False Prophets the most used comeback!

[Servant19]

The passage in Hebrews is pretty clear that Christ’s sacrifice is unique and to prove this the author of Hebrews contrasts the sacrifice of Jesus which was once and for all to the never ending sacrifices of the temple cult in Jerusalem. He argues that it is through Christ’s sacrifice and not the sacrifice of countless animals that one has received forgiveness and salvation.

To say that this once and for all sacrifice happens in every age undercuts the author’s intent which is to show how Christ has saved us all. Moses did not die for us, Abraham did not die for us. Muhammad did not die for us and neither did Ali Hussein. You are inserting a message the original author did not intend but you as a bahai are forced to do this by faith and not by reason.

Why was the never ending sacrifices of the Temple no longer good enough?

.

 

[tonyfish58]

The passage in Hebrews is pretty clear that Christ’s sacrifice is unique and to prove this the author of Hebrews contrasts the sacrifice of Jesus which was once and for all to the never ending sacrifices of the temple cult in Jerusalem. He argues that it is through Christ’s sacrifice and not the sacrifice of countless animals that one has received forgiveness and salvation.

To say that this once and for all sacrifice happens in every age undercuts the author’s intent which is to show how Christ has saved us all. Moses did not die for us, Abraham did not die for us. Muhammad did not die for us and neither did Ali Hussein. You are inserting a message the original author did not intend but you as a bahai are forced to do this by faith and not by reason.

Please be advised that I insert no words to any Scripture I gain my understanding from what is revealed to man by God through His Manifestations.

That I have accepted the Word of God as Told by Baha’u’llah and this would be the same as you accepting Christ. Who is any one to say it is not done with Reason! Are we not glad that God is our ultimate Judge

I would be careful as to who I accused of not sacrificing all for Mankind

God Bless your Spiritual Journey - Regards Tony

 

[Servant19]

To say that this once and for all sacrifice happens in every age undercuts the author’s intent which is to show how Christ has saved us all. Moses did not die for us, Abraham did not die for us. Muhammad did not die for us and neither did Ali Hussein. You are inserting a message the original author did not intend but you as a bahai are forced to do this by faith and not by reason.

Some died, and some suffered a lifetime of torment and torture from the opposers of God…either way, IT IS A SACRIFICE…

Baha’u’llah had a lifetime of riches and kingly royalty awaiting Him, but His mission was one of SACRIFICE, not comfort…

.

 

[tonyfish58]

I pray to Almighty God that ONE DAY (please Lord let that mighty day come quick) people will understand what you just posted here Tony…

…I’m off to pray for it again right now…

.

Servant - I will join you - May Gods Love and Bounty fall upon all.

God Bless all

Regards Tony

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Please be advised that I insert no words to any Scripture I gain my understanding from what is revealed to man by God through His Manifestations.

That I have accepted the Word of God as Told by Baha’u’llah and this would be the same as you accepting Christ. Who is any one to say it is not done with Reason! Are we not glad that God is our ultimate Judge

I would be careful as to who I accused of not sacrificing all for Mankind

God Bless your Spiritual Journey - Regards Tony

I will judge by you completely ignoring Hebrews at this point that you cannot reconcile what Hebrews says, that in contrast to a system of never ending sacrifices we have one final and for all sacrifice by Jesus Christ. Thats simply how the text represents itself. To have the author of Hebrews believe in every age there will be a sacrifice totally destroys the essence of that epistle. In other words Bahai destroys the essence of the New testament, just like the gnostics did.

 

[tonyfish58]

Some died, and some suffered a lifetime of torment and torture from the opposers of God…either way, IT IS A SACRIFICE…

Baha’u’llah had a lifetime of riches and kingly royalty awaiting Him, but His mission was one of SACRIFICE, not comfort…

.

If only this aspect of Faith was fully investigated one would instantly see the Sacrifice of Muhammad the Bab and Baha’u’llah was that of what Christ did suffer.

In Fact Muhammad Suffered Years More and Baha’u’llah many Years More before they returned to Thier God.

The Bab Martyrdom in Fact Mirror Christs nearly event for event for the exact same Reasons! Truly remarkable.

God bless and Regards Tony

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Some died, and some suffered a lifetime of torment and torture from the opposers of God…either way, IT IS A SACRIFICE…

Baha’u’llah had a lifetime of riches and kingly royalty awaiting Him, but His mission was one of SACRIFICE, not comfort…

.

