False Prophets the most used comeback!

[tonyfish58]

Except we have no objection to Jewish fathers. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, even up to the Maccabees. So, since we take into account all the teachings of the Jewish fathers, shouldn’t you take into account the Church fathers?

Of course, you and I both know you can’t. If you do, you’ll be left with Catholic Christology and an authoritative Church.

In clarifying this point

The Word as recorded in the Bible is what we all Hold to. The point is here that one would not Hold to the views of the Jewish Fathers/Priests.

If one did one would Reject Christ as they did.

The Old Testament is to be viewed in Light of the New Word.

Thus does Faith grow from age to age. One needs to apply the Koran understanding of the New Testament to enable a fuller understanding for the Context of Gods Purpose for Mankind and then Apply the Words of Baha’u’llah to the Koran and Bible for the Fulfillment of the Purpose.

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[Servant19]

it is decided by the Bishops of the Church in Communion with the Pope (chair of Peter). The authority was given to the Church by Jesus Christ. Here are two verses that show the authority Christ is granting to Peter specifically and to the other apostles.

matthew 16: [18] And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. [19] And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

matthew 18: [18] Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven.

Ok, so you are saying that by the authority vested in Peter, he stated that :

"The OT clearly identifies who were the true prophets prior to the coming of Jesus Christ.

After the death of Jesus Christ the only way to identify a true prophet would be by the way he preaches the Gospel of Jesus Christ and is in union with the Catholic Church."

Can you point me in the right direction to where Peter stated as such?

.

---

 

[Servant19]

You are here at CAF to learn 2000 year old teachings. Get off your high horse first and show some respect for Catholicism. Of course we know the Holy Spirit existed before the Jesus (born of the Virgin Mary) became man. However Moses and Abraham waited for Jesus.

The Holy Spirit is a person. And the world learned this teaching from Catholicism. Fulfilled in law and through the Prophets by Jesus who through him, we Praise Thank and Worship God in Fullness.

MJ

Dear Martin, how does this answer the question as to why the Holy Spirit animates the chosen ones of Catholicism only?

.

 

[Servant19]

The first successor to Peter was Linus. It was very important for the apostles and their successors to keep track of their succession (at least in Rome), because heretical groups like the Gnostics and judaisers claimed they were true successors. Ireneaus, in 180 AD (about 150 years after Jesus, imagine that) wrote that Apostolic Succession was the true measure of the apostolic Church (and he even cited all the successors at Rome up to his time).

Can you please show me where Peter authoritatively appointed Linus as his successor?

See ‘Against Heresies’ book 3, chapter 3. Google it. Good read.

Thankyou for this, I will read it now

So you see, this is why I am indignant at your proclaimed knowledge of our scriptures. The fathers of our church (who lived very close to Jesus’s time) have a very different opinion than you and Mirza.

Can you please be VERY specific as what you are referring to here please? Which differences of opinion are you talking about?
Maybe this is an area for further discussion and clarification…

Also, you didn’t answer my numbered sections. But thank you for what you did write.

I will try and address those for you as soon as I can.

I too asked you several questions in my response posts, would you mind sharing your answers please?

God bless you

.

 

[eddie_too]

christianity is for sinful human beings.

if a human being has not sinned, they have no need for Jesus.

if a human being has sinned, it is only throught the blood of Jesus Christ crucified that their sins can be forgiven.

no one but Jesus offers sinful men forgiveness of their sins and eternal salvation.

 

[Servant19]

So let me get this straight… you are relying on scholars that claim the NT is historically incorrect to prove that it is incorrect (while disregarding ‘highly respected’ scholars who say the opposite), while you reject catholic tradition because it happened too long ago, and then claim you’re right because Mirza appeared only 150 years ago?

No, I am not disregarding anyone at all.

I am saying that there is doubt.

