False Prophets the most used comeback!

[IgnatianPhilo]

IgnatianPhilo - Consider we look at the subject as Progressive Revelation and God in each age revealing more of the Truth to which to date we had not understood. It was not because the meaning was not available, it was because we did/have not the capacity to understand it at this/that time.

Think of the Letters B & E - How much untold wisdom and amazement is still contained within those letters that we have no chance of understanding?

Thus God brings Further meaning to the Word Sacrifice as mankind becomes more aware Spiritually - At One time Sacrifice was on the Animal Level, but with Christ God brought Sacrifice to a Higher Level, A personal connection between the Believer, Christ and God.

If you Look at the Koran and then the Baha’i Writings you will see a progressive unfolding of as to What is this Significance of this Sacrifice!

I will leave that up to you to research and ponder

God Bless and Regards Tony

The problem is your so called progressive revelation destroys the previous revelation. What part about once and for all do you find so offensive? You bahai have admitted openly before that your prophet came mainly to institute a one world order, one world government, one universal language and etc, not to forgive the sins of people which was done by Jesus. The point of Hebrews, which you ultimately reject because you believe Christ did not need to die for our sins, is that Christ is the fulfillment of the entire law. You bahai reject that, but know in doing so you cannot claim loyalty to the new testament.

 

[Techno2000]

Dear Martin,

Please take a few moments to ponder the following theological statements.

1. Jesus was born to Mary.
2. Jesus was born as a human being, and therefore, on earth, at least He had a definite beginning
3. If He had a definite beginning on earth, when you say “He was the Alpha and the Omega”, it is not referring to the earthly Jesus, because Alpha implies “no beginning”
4. If it is not related to an earthly condition then it must refer to a “spiritual condition”
5. But we know, and it is well documented in Catholicism that the soul comes into existence at conception.
6. One can therefore conclude that the “Alpha and the Omega” does not refer to the soul of Jesus either.
7. Does Jesus have another aspect to His nature which is the “Alpha and the Omega”?

YES!!

I worship and do not deny THAT Divine aspect of Jesus.

Did that Divine aspect reveal Himself to Moses in the Burning Bush? Yes.

Did that Divine aspect reveal Himself to Lord Krsna (and others)? Yes

So it is evident that the Divine aspect CAN and DOES reveal Himself as other human forms, and human Temples.

Sooooooo, where does that leave you in terms of the logic of this theology? Please share your thoughts

So you are limiting the “Alpha and the Omega” aspect?

I present a perspective from a rationally complete theology. All theologies are a perspective of reality, they are not an empirically testable science…

.

The Nicene Creed

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
Maker of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial
of one Being with the Father.

Through him all things were made.

For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.

For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.

On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.

With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified.

He has spoken through the Prophets.

We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.

We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

 

[MartinJordan]

Dear Martin,

Please take a few moments to ponder the following theological statements.

1. Jesus was born to Mary.

Jesus is both God and Man - Divine Nature (True God **from **True God ) and Man - Human Nature (born of the Holiest of Woman) The fruit of her womb. And it is wonderful in my eyes. :extrahappy:

If you disregard that the Holy Spirit shrouded Mary for the conception (it’s beautiful btw:harp, then it will be just Jesus born to Mary by questionable methods eek. So this part (1.) isn’t adequate Theology.

1. Jesus was born as a human being, and therefore, on earth, at least He had a definite beginning

Wrong. This is like JW “theology”. Learn the Catholic 2000 years old one. Plus it disregards. John chapter 1.

1. If He had a definite beginning on earth, when you say “He was the Alpha and the Omega”, it is not referring to the earthly Jesus, because Alpha implies “no beginning”

This disregards for instance the Book of Revelation.

1. If it is not related to an earthly condition then it must refer to a “spiritual condition”
2. But we know, and it is well documented in Catholicism that the soul comes into existence at conception.
3. One can therefore conclude that the “Alpha and the Omega” does not refer to the soul of Jesus either.

See above about the book of Revelation.

1. Does Jesus have another aspect to His nature which is the “Alpha and the Omega”?

YES!!

