False Prophets the most used comeback!

[Servant19]

TWO Astounding (Miraculous?) Photographs Taken at the same Eucharistic Adoration Chapel qmbarque.com/2013/11/19/an-astounding-miraculous-photograph-taken-during-eucharistic-adoration/

Thankyou Techno…God bless your journey in Christ

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[Techno2000]

Thankyou Techno…God bless your journey in Christ

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What do you think about this:therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html

 

[Servant19]

What do you think about this:therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html

I don’t trust anyone making a claim that breaks all the laws of science from halfway across the world

I didn’t see it with my own eyes, nor am I allowed to conduct my own tests on the specimen in question.

I live a miracle every day of my life watching the stupendous showerings of grace Baha’u’llah has blessed my soul with. I don’t need to see floating people, flying objects or crying statues to confirm my spirit.

Why do you think, as you quoted, that the flesh profits nothing?

It’s all about spirit…



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[Techno2000]

I don’t trust anyone making a claim that breaks all the laws of science from halfway across the world

I didn’t see it with my own eyes, nor am I allowed to conduct my own tests on the specimen in question.

I live a miracle every day of my life watching the stupendous showerings of grace Baha’u’llah has blessed my soul with. I don’t need to see floating people, flying objects or crying statues to confirm my spirit.

Why do you think, as you quoted, that the flesh profits nothing?

It’s all about spirit…



.

Right and you can’t understand these things using human reasoning .

 

[Servant19]

Right and you can’t understand these things using human reasoning .

No my friend, give me that specimen that you linked me to and I will give you a books worth of human reasoning

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[Techno2000]

There are many paths to God, but the Virgin Mary is a short cut.

 

[Vouthon]

This Divine Nature is NOT the soul of Christ, the soul of Christ simply “manifested” PERFECTLY the Godly attributes of this Divine Nature
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Partially right :dancing:

The “Divine Nature” is in reference to the Person of the Son of God who assumed a human nature, including a human soul, during the Incarnation. It is a doctrine of the Catholic Faith that the two natures of Christ do not “mix”. He is fully human and fully divine, not a combo of both or a broth in which the two are in a melange together.

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p122a3p1.htm#470

II. THE INCARNATION

461 Taking up St. John’s expression, “The Word became flesh”,82 the Church calls “Incarnation” the fact that the Son of God assumed a human nature in order to accomplish our salvation in it. In a hymn cited by St. Paul, the Church sings the mystery of the Incarnation…

III. TRUE GOD AND TRUE MAN

464 The unique and altogether singular event of the Incarnation of the Son of God does not mean that Jesus Christ is part God and part man, nor does it imply that he is the result of a confused mixture of the divine and the human. He became truly man while remaining truly God. Jesus Christ is true God and true man.

During the first centuries, the Church had to defend and clarify this truth of faith against the heresies that falsified it…

IV. HOW IS THE SON OF GOD MAN?

470 Because “human nature was assumed, not absorbed”,97 in the mysterious union of the Incarnation, the Church was led over the course of centuries to confess the full reality of Christ’s human soul, with its operations of intellect and will, and of his human body. In parallel fashion, she had to recall on each occasion that Christ’s human nature belongs, as his own, to the divine person of the Son of God, who assumed it. Everything that Christ is and does in this nature derives from “one of the Trinity”. The Son of God therefore communicates to his humanity his own personal mode of existence in the Trinity. In his soul as in his body, Christ thus expresses humanly the divine ways of the Trinity:98

The Son of God. . . worked with human hands; he thought with a human mind. He acted with a human will, and with a human heart he loved. Born of the Virgin Mary, he has truly been made one of us, like to us in all things except sin.99

Christ’s soul and his human knowledge

472 **This human soul that the Son of God assumed is endowed with a true human knowledge. As such, this knowledge could not in itself be unlimited: it was exercised in the historical conditions of his existence in space and time. This is why the Son of God could, when he became man, “increase in wisdom and in stature, and in favor with God and man”,**101 and would even have to inquire for himself about what one in the human condition can learn only from experience.102 This corresponded to the reality of his voluntary emptying of himself, taking “the form of a slave”.103