I therefore strive to have the foundations of my Faith built on things that are less doubtful, and the Bab and Baha’u’llah are the PERFECT foundations for the faith of every individual on the planet if only they would detach themselves from “traditions” … thats my opinion anyway, but you are welcome to tell me to go jump

150 years after Jesus, we have the writings of the CHURCH FATHERS.

150 years is a “looooong” time
We also are unaware of the “culture” in which those Writings of the Church Fathers were written. What was the prevalent condition of society at that time?

What was the dominant “style” of language used to convey spiritual themes to those that were seeking God?

…these are all questions that are not able to be answered today, with certainty …

They proclaim the same faith we do today. Tell me why your reinterpretation of history is not subject to the successors of the apostles?

Because if things like the resurrection of the Saints did really occur, Josephus, at the very least would have recorded it…all these resurrected saints walking the streets for all to see and it didn’t create the biggest stir in the history of the Roman Empire??

Imagine today we had no phones and no communications other than face to face talking. Now imagine there were a hundred dead people resurrected in your local town. There would be so much running and pandemonium that the entire town would be going bananas within seconds. Surely the Roman authorities would be talking about it for decades, and would have recorded it. They were absolutely awesome at making records…

Why did this not happen?

You do know we have writings of church fathers from the first and second centuries attesting to apostolic succession, the Eucharist, the second coming/parousia, ect? Read them.

Yes, thank you, I have read a few…

But I guess what is true becomes false when ‘better’ truths come along…

No what is the expression of Truth evolves as humanity evolves. Truth is “expressed” in the human countenance. Faith and truth mean nothing if they are not expressed in “deeds”…how eternal Truths should be “expressed” in order to carry forward the Will of God changes as the needs and requirements of humanity changes as material existence evolves, social consciousness evolves and the intellect evolves.

The human intellect today is not in the same ball-park as the human intellect 2000 years ago.

Also, his own disciples went to their deaths claiming that Jesus rose. They gained NOTHING from making that claim, but they made it anyway. They died in horrible ways making that claim, and they never took it back. Why would they lie about something like that and then get tortured for it? Obviously if you don’t believe in the Ressirection, you can’t take the bible as inspired. It’s one of the main claims of the NT. If it’s false, then it’s a large collection of ancient lies about a traveling rabbi that got himself killed.

Yes, I am familiar with these incidents and it is truly sad that these martyrdoms occur when the Faith of God is setting the souls of men on fire with His love. Can you tell me which of Jesus’ disciples were specifically asked to deny the body resurrection of Jesus and they refused to do so?

Just to clarify the Baha’i position for you, there is no denial of the Resurrection of Jesus. Baha’is do believe that Jesus is very much alive today in heaven at the right hand of the Father, we just do not believe He is in a natural, physical body.



.

 

[MartinJordan]

Dear Martin, how does this answer the question as to why the Holy Spirit animates the chosen ones of Catholicism only?

.

The Holy Spirit was revealed by the Catholic church. Any other spirit isn’t Holy and a only a spirit of confusion. Anyone reading the Bible must accept that it was by the Church for the Church. Interpretation BELONGS to the Church of 2000 years strong and alive.

MJ

 

[Servant19]

The Holy Spirit was revealed by the Catholic church. Any other spirit isn’t Holy and a only a spirit of confusion. Anyone reading the Bible must accept that it was by the Church for the Church. Interpretation BELONGS to the Church of 2000 years strong and alive.

MJ

britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/559342/Spenta-Mainyu

I believe Zoroaster came long before Jesus…

.

 

[MartinJordan]

britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/559342/Spenta-Mainyu

I believe Zoroaster came long before Jesus…

.

Spirit of confusion as I said. Btw, you’re not going to find Love in this kind of spirit. :sad_yes:

MJ

 

[Servant19]

Spirit of confusion as I said. Btw, you’re not going to find Love in this kind of spirit. :sad_yes:

MJ

I’m trying to find the Truth without denying ALL other religions and practices of devotion and love, just for the sake of denying them…

If I lose friends because of my quest for love and union with God, then so be it…I only need God as a friend

.