Jesus is both God and Man but remember he had to go back to the Father, otherwise he wouldn’t send the Holy Spirit (who is God) telling him all that Christ wants to convey to His Church.

I worship and do not deny THAT Divine aspect of Jesus.

Did that Divine aspect reveal Himself to Moses in the Burning Bush? Yes.

Did that Divine aspect reveal Himself to Lord Krsna (and others)? Yes

I was with you a little with Moses (but it isn’t accurate per say). Lord Krishna? Better talk to a Hindu about that.

So it is evident that the Divine aspect CAN and DOES reveal Himself as other human forms, and human Temples.

We are the temple of the Holy Spirit. That means Christ sends Him to us (as he first breathed the Holy Spirit to the Apostles) and we are guided by the present Apostles the Pope and the Bishops. Any so called prophet who do not defend the Apostolic tradion are false.

Sooooooo, where does that leave you in terms of the logic of this theology? Please share your thoughts

I’m presently worshipping God in Spirit and in Truth also by going for regular Mass and receiving of the Eucharist. The Church nurtures me also this wondeful season of Lent!

So you are limiting the “Alpha and the Omega” aspect?

Definitely not. The Church guides me and teaches the Full truth about the Alpha and The Omega.

I present a perspective from a rationally complete theology. All theologies are a perspective of reality, they are not an empirically testable science…

.

Where do I start? This cannot compare with the mind of God. And we are assured that His Holy Spirit guides the Church. With the Full truth (Pope Francis can attest)

MJ

 

[Servant19]

Two questions Martin

1. What does the word “born” mean in Catholicism?
2. Why did Jesus have to go away (and send the Holy Spirit)?
   Why not stick around and guide the Church in person?

Thanks for your consideration

.

 

[Servant19]

Hey Martin, you deleted your post!!???

(Makes my post above seem like a mind reading endeavour lol)

Anyway…the questions still stand

.

 

[Servant19]

The Nicene Creed

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
Maker of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial
of one Being with the Father.

Through him all things were made.

For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.

For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.

On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.

With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified.

He has spoken through the Prophets.

We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.

We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Why does the Nicene Creed not call Jesus the maker of all things and the maker of all that is, seen and unseen?

I thought Catholics believed it was Jesus who made all things, not the Father…

.

 

[Servant19]

The problem is your so called progressive revelation destroys the previous revelation. What part about once and for all do you find so offensive? You bahai have admitted openly before that your prophet came mainly to institute a one world order, one world government, one universal language and etc, not to forgive the sins of people which was done by Jesus. The point of Hebrews, which you ultimately reject because you believe Christ did not need to die for our sins, is that Christ is the fulfillment of the entire law. You bahai reject that, but know in doing so you cannot claim loyalty to the new testament.

No Baha’is say that Jesus did forgive the sins of man, but not the physical Jesus, the Divine Jesus. The Divine Jesus IS ONE AND THE SAME AS the Divine Baha’u’llah.

Secondly, if we study the Letters of Paul correctly and fully, we will see that the start of Jesus was the END OF TORAH…

So ask yourself, did Jesus destroy the previous Revelation?
Do you live by ANY part of Mosaic Law today?

Galatians 5: 2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

.

 

[Techno2000]

Why does the Nicene Creed not call Jesus the maker of all things and the maker of all that is, seen and unseen?

I thought Catholics believed it was Jesus who made all things, not the Father…

.

Through him all things were made

 

[Servant19]

Through him all things were made

Through who?

Jesus or the Father?

.

 

[MartinJordan]

Hey Martin, you deleted your post!!???

(Makes my post above seem like a mind reading endeavour lol)

Anyway…the questions still stand

.

Yes. I did.

I wanted to add more stuff but thought the better of it. Im rather tired and more focused on Lent actually. A prayer life supercedes CAF

 

[Servant19]

Yes. I did.

I wanted to add more stuff but thought the better of it. Im rather tired and more focused on Lent actually. A prayer life supercedes CAF

I agree

I hope it’s a fruitful and spiritually invigorating Lent for you

.