No, he was gunned down and is dead in the grave. His was not my atonement, my atonement was in Jesus Christ. This atonement I might add you bahai insist you believe in when it is convenient for you to insist you believe in this. Christ died that I might die to the law and there is not lacking in the sacrifice of Jesus which your prophet could fill, it is the perfect once and for all sacrifice that does not need repeating. You bahai will insist at other times that you believe salvations come through Jesus, but that is cheap words which mean nothing if you deny that Christ’s sacrifice was unique. You reject the epistle of the hebrews and nothing you say will heal that rejection. Thats simply the price of trying to reconcile a group of texts from various traditions and saying they are all correct. It cannot be done.

 

[tonyfish58]

I will judge by you completely ignoring Hebrews at this point that you cannot reconcile what Hebrews says, that in contrast to a system of never ending sacrifices we have one final and for all sacrifice by Jesus Christ. Thats simply how the text represents itself. To have the author of Hebrews believe in every age there will be a sacrifice totally destroys the essence of that epistle. In other words Bahai destroys the essence of the New testament, just like the gnostics did.

As I said I seen no issue, but I look at it differently

I like the closing passages of this Hebrews 10;

35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.

36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.

38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

This is the way I view this when looking with the One God in Mind.

To me this talks about us being confidence in receiving the Promise, that is recognizing the Return of Christ. That He that Shall Come Will Come! It also tells us not to Draw Back, if we do then the Saving from Sin may be withdrawn. But we are told/encouraged not to draw back to perdition, but to believe and thus continue to receive the Sacrifice for sin.

So it appears that the Saving of Sin is Conditional.

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

As I said I seen no issue, but I look at it differently

I like the closing passages of this Hebrews 10;

35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.

36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.

38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

This is the way I view this when looking with the One God in Mind.

To me this talks about us being confidence in receiving the Promise, that is recognizing the Return of Christ. That He that Shall Come Will Come! It also tells us not to Draw Back, if we do then the Saving from Sin may be withdrawn. But we are told/encouraged not to draw back to perdition, but to believe and thus continue to receive the Sacrifice for sin.

So it appears that the Saving of Sin is Conditional.

God Bless and Regards Tony

The latter does not negate the former and the themes within the entirety of the epistle are relevant all throughout it in our attempts to understand it. We have no indication the early Christian community was expecting another prophet rather they were awaiting the return of Christ himself to literally come back as we see in Luke-acts or Paul. Nothing of which you have said has rendered Christ’s unique sacrifice un-unique in this grand epistle.

 

[Servant19]

No, he was gunned down and is dead in the grave. His was not my atonement, my atonement was in Jesus Christ. This atonement I might add you bahai insist you believe in when it is convenient for you to insist you believe in this. Christ died that I might die to the law and there is not lacking in the sacrifice of Jesus which your prophet could fill, it is the perfect once and for all sacrifice that does not need repeating. You bahai will insist at other times that you believe salvations come through Jesus, but that is cheap words which mean nothing if you deny that Christ’s sacrifice was unique. You reject the epistle of the hebrews and nothing you say will heal that rejection. Thats simply the price of trying to reconcile a group of texts from various traditions and saying they are all correct. It cannot be done.

Can you tell me why Jesus’ sacrifice was unique and the Bab’s sacrifice was not please?

.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Can you tell me why Jesus’ sacrifice was unique and the Bab’s sacrifice was not please?

.

Because it was once and for all, it was the ultimate reason Christ was sent down, to redeem Humanity. Your prophet was not sent down to redeem us from our sins, but as you have said elsewhere, his primary purpose was to introduce the perfect world order, the perfect government. Its as Hebrews says, Jesus’s sacrifice was once and for all. It will not be repeated like the sacrifices of the temple, it cannot be or it could not be once and for all.

 

[Servant19]

Because it was once and for all, it was the ultimate reason Christ was sent down, to redeem Humanity. Your prophet was not sent down to redeem us from our sins…

You obviously did not read Tony’s post above:

Eddie - The offer of forgiveness of Sins is only possible by the Manifestation of God, in the time of Christ it was Christ.

This passage of the Bab is interesting;

"Fear not, nor be Thou grieved, for indeed unto such as have responded to Thy Call, whether men or women, We have assured forgiveness of sins, as known in the presence of the Best Beloved and in conformity with what Thou desirest. Verily His knowledge embraceth all things. (The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 54)

These passages from Baha’u’llah are eye opening

“God hath forgiven what is past”. (Bahá’u’lláh, Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 219)

…"And whoso saith in ‘Akká: ‘I beg forgiveness of God,’ God will forgive all his trespasses … The Apostle of God—may the blessings of God and His salutations be upon Him—hath also said: “He that looketh upon the sea at eventide, and saith: ‘God is Most Great!’ at sunset, God will forgive his sins, though they be heaped as piles of sand. And he that counteth forty waves, while repeating: ‘God is Most Great!’—exalted be He—God will forgive his sins, both past and future.” (Bahá’u’lláh, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 179 - 181)

…“My sole duty is to remind you of your failure in duty towards the Cause of God, if perchance ye may be of them that heed My warning. Wherefore, hearken ye unto My speech, and return ye to God and repent, that He, through His grace, may have mercy upon you, may wash away your sins…” (Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 130)

God Bless and Regards Tony

Secondly, I asked you why the Temple offerings were no longer good enough?

