guess the thought of one US GOVERNMENT was a utopia back then too, that’ll never happen they said…

What about Europe, no way will East Germany ever, not ever, sit at a table with a West German politician, oh wait…

.

You, too, seem to “know a lot about something the world has never experienced.”

St. Paul, in his letter to the Romans, teaches us, amongst many other things, to be in the world, not of it. Now, this can mean many things and could be a topic of discussion for another thread, perhaps.

Then there’s the Psalms, specifically Ps. 146:3 and Ps.118:8, which teach us about not putting our trust in princes or men.

What is a government made up of, whether of a county, a province, a country, or a One World government? Men, as in people. What’s the problem with people? With the exception of living saints (and how many of those are there these days??), we are all sinful, all fallen. And when we put more and more of that sinfulness, that falleness in greater and greater concentration, well…Suffice it to say, that “Power corrupts. And absolute power corrupts absolutely.” So, unless your One World Gov’t. is going to be composed of living saints…

 

[daler]

What is a government made up of, whether of a county, a province, a country, or a One World government? Men, as in people. What’s the problem with people? With the exception of living saints (and how many of those are there these days??), we are all sinful, all fallen. And when we put more and more of that sinfulness, that falleness in greater and greater concentration, well…Suffice it to say, that “Power corrupts. And absolute power corrupts absolutely.” So, unless your One World Gov’t. is going to be composed of living saints…

Isaiah 9:7 speaks of “your” One World Government:

. “Of the greatness of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David’s throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this.”

. Allow me to ask you who do you suppose this government will be made up of?

. Although it is clearly prophesied, you have already determined that “Power corrupts absolutely” and set yourself against that which Isaiah foretold and somehow have elevated yourself to a position of authority, above God, as the sole interpreter of Scripture, to whom we must turn for understanding…

. Now when Christ came, 2000 years ago, what was the duty of those who recognized Him as the Messiah? Was it not to declare their beliefs among the nations? When they were subjected to the criticisms and persecution of the peoples of the former Faith, were they suddenly excused from their duty?

. Whatever one’s Faith is, it is his/her duty to declare it, even in the face of opposition and cruelty. This is the test of conviction, and the only means to demonstrate that conviction is to proclaim one’s belief, especially in the atmosphere of rejection and ridicule. In this process, people are separated into two camps: believers and non-believers.

. “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.” Jesus, Matthew 10:34

. He then goes on to say that even family members will be divided on account of Him. Do you suppose yourself to be immune from this process of division? And when it is time for the One Fold and the One Shepherd, who shall enter the Fold and who shall find themselves fenced out by reason of their failure to recognize the Shepherd? For “One shall be taken and the other left.”

. And do you suppose that those who are left behind shall not be cursing the Lord and making excuses, saying “He didn’t do this and such, according to that and this…” which is exactly what you are doing. By this means the Pharisees sought to stone Jesus, and had Him crucified, saying whatever it is they came up with to declare their superiority to Him, the Lord of Lords.

. And before they crucified Him, He turned to them and said: “Beholdest thou not the Son of Man seated on the right hand of power and might?” But no… they saw only a mere human being, a captive in their hands, seemingly powerless in their grip.

. But where are they now? Even as the one on the cross went to hell, while the one to turned to Him was the recipient of the promise of the Lord: “Today thou shalt be with me in paradise.”