 

[tonyfish58]

The problem is your so called progressive revelation destroys the previous revelation. What part about once and for all do you find so offensive? You bahai have admitted openly before that your prophet came mainly to institute a one world order, one world government, one universal language and etc, not to forgive the sins of people which was done by Jesus. The point of Hebrews, which you ultimately reject because you believe Christ did not need to die for our sins, is that Christ is the fulfillment of the entire law. You bahai reject that, but know in doing so you cannot claim loyalty to the new testament.

IgnatianPhilo - You spend a fair bit of time telling the Baha’is what they reject when we have not offered that rejection and will not Please note;

“progressive revelation destroys the previous revelation” - Did Christianity Destroy the Prophets of the Old Testament or was the Word Fulfill a better use and understanding

Once and for all is not Offensive at all! - One can look for another way of looking at it or stay with what you believe, your choice. In each age God reveals Himself as he Wishes, He then explains the misunderstandings of Previous Revelations. The explanation re these verses are available to all that wish too look.

Not one thing is rejected in the Bible - Baha’u’llah as promised Has Glorified Christ, the Bible and Guided Mankind Unto All Truth. He has given the promised Keys of Understanding that was and mostly still is not current amongst men.

A simple Bible example of new understanding Given by the New Prophet is this;

Matthew 5:38 & 39 "You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also

Sin - Did you not read the Prayers posted Above, they are self explanatory.

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[eddie_too]

what prophets before Jesus freed us from our sins?

after Jesus, the issue is moot because Jesus had already granted us the forgiveness of our sins. no need for some future prophet to pretend to do the same.

so, for now, just explain what prophet before Jesus freed us from our sins.

also, you could explain why it was necessary for Jesus to free us from our sins if someone else had already done so.

if the bahai believe all humans sin, then they have no excuse for not seeking the forgiveness of those sins through the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

those who do not accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior do not have their sins forgiven.

 

[Servant19]

what prophets before Jesus freed us from our sins?

Just because a Prophet did not address a specific area of reality does not mean that He was unable to do it.

Christ never addressed the existence of life on other planets, does that mean He didn’t know? Of course He did. Christ never said that the earth was not flat, does that mean He didn’t know? Of course He did

Just because a specify theology is not addressed does not indicate a “lacking” in any way by a Prophet. Each Prophet had a specific Mission assigned to them by God.

Jesus did not address how to ensure the unification of mankind. Did He not have the knowledge to impart the secret to this paradigm? Of course He did, but it was not His mission to do so…

after Jesus, the issue is moot because Jesus had already granted us the forgiveness of our sins. no need for some future prophet to pretend to do the same.

Again, that was Jesus’ primary role and Mission.

All other Prophets after Jesus, fulfilled further the commandments of Jesus on the foundations that He laid. Forgiveness of sin is a given from Muhammad, the Bab, and Baha’u’llah, but they go much much further than that.

so, for now, just explain what prophet before Jesus freed us from our sins.

Not sure, but are you saying that all people who died before Jesus went straight to hell?

What kind of God is that?

I’m not God, but I think I can forgive someone who sinned against me better than the God that does not forgive sins for hundreds of thousands of years before Jesus.

THAT, in and of itself should be enough for you, as an intelligent and rational human being, with a God-given ability to reason, to at the very least question this mindset and theology.

also, you could explain why it was necessary for Jesus to free us from our sins if someone else had already done so.

Jesus forgives your sin because through your faith in Him you are obliged to show deeds which are worthy of that Faith.

Faith without deeds is not going to get you in heaven as attested in Matthew 7:21.

The deeds necessary for salvation change with the faith in each subsequent Messenger of God. These deeds contribute more and more towards the bringing about of the Kingdom of God on earth.

if the bahai believe all humans sin, then they have no excuse for not seeking the forgiveness of those sins through the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

Again, the Mission of Baha’u’llah on a BASIC level is to forgive the sins of all, but it goes much much deeper than that.

those who do not accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior do not have their sins forgiven.