473 But at the same time, this truly human knowledge of God’s Son expressed the divine life of his person.104 "The human nature of God’s Son, not by itself but by its union with the Word, knew and showed forth in itself everything that pertains to God."105 Such is first of all the case with the intimate and immediate knowledge that the Son of God made man has of his Father.106 The Son in his human knowledge also showed the divine penetration he had into the secret thoughts of human hearts.107

474 By its union to the divine wisdom in the person of the Word incarnate, Christ enjoyed in his human knowledge the fullness of understanding of the eternal plans he had come to reveal.108 What he admitted to not knowing in this area, he elsewhere declared himself not sent to reveal.109

This is important because of our other doctrine of divine impassibility. God does not have emotions. Emotions are a result of changeableness.

The Son of God is the Person of Jesus who unites the divine and human natures in one being. It is Christ in His Human Nature and human soul who experienced emotions. Not in His Divine Nature.

God does not experience sorrow or pain according to the Fathers and scholastics. He cannot “suffer”, that is part of what the doctrine of impassibility entails.

The Church Fathers explained this quite clearly:

St. John of Damascus (c. 645 - c. 749)

The Word of God then itself endured all in the flesh, while His divine nature which alone was passionless remained void of passion. For since the one Christ, Who is a compound of divinity and humanity, and exists in divinity and humanity, truly suffered, that part which is capable of passion suffered as it was natural it should, but that part which was void of passion did not share in the suffering. For the soul, indeed, since it is capable of passion shares in the pain and suffering of a bodily cut, though it is not cut itself but only the body: but the divine part which is void of passion does not share in the suffering of the body.

(An Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith, 26; in NPNF 2, Vol. 9)

St. Hippolytus (d. c. 236)

For the divine is just the same after the incarnation that it was before the incarnation; in its essence infinite, illimitable impassible, incomparable, unchangeable, inconvertable, self-potent, and, in short, subsisting in essence alone the infinitely worthy good.

(Against Beron and Helix, Fragment 1; in ANF, Vol. 5)

The Divine Nature was not changed or affected by the incarnation. The Divine pre-existing Person of the Son, eternally begotten of God rather than created, consubstantial with the Father (that is of one being), assumed a human nature and a human soul, thereby uniting In His Person the Divine and the Human but without “mixing”.

 

[Vouthon]

…one can conclude that they were not in UNION before the birth of Jesus, otherwise there would never need to be a union in the first place.

This “Divine Nature”, the “I am” of the “Before Abraham was, I am” is clearly the a separate entity.
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Sorry bruv but you’ve got it completely topsy-turvy at this point.

What you have stated above is the heresy of Nestorianism from our perspective (not saying you are a heretic mind because you are not Catholic so you cannot be ):

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p122a3p1.htm#470

466 The Nestorian heresy regarded Christ as a human person joined to the divine person of God’s Son. Opposing this heresy, St. Cyril of Alexandria and the third ecumenical council, at Ephesus in 431, confessed "that the Word, uniting to himself in his person the flesh animated by a rational soul, became man."89 Christ’s humanity has no other subject than the divine person of the Son of God, who assumed it and made it his own, from his conception. For this reason the Council of Ephesus proclaimed in 431 that Mary truly became the Mother of God by the human conception of the Son of God in her womb: "Mother of God, not that the nature of the Word or his divinity received the beginning of its existence from the holy Virgin, but that, since the holy body, animated by a rational soul, which the Word of God united to himself according to the hypostasis, was born from her, the Word is said to be born according to the flesh."90

The Hypostatic Union was not a union of two separate “entities”, a Divine Person and a Human One.

It was rather the Divine Person of the Pre-Existent Word of God *assuming *an additional human nature and soul.

Jesus is the Divine Person of the Word of God. He pre-existed from all eternity and through the Incarnation assumed a human nature and soul.

 

[Vouthon]

The point is, that this “Divine Entity” that says “I am” become united with other human Temples from Age to Age.
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Then in Catholic understanding every single person would be a manifestation of God The Hypostatic Union of Jesus is not what you are describing above from a Catholic mindset. Jesus in His Human Nature is not a separate entity from His Divine Nature. It is One entity with two Natures.