 

[MartinJordan]

I’m trying to find the Truth without denying ALL other religions and practices of devotion and love.

If I lose friends because of my quest for love and union with God, then so be it…I only need God as a friend

.

1 John 5:1-6

Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is a child of God, and to love the parent is to love his child. If we love God, and keep his commandments, we can be sure of loving God’s children. Loving God means keeping his commandments, and these commandments of his are not a burden to us.

Whatever takes its** origin from God** must needs triumph over the world;** our faith,** that is the triumphant principle which** triumphs over the world**. He alone triumphs over the world, who believes that Jesus is the Son of God. He it is, Jesus Christ, whose coming has been made known to us by water and blood; water and blood as well, not water only; and we have the Spirit’s witness that Christ is the truth.



MJ

 

[Servant19]

1 John 5:1-6

Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is a child of God,

I believe that Jesus is the Christ…

and to love the parent is to love his child.

I love the parent AND the child. Ask me to recant my faith in Jesus or die, I choose death…

If we love God, and keep his commandments, we can be sure of loving God’s children. Loving God means keeping his commandments, and these commandments of his are not a burden to us.

This is exactly why I started this thread here:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=865136

So I can ensure that there is not one commandment of Jesus that I am not following.

I follow all of Jesus’ commandments to an extreme level. His commandments have been fulfilled to the highest heavens the moment I fell in love with Baha’u’llah’s teachings…

Why are you denying me this love?

Whatever takes its** origin from God** must needs triumph over the world;** our faith,** that is the triumphant principle which** triumphs over the world**. He alone triumphs over the world, who believes that Jesus is the Son of God. He it is, Jesus Christ, whose coming has been made known to us by water and blood; water and blood as well, not water only; and we have the Spirit’s witness that Christ is the truth.

MJ

I will not stoop to the level of belief that says that Christ’s Truth denies Zoroaster’s Truth. (or the Truth of any of the Messengers of God)

.

 

[daler]

Except we have no objection to Jewish fathers. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, even up to the Maccabees. So, since we take into account all the teachings of the Jewish fathers, shouldn’t you take into account the Church fathers?

Of course, you and I both know you can’t. If you do, you’ll be left with Catholic Christology and an authoritative Church.

Quite frankly, had the Jewish fathers recognized Jesus, they would be known as Christians. It seems that men are fallible.

As I believe the men continue to be fallible, and fail to recognize the Manifestations of God, although they cling to traditions and their sacred institutions, that a pattern presents itself, over and over and over again.

This pattern repeated itself at the time of the coming of Muhammad, and is repeating itself again in this day with the coming of the Bab and Baha’u’llah. Jesus Himself called the Jewish fathers blind, did He not? or at least the Pharisees. What is to prevent people from this blindness to which He refers in this age? Is it not a test? A test to separate those who have eyes to see from those who have eyes, but see not?

I refer you to the Kitab-i-Iqan, pargraph 236, 237

. “After the denials and denunciations which they uttered, and unto which We have referred, they protested saying: “No independent Prophet, according to our Scriptures, should arise after Moses and Jesus to abolish the Law of divine Revelation. Nay, he that is to be made manifest must needs fulfil the Law.” Thereupon this verse, indicative of all the divine themes, and testifying to the truth that the flow of the grace of the All-Merciful can never cease, was revealed: “And Joseph came to you aforetime with clear tokens, but ye ceased not to doubt of the message with which He came to you, until, when He died, ye said, ‘God will by no means raise up a Messenger after Him.’ Thus God misleadeth him who is the transgressor the doubter.” Therefore, understand from this verse and know of a certainty that the people in every age, clinging to a verse of the Book, have uttered such vain and absurd sayings, contending that no Prophet should again be made manifest to the world. Even as the Christian divines who, holding fast to the verse of the Gospel to which We have already referred, have sought to explain that the law of the Gospel shall at no time be annulled, and that no independent Prophet shall again be made manifest, unless He confirmeth the law of the Gospel. Most of the people have become afflicted with the same spiritual disease.
237 Even as thou dost witness how the people of the Qur’án, like unto the people of old, have allowed the words “Seal of the Prophets” to veil their eyes.”

reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KI/ki-7.html

 

[tonyfish58]

christianity is for sinful human beings.

if a human being has not sinned, they have no need for Jesus.

if a human being has sinned, it is only throught the blood of Jesus Christ crucified that their sins can be forgiven.

no one but Jesus offers sinful men forgiveness of their sins and eternal salvation.