I think I responded to this in the beginning of this post. Please read the prayers that tonyfish58 posted earlier. It is clear and evident that the forgiveness of sin is not exclusive to Jesus, it is the arena of the Father…

.

 

[Techno2000]

Through who?

Jesus or the Father?

.

Jesus

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial
of one Being with the Father.

Through him all things were made.

 

[daler]

“progressive revelation destroys the previous revelation” - Did Christianity Destroy the Prophets of the Old Testament or was the Word Fulfill a better use and understanding

I think this is someone’s quote you are quoting here, as the Baha’i Faith doesn’t destroy anything sent by God in previous dispensations. In my mind I picture how a rose continually unfolds new petals, releasing a fresh dose of fragrant perfume with each petal, and revealing a natural beauty with every new one.

The rose does not unfold all of its petals at once, but gradually over time. It is the same rose, but different petals, as though a fountain is continually flowing through it, never stagnant, and always pure and fresh.

So this is how I would view the unfoldment of the Prophets of God’s Revelation to mankind. There is a garden, for those who choose to enter it. Some pass it by. Some view it from afar, but keep walking. Some enter the garden and inhale the perfume and witness the beauty of the flowers, and then leave.

There are always a few, however, who are so intoxicated by the fragrance of the perfume and overcome by the beauty of the flowers that they stay and forever tend the garden.

“O Ye Dwellers in the All-Highest Paradise!
Proclaim unto the children of assurance that within the realms of holiness, nigh unto the celestial paradise, a new garden hath appeared, round which circle the denizens of the realm on high and the immortal dwellers of the exalted paradise. Strive, then, that ye may attain that station, that ye may unravel the mysteries of love from its wind-flowers and learn the secret of divine and consummate wisdom from its eternal fruits. Solaced are the eyes of them that enter and abide therein!”

from the Hidden Words of Baha’u’llah, #18
.

 

[tonyfish58]

I think this is someone’s quote you are quoting here.

Dale - Yes - This is the thoughts of “IgnatianPhilo”.

I like this from the Kitab-i-iqan - The parts I have colored are how to determine a True prophet.

"…It is evident that the changes brought about in every Dispensation constitute the dark clouds that intervene between the eye of man’s understanding and the divine Luminary which shineth forth from the dayspring of the divine Essence. Consider how men for generations have been blindly imitating their fathers, and have been trained according to such ways and manners as have been laid down by the dictates of their Faith. Were these men, therefore, to discover suddenly that a Man, Who hath been living in their midst, Who, with respect to every human limitation, hath been their equal, had risen to abolish every established principle imposed by their Faith—principles by which for centuries they have been disciplined, and every opposer and denier of which they have come to regard as infidel, profligate and wicked,—they would of a certainty be veiled and hindered from acknowledging His truth. Such things are as “clouds” that veil the eyes of those whose inner being hath not tasted the Salsabíl of detachment, nor drunk from the Kawthar of the knowledge of God. Such men, when acquainted with these circumstances, become so veiled that without the least question, they pronounce the Manifestation of God an infidel, and sentence Him to death. You must have heard of such things taking place all down the ages, and are now observing them in these days.

It behooveth us, therefore, to make the utmost endeavour, that, by God’s invisible assistance, these dark veils, these clouds of Heaven-sent trials, may not hinder us from beholding the beauty of His shining Countenance, and that we may recognize Him only by His own Self. And should we ask for a testimony of His truth, we should content ourselves with one, and only one; that thereby we may attain unto Him Who is the Fountain-head of infinite grace, and in Whose presence all the world’s abundance fadeth into nothingness, that we may cease to cavil at Him every day and to cleave unto our own idle fancy".

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

IgnatianPhilo - You spend a fair bit of time telling the Baha’is what they reject when we have not offered that rejection and will not Please note;

“progressive revelation destroys the previous revelation” - Did Christianity Destroy the Prophets of the Old Testament or was the Word Fulfill a better use and understanding

Once and for all is not Offensive at all! - One can look for another way of looking at it or stay with what you believe, your choice. In each age God reveals Himself as he Wishes, He then explains the misunderstandings of Previous Revelations. The explanation re these verses are available to all that wish too look.