The way in which you describe the “union” between the “Divine entity” of the “I am” and the human individual, as two separate entities, is equivalent to how we would see the human body as the Temple of the Holy Spirit:

“…Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? For you have been purchased at a price. Therefore glorify God in your body…”

***(1 Corinthians 6:19-20) ***

In this respect, Catholics believe that we are united with the “Divine Nature” through grace and “partake of it”, as another book of the New Testament explains:

“…by which he has granted to us His precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire…”

- 2 Peter 1:4

This is our doctrine of “deification”:

Catechism of the Catholic Church No. 1988:

“….[God] gave himself to us through his Spirit. By the participation of the Spirit, we become communicants in the divine nature. . . . For this reason, those in whom the Spirit dwells are divinized…” (St. Athanasius, Ep. Serap. 1,24G 26,585 and 588.)

St. Athanasius lived in the fourth century AD.

St. Catherine of Genoa attained divinization to the extent that it is possible on this earth. Here is how she described it:

“…Inwardly I say: my I is God, nor is any other self known to me except my God…”

- Saint Catherine of Genoa (1447-1510), Italian Catholic mystic

At another place she had already said:

God became man in order to make me God; therefore I want to be changed completely into pure God

Here are some quotations from her writings that I helped arrange online:

en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Catherine_of_Genoa

Sufi Muslims, Hindu sages such as the authors of the Upanishads and Sikh Gurus have also claimed to attain such union with God, in which - though the divine essence and their own remain two separate entities, the individual feels so one with God that he can claim to be God, through participation in the divine nature and by grace.

 

[Vouthon]

Compare:

Originally Posted by Servant19
The point is, that this “Divine Entity” that says “I am” become united with other human Temples from Age to Age.

With what the deuterocanonical Book of Wisdom in the Old Testament, accepted by Catholics as sacred scripture but not by Jews or Protestants, states:

“…Wisdom is more moving than any motion: she passes and goes through all things by reason of her pureness, for she is the breath of the power of God, and a pure influence flowing from the glory of the Almighty: therefore no defiled thing can fall into her. She is the brightness of the everlasting light, the unspotted mirror of the power of God, and the image of His goodness. Being but One, she can do all things: and remaining in herself, she makes all things new: and in all ages entering into holy souls, she makes them friends of God, and prophets…”

*** – Wisdom of Solomon 7:24-27***

Venerable Pope Pius XII described in this encyclical from 1939 the qualities of these “holy souls” in the context of the history of Christianity whom the “wisdom of God” had entered into:

"…42. In the light of this unity of all mankind, which exists in law and in fact, individuals do not feel themselves isolated units, like grains of sand, but united by the very force of their nature and by their internal destiny, into an organic, harmonious mutual relationship which varies with the changing of times.

1. And the nations, despite a difference of development due to diverse conditions of life and of culture, are not destined to break the unity of the human race, but rather to enrich and embellish it by the sharing of their own peculiar gifts and by that reciprocal interchange of goods which can be possible and efficacious only when a mutual love and a lively sense of charity unite all the sons of the same Father and all those redeemed by the same Divine Blood…

1. Such is the marvelous doctrine of love and peace which has been such an ennobling factor in the civil and religious progress of mankind. And the heralds who proclaimed it, moved by supernatural charity, not only tilled the land and cared for the sick, but above all they reclaimed, moulded and raised life to divine heights, directing it toward the summit of sanctity in which everything is seen in the light of God. They have raised mansions and temples which show to what lofty and kindly heights the Christian ideal urges man; but above all they have made of men, wise or ignorant, strong or weak, living temples of God and branches of the very vine which is Christ. They have handed on to future generations the treasures of ancient art and wisdom and have secured for them that inestimable gift of eternal wisdom which links men as brothers by the common recognition of a supernatural ownership.

1. Venerable Brethren, forgetfulness of the law of universal charity - of that charity which alone can consolidate peace by extinguishing hatred and softening envies and dissensions - is the source of very grave evils for peaceful relations between nations…"

- Venerable Pope Pius XII, Summi Pontificatus (On the Unity of Human Society), 1939

vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_20101939_summi-pontificatus_en.html

 

[eddie_too]

well done vouthon!!!

bottom line, Jesus of Nazareth is a Divine Person possessing a Divine Nature and a human nature.

the rest of us human beings are non-divine persons possessing only a human nature.