Eddie - The offer of forgiveness of Sins is only possible by the Manifestation of God, in the time of Christ it was Christ.

This passage of the Bab is interesting;

"Fear not, nor be Thou grieved, for indeed unto such as have responded to Thy Call, whether men or women, We have assured forgiveness of sins, as known in the presence of the Best Beloved and in conformity with what Thou desirest. Verily His knowledge embraceth all things. (The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 54)

These passages from Baha’u’llah are eye opening

“God hath forgiven what is past”. (Bahá’u’lláh, Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 219)

…"And whoso saith in ‘Akká: ‘I beg forgiveness of God,’ God will forgive all his trespasses … The Apostle of God—may the blessings of God and His salutations be upon Him—hath also said: “He that looketh upon the sea at eventide, and saith: ‘God is Most Great!’ at sunset, God will forgive his sins, though they be heaped as piles of sand. And he that counteth forty waves, while repeating: ‘God is Most Great!’—exalted be He—God will forgive his sins, both past and future.” (Bahá’u’lláh, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 179 - 181)

…“My sole duty is to remind you of your failure in duty towards the Cause of God, if perchance ye may be of them that heed My warning. Wherefore, hearken ye unto My speech, and return ye to God and repent, that He, through His grace, may have mercy upon you, may wash away your sins…” (Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 130)

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Eddie - The offer of forgiveness of Sins is only possible by the Manifestation of God, in the time of Christ it was Christ.

This passage of the Bab is interesting;

"Fear not, nor be Thou grieved, for indeed unto such as have responded to Thy Call, whether men or women, We have assured forgiveness of sins, as known in the presence of the Best Beloved and in conformity with what Thou desirest. Verily His knowledge embraceth all things. (The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 54)

These passages from Baha’u’llah are eye opening

“God hath forgiven what is past”. (Bahá’u’lláh, Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 219)

…"And whoso saith in ‘Akká: ‘I beg forgiveness of God,’ God will forgive all his trespasses … The Apostle of God—may the blessings of God and His salutations be upon Him—hath also said: “He that looketh upon the sea at eventide, and saith: ‘God is Most Great!’ at sunset, God will forgive his sins, though they be heaped as piles of sand. And he that counteth forty waves, while repeating: ‘God is Most Great!’—exalted be He—God will forgive his sins, both past and future.” (Bahá’u’lláh, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 179 - 181)

…“My sole duty is to remind you of your failure in duty towards the Cause of God, if perchance ye may be of them that heed My warning. Wherefore, hearken ye unto My speech, and return ye to God and repent, that He, through His grace, may have mercy upon you, may wash away your sins…” (Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 130)

God Bless and Regards Tony

Now that contradicts Hebrews does it not, when we are told Christ made a once and for all sacrifice?

Hebrews 10 8 First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them”—though they were offered in accordance with the law. 9 Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

So I guess it was not once and for all but rather for only 600 years till Muhammad somehow took on our sins.

 

[Servant19]

Now that contradicts Hebrews does it not, when we are told Christ made a once and for all sacrifice?

Hebrews 10 8 First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them”—though they were offered in accordance with the law. 9 Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

So I guess it was not once and for all but rather for only 600 years till Muhammad somehow took on our sins.

I actually read that passage in Hebrews to mean that once an individual is baptized in Jesus, He is forever cleansed of His sins.

Not that Jesus is the ONLY cleanser of sins forever and ever…

.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

I actually read that passage in Hebrews to mean that once an individual is baptized in Jesus, He is forever cleansed of His sins.