Not one thing is rejected in the Bible - Baha’u’llah as promised Has Glorified Christ, the Bible and Guided Mankind Unto All Truth. He has given the promised Keys of Understanding that was and mostly still is not current amongst men.

A simple Bible example of new understanding Given by the New Prophet is this;

Matthew 5:38 & 39 "You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also

Sin - Did you not read the Prayers posted Above, they are self explanatory.

God Bless and Regards Tony

Here’s the problem in using the analogy between Jesus and the Jews, you don’t try to demonstrate it. You don’t try to demonstrate how your interpretation of the New testament is correct and doesn’t contradict the writings of Bahai. Its just a claim as far as I’m concerned on your part, which you do little to buttress.

But yes in reality you do destroy the previous revelation. Bahai have said that every manifestation is sacrificed for their sins. Well that contradicts Hebrews and the uniqueness of the cross of Christ. In him we have our salvation, you reject this. Yes in the New testament there is a new covenant, yes we are no longer bound to the law which cannot be fulfilled but rather to grace in Christ Jesus but is that a contradiction between the Old and New? God said he would make a new covenant not like the one he made with the children of israel and Christians believe that was the covenant of Christ.

We were given a commission, baptise in the name of the father and the son and wait for the son to return. That this return will mark the end of the world, that there has been a clear Christian understanding concerning this since the first century and now we are supposed to give that up in favour of bahai who tell us the faith has been corrupted? That each generation has introduced error? You tell me first where the error of Christendom lay in the second century, then we can begin to talk.

 

[daler]

But yes in reality you do destroy the previous revelation.

Iggy,
For all the time you spend here toying with souls in an attempt to push a round peg in a square hole, have you ever done an objective, unbiased read of the Kitab-i-Iqan? All the answers you seek are contained within that one book, which unseals the meaning of that which has been sealed to men’s eyes, according to the very Prophets who recorded the visions which they themselves could not understand, nor would anyone be able to decode them until the promised Messenger arrived.

. "This is the purpose underlying the symbolic words of the Manifestations of God. Consequently, the application of the terms “sun” and “moon” to the things already mentioned hath been demonstrated and justified by the text of the sacred verses and the recorded traditions. Hence, it is clear and manifest that by the words “the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven” is intended the waywardness of the divines, and the annulment of laws firmly established by divine Revelation, all of which, in symbolic language, have been foreshadowed by the Manifestation of God. None except the righteous shall partake of this cup, none but the godly can share therein. “The righteous shall drink of a cup tempered at the camphor fountain.”

. It is unquestionable that in every succeeding Revelation the “sun” and “moon” of the teachings, laws, commandments, and prohibitions which have been established in the preceding Dispensation, and which have overshadowed the people of that age, become darkened, that is, are exhausted, and cease to exert their influence. Consider now, had the people of the Gospel recognized the meaning of the symbolic terms “sun” and “moon,” had they sought, unlike the froward and perverse, enlightenment from Him Who is the Revealer of divine knowledge, they would have surely comprehended the purpose of these terms, and would not have become afflicted and oppressed by the darkness of their selfish desires. Yea, but since they have failed to acquire true knowledge from its very Source, they have perished in the perilous vale of waywardness and misbelief. They still have not awakened to perceive that all the signs foretold have been made manifest, that the promised Sun hath risen above the horizon of divine Revelation, and that the “sun” and “moon” of the teachings, the laws, and learning of a former Dispensation have darkened and set.

. And now, with fixed gaze and steady wings enter thou the way of certitude and truth. “Say: It is God; then leave them to entertain themselves with their cavilings.”

from the Kitab-i-Iqan

reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KI/ki-2.html

 

[Servant19]

Jesus

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial
of one Being with the Father.

Through him all things were made.

Well this contradicts this from the Nicene Creed:

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
Maker of all that is, seen and unseen.

So was it the Father or the Son who created all things?

…