Can you answer this please?

.

 

[MartinJordan]

I believe that Jesus is the Christ…

The Jesus of your own imagination. Learn the Faith please.

I love the parent AND the child. Ask me to recant my faith in Jesus or die, I choose death…

It is your choice to be misguided.

This is exactly why I started this thread here:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=865136

So I can ensure that there is not one commandment of Jesus that I am not following.

I follow all of Jesus’ commandments to an extreme level. His commandments have been fulfilled to the highest heavens the moment I fell in love with Baha’u’llah’s teachings…

Why are you denying me this love?

It is You who are denying the Love of Christ. He died for you.

I will not stoop to the level of belief that says that Christ’s Truth denies Zoroaster’s Truth. (or the Truth of any of the Messengers of God)

You don’t speak for Zorastrians. Like you don’t speak for Muslims. Who’s stooping low? You don’t speak for Catholics and tell us how to worship.

MJ

 

[Servant19]

It is You who are denying the Love of Christ. He died for you.

How am I denying Christ?

You don’t speak for Zorastrians. Like you don’t speak for Muslims. Who’s stooping low? You don’t speak for Catholics and tell us how to worship.

MJ

When have I spoken “FOR” other religions? When have I told Catholics how to worship?

I present a perspective. If truth was so clear cut, you would not be here discussing it, and neither would there be majority of the world non-Catholic, so please… I respect your opinion, without sarcasm, please afford me the same without resorting to the “rolls eyes” button whenever you can …

Spoken with love and respect

.

 

[MartinJordan]

How am I denying Christ?

.
You deny him as God. The Alpha and Omega. The Name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth. Now and forever. No mind bending and numbing manifestations and things of that sort. There is only one Master Lord
of all.

When have I spoken “FOR” other religions? When have I told Catholics how to worship?

I present a perspective. If truth was so clear cut, you would not be here discussing it, and neither would there be majority of the world non-Catholic, so please… I respect your opinion, without sarcasm, please afford me the same without resorting to the “rolls eyes” button whenever you can …

Spoken with love and respect

Truth is one. One Truth. Truth is clear. No other prophet, priest, King.

Perspective? Thats not Theology.

MJ

 

[eddie_too]

a very important fact to know for anyone discussing Jesus Christ and christianity is that Jesus came to save us from our sins. that was the primary reason God became man.

ergo, christianity is for sinners. if a person is without sin, he or she needs neither Jesus nor His Church.

the sins of christians are forgiven them through the blood of Jesus Christ.

this is the only way we know of by which our sins are forgiven. ONLY through the blood of Jesus Christ are human beings made right with their Creator.

so if you are without sin, you have no need to know, or love, or serve Jesus Christ.

if you are with sin, only through faith in Jesus Christ can your sins be forgiven.

all sinners out there, i urge you to believe in Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven and your chains of slavery to sin may be broken.

if you all want to discuss the details related to Jesus being the Savior of the World, please continue. however, i doubt sinners and those who have no need of forgiveness will find much in common to discuss since the essence of the Incarnation is the forgiveness of sins.

 

[tonyfish58]

a very important fact to know for anyone discussing Jesus Christ and christianity is that Jesus came to save us from our sins. that was the primary reason God became man.

ergo, christianity is for sinners. if a person is without sin, he or she needs neither Jesus nor His Church.

the sins of christians are forgiven them through the blood of Jesus Christ.

this is the only way we know of by which our sins are forgiven. ONLY through the blood of Jesus Christ are human beings made right with their Creator.

so if you are without sin, you have no need to know, or love, or serve Jesus Christ.

if you are with sin, only through faith in Jesus Christ can your sins be forgiven.

all sinners out there, i urge you to believe in Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven and your chains of slavery to sin may be broken.

if you all want to discuss the details related to Jesus being the Savior of the World, please continue. however, i doubt sinners and those who have no need of forgiveness will find much in common to discuss since the essence of the Incarnation is the forgiveness of sins.