Not that Jesus is the ONLY cleanser of sins forever and ever…

.

Baptism is not mentioned at all in this particular part of the books of hebrews.

Hebrews 10 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2 Otherwise, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. 3 But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins. 4 It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

5 Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:

“Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you prepared for me;
6 with burnt offerings and sin offerings
you were not pleased.
7 Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll—
I have come to do your will, my God.’”[a]
8 First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them”—though they were offered in accordance with the law. 9 Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

15 The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:

16 “This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”**
17 Then he adds:

“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”[c]
18 And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary.

The contrast here is not involving baptism, but the previous hebrew system of sacrificial works as commanded by the law. The author argues that the Law could not save you from your sins by merely sacrificing an animal but rather that these things point towards the sacrifice of Jesus Christ which was once and for all. That the sacrifices perfomed in the temple again and again, year after year are not the true sacrifice, rather that it is Christ’s sacrifice once and for all. You cannot avoid what Hebrews says.**

 

[tonyfish58]

Now that contradicts Hebrews does it not, when we are told Christ made a once and for all sacrifice?

Hebrews 10 8 First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them”—though they were offered in accordance with the law. 9 Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

So I guess it was not once and for all but rather for only 600 years till Muhammad somehow took on our sins.

This will be an extremely over simplification of this subject, but I reply because it is an interesting subject to follow up on

These passages will always complex the mind if one is not looking for a oneness in all of Gods revealed Words.

This complexity has been removed by the Writings of Baha’u’llah.

It ties into the First and the Last, the Alpha and Omega and our perception and constraints of Time.

It is all the Prophets from the beginning that has no beginning to the end that has no end that can forgive our sins if we turn to God by the Word revealed by Them.

There is no difference in their Word, thus “Once an for All” appears in Every age God reveals Himself, it is the resurrection of them all and a renewal/reminder of that Word.

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

This will be an extremely over simplification of this subject, but I reply because it is an interesting subject to follow up on

These passages will always complex the mind if one is not looking for a oneness in all of Gods revealed Words.

This complexity has been removed by the Writings of Baha’u’llah.

It ties into the First and the Last, the Alpha and Omega and our perception and constraints of Time.

It is all the Prophets from the beginning that has no beginning to the end that has no end that can forgive our sins if we turn to God by the Word revealed by Them.

There is no difference in their Word, thus Once an for all appears in Every age God reveals Himself, the resurrection of them all and a renewal/reminder of that Word.

God Bless and Regards Tony

The passage in Hebrews is pretty clear that Christ’s sacrifice is unique and to prove this the author of Hebrews contrasts the sacrifice of Jesus which was once and for all to the never ending sacrifices of the temple cult in Jerusalem. He argues that it is through Christ’s sacrifice and not the sacrifice of countless animals that one has received forgiveness and salvation.

To say that this once and for all sacrifice happens in every age undercuts the author’s intent which is to show how Christ has saved us all. Moses did not die for us, Abraham did not die for us. Muhammad did not die for us and neither did Ali Hussein. You are inserting a message the original author did not intend but you as a bahai are forced to do this by faith and not by reason.

 

[Servant19]

This will be an extremely over simplification of this subject, but I reply because it is an interesting subject to follow up on

These passages will always complex the mind if one is not looking for a oneness in all of Gods revealed Words.

This complexity has been removed by the Writings of Baha’u’llah.

It ties into the First and the Last, the Alpha and Omega and our perception and constraints of Time.

It is all the Prophets from the beginning that has no beginning to the end that has no end that can forgive our sins if we turn to God by the Word revealed by Them.

There is no difference in their Word, thus “Once an for All” appears in Every age God reveals Himself, it is the resurrection of them all and a renewal/reminder of that Word.

God Bless and Regards Tony

I pray to Almighty God that ONE DAY (please Lord let that mighty day come quick) people will understand what you just posted here Tony…

…I’m off to pray for it again right now…

.