 

[Vouthon]

well done vouthon!!!

bottom line, Jesus of Nazareth is a Divine Person possessing a Divine Nature and a human nature.

the rest of us human beings are non-divine persons possessing only a human nature.

Amen

And the human nature that we all possess can, according to Catholic doctrine and the Bible, partake through grace in the divine nature of the Holy Trinity, while we remain a distinct entity from God in essence.

I therefore hold that the Baha’i description of the divine and human natures, as brother Servant has explained it to us, is more akin to the Catholic understanding of the mutual indwelling of the Holy Trinity by grace in the Temple of the soul of every baptized person (and indeed non-believers who are baptised by implicit desire) rather than the Hypostatic Union of the Son of God made man.

 

[Vouthon]

If I may illustrate pictorially.

Here is the orthodox Catholic doctrine of the Hypostatic Union:

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

And here is the heretical Nestorian doctrine of two distinct persons in Christ that are separate yet joined in union:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/13/Nestorianism.svg

It is the Nestorian doctrine, brother Servant, that you would appear to be putting forward.

The Nestorian heresy is, nonetheless, an accurate representation of the union of the human soul with God I would say in that unlike the Hypostatic Union of Christ it is a unification of two separate Persons through grace (union of will, intellect and memory but independent essences).

 

[daler]

It is the Nestorian doctrine, brother Servant, that you would appear to be putting forward.

The Nestorian heresy is, nonetheless, an accurate representation of the union of the human soul with God I would say in that unlike the Hypostatic Union of Christ it is a unification of two separate Persons through grace (union of will, intellect and memory but independent essences).

Vouthon,
. Forgive me for something tangent to your current address, but I would appreciate if you would weigh in on something “coincidental” about the following re-occurrences and an observation connecting them all together as one.

. There is something interesting about the number “40” in religious prophecy that is not often noticed:

God told Noah that it will “rain” for 40 days and 40 nights, non-stop
Noah waited 40 days after the flood before exiting the ark.
Moses was on the mountain for 40 days, not once, but twice!
Moses wandered in the wilderness for 40 years
Goliath appeared for 40 days before being killed by David.
Elijah strengthened by one angelic meal went 40 days to Mount Horeb where the Lord passed by and he heard the voice of God
Jonah warned the City of Nineveh they had 40 days until God would overthrow the city.
The people repented in those 40 days and God spared the city.
Jesus fasted for 40 days
Muhammad began receiving revelation at the age of 40
Before Mullah Husayn began his search for the Promised One (the Bab), he prayed and fasted for 40 days.
The time between Mullah Husayn finding the Bab until the second Letter of the Living did was 40 days
The Bab wrote His first major work, the Qayyumu’l-Asma, in 40 days.
Baha’u’llah received revelation for 40 years, from 1852 until His ascension in 1892, despite enduring numerous extreme circumstances which threatened to cut short His life and prevent the this final forty from being fulfilled.

. I respectfully realize that the theological doctrines that you genuinely adhere to do not include the last few events listed above, but am curious as to your own curiosity regarding the following conclusions.

. Thus, as God told Noah it would be so, it “rained” from the Heaven of God’s Revelation for 40 years non-stop, from the Pen of Baha’u’llah, from 1852 through 1892, fulfilling prophecy linked to all of these Biblical accounts and similar external events. As the earth is the recipient of heavenly rain and is renewed thereby, such is the meaning of the prophecy foretold in Revelation: “I saw a new heaven and a new earth.”
. For indeed, the earth of men’s hearts who receive this heavenly outpouring is being renewed, knowledge is increasing, the One Shepherd is gradually gathering humanity together as One Fold, composed of all of these previous sub-folds of “other sheep” gathered during the Prophetic Cycle in preparation for this Day of God.

.

 

[Vouthon]

Vouthon,
. Forgive me for something tangent to your current address, but I would appreciate if you would weigh in on something “coincidental” about the following re-occurrences and an observation connecting them all together as one.
.

Hello Daler

Thank you for your post.

Here is how the Catechism of the Catholic Church explains the “forty days” significance in the lives of Moses and Jesus:

Here is how the Catechism of the Catholic Church explains the event:

538 The Gospels speak of a time of solitude for Jesus in the desert immediately after his baptism by John. Driven by the Spirit into the desert, Jesus remains there for forty days without eating; he lives among wild beasts, and angels minister to him [cf. Mk 1:12-13]. At the end of this time Satan tempts him three times, seeking to compromise his filial attitude toward God. Jesus rebuffs these attacks, which recapitulate the temptations of Adam in Paradise and of Israel in the desert, and the devil leaves him “until an opportune time” [Lk 4:13].

539 The evangelists indicate the salvific meaning of this mysterious event: Jesus is the new Adam who remained faithful just where the first Adam had given in to temptation. Jesus fulfils Israel’s vocation perfectly: in contrast to those who had once provoked God during forty years in the desert, Christ reveals himself as God’s Servant, totally obedient to the divine will. In this, Jesus is the devil’s conqueror: he “binds the strong man” to take back his plunder [cf. Ps 95:10; Mk 3:27]. Jesus’ victory over the tempter in the desert anticipates victory at the Passion, the supreme act of obedience of his filial love for the Father.

We therefore see the Old Testament narrative of the wandering of the Jews for 40 years as a corporeal foreshadowing of a spiritual truth later unveiled in Christ’s life, through his 40 days and nights in the desert.

I understand that you are relating this to Baha’u’llah in a similar respect?

 

[Servant19]

Partially right :dancing:

The “Divine Nature” is in reference to the Person of the Son of God who assumed a human nature, including a human soul, during the Incarnation. It is a doctrine of the Catholic Faith that the two natures of Christ do not “mix”. He is fully human and fully divine, not a combo of both or a broth in which the two are in a melange together.

This is important because of our other doctrine of divine impassibility. God does not have emotions. Emotions are a result of changeableness.

The Son of God is the Person of Jesus who unites the divine and human natures in one being. It is Christ in His Human Nature and human soul who experienced emotions. Not in His Divine Nature.

God does not experience sorrow or pain according to the Fathers and scholastics. He cannot “suffer”, that is part of what the doctrine of impassibility entails.

The Church Fathers explained this quite clearly:

The Divine Nature was not changed or affected by the incarnation. The Divine pre-existing Person of the Son, eternally begotten of God rather than created, consubstantial with the Father (that is of one being), assumed a human nature and a human soul, thereby uniting In His Person the Divine and the Human but without “mixing”.

Thankyou brother. Gee the differences are so so subtle, its so very difficult to put a finger on it, and I am beginning to think that the only difference is that you believe the Eternal Logos to be God, but Baha’is know this as not to be the case.

The Eternal Logos is described as the following in Julio Savis’ wonderful book “The Eternal Quest for God”:

bahai-library.org/books/quest/quest.03.html

please read the sections under the subheading “Creation” and share with us any areas that are of interest brother

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[Servant19]

Amen

And the human nature that we all possess can, according to Catholic doctrine and the Bible, partake through grace in the divine nature of the Holy Trinity, while we remain a distinct entity from God in essence.

I therefore hold that the Baha’i description of the divine and human natures, as brother Servant has explained it to us, is more akin to the Catholic understanding of the mutual indwelling of the Holy Trinity by grace in the Temple of the soul of every baptized person (and indeed non-believers who are baptised by implicit desire) rather than the Hypostatic Union of the Son of God made man.

Yes brother, I really am starting to think that are differences are not that large after all



…and I would say that what Catholics term “Incarnation”, Bahai’s would term “Emanation”

 

[Servant19]

Yes brother, I really am starting to think that are differences are not that large after all



…and I would say that what Catholics term “Incarnation”, Bahai’s would term “Emanation”

 

[eddie_too]

i thnk teaching that Jesus is the One God, Creator of all things is far different from teaching that Jesus is a man enlightened by the One God, Creator of all things.

it is hard to imagine a greater distinction.

 

[Servant19]

i thnk teaching that Jesus is the One God, Creator of all things is far different from teaching that Jesus is a man enlightened by the One God, Creator of all things