Dear eddie - Did you read my post to you above

We are all sinners dear friend and all the Prophets are here to Take us away from/save us from Sin

Here are some examples

**I beg Thy forgiveness, O my God, and implore pardon after the manner Thou wishest Thy servants to direct themselves to Thee. I beg of Thee to wash away our sins as befitteth Thy Lordship, and to forgive me, my parents, and those who in Thy estimation have entered the abode of Thy love in a manner which is worthy of Thy transcendent sovereignty and well beseemeth the glory of Thy celestial power.

O my God! Thou hast inspired my soul to offer its supplication to Thee, and but for Thee, I would not call upon Thee. Lauded and glorified art Thou; I yield Thee praise inasmuch as Thou didst reveal Thyself unto me, and I beg Thee to forgive me, since I have fallen short in my duty to know Thee and have failed to walk in the path of Thy love.** The Báb

**O Lord! Thou seest this essence of sinfulness turning unto the ocean of Thy favour and this feeble one seeking the kingdom of Thy divine power and this poor creature inclining himself towards the day-star of Thy wealth.

By Thy mercy and Thy grace, disappoint him not, O Lord, nor debar him from the revelations of Thy bounty in Thy days, nor cast him away from Thy door which Thou hast opened wide to all that dwell in Thy heaven and on Thine earth.

Alas! Alas! My sins have prevented me from approaching the Court of Thy holiness and my trespasses have caused me to stray far from the Tabernacle of Thy majesty.

I have committed that which Thou didst forbid me to do and have put away what Thou didst ordain me to observe. I pray Thee by Him Who is the sovereign Lord of Names to write down for me with the Pen of Thy bounty that which will enable me to draw nigh unto Thee and will purge me from my trespasses which have intervened between me and Thy forgiveness and Thy pardon.

Verily, Thou art the Potent, the Bountiful. No God is there but Thee, the Mighty, the Gracious**. -Bahá’u’lláh

There are 100’s more re Sin and Forgivness

May God forgive all our shortcomings to which we have many - In Christs Name - Amen

God Bless and regards Tony

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

You obviously did not read Tony’s post above:

Secondly, I asked you why the Temple offerings were no longer good enough?

Can you answer this please?

.

Actually asked why is Christ’s sacrifice unique. Secondly it is the view of Hebrews that the animal sacrifices were never good enough. You may reject that, and that okay, but in doing so you reject the new testament.

 

[tonyfish58]

Actually asked why is Christ’s sacrifice unique. Secondly it is the view of Hebrews that the animal sacrifices were never good enough. You may reject that, and that okay, but in doing so you reject the new testament.

IgnatianPhilo - Consider we look at the subject as Progressive Revelation and God in each age revealing more of the Truth to which to date we had not understood. It was not because the meaning was not available, it was because we did/have not the capacity to understand it at this/that time.

Think of the Letters B & E - How much untold wisdom and amazement is still contained within those letters that we have no chance of understanding?

Thus God brings Further meaning to the Word Sacrifice as mankind becomes more aware Spiritually - At One time Sacrifice was on the Animal Level, but with Christ God brought Sacrifice to a Higher Level, A personal connection between the Believer, Christ and God.

If you Look at the Koran and then the Baha’i Writings you will see a progressive unfolding of as to What is this Significance of this Sacrifice!

I will leave that up to you to research and ponder

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[Servant19]

.
You deny him as God. The Alpha and Omega. The Name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth. Now and forever. No mind bending and numbing manifestations and things of that sort. There is only one Master Lord
of all.

Dear Martin,

Please take a few moments to ponder the following theological statements.

1. Jesus was born to Mary.
2. Jesus was born as a human being, and therefore, on earth, at least He had a definite beginning
3. If He had a definite beginning on earth, when you say “He was the Alpha and the Omega”, it is not referring to the earthly Jesus, because Alpha implies “no beginning”
4. If it is not related to an earthly condition then it must refer to a “spiritual condition”
5. But we know, and it is well documented in Catholicism that the soul comes into existence at conception.
6. One can therefore conclude that the “Alpha and the Omega” does not refer to the soul of Jesus either.
7. Does Jesus have another aspect to His nature which is the “Alpha and the Omega”?

YES!!

I worship and do not deny THAT Divine aspect of Jesus.

Did that Divine aspect reveal Himself to Moses in the Burning Bush? Yes.

Did that Divine aspect reveal Himself to Lord Krsna (and others)? Yes

So it is evident that the Divine aspect CAN and DOES reveal Himself as other human forms, and human Temples.

Sooooooo, where does that leave you in terms of the logic of this theology? Please share your thoughts

Truth is one. One Truth. Truth is clear. No other prophet, priest, King.

So you are limiting the “Alpha and the Omega” aspect?

Perspective? Thats not Theology.

MJ

I present a perspective from a rationally complete theology. All theologies are a perspective of reality, they are not an empirically testable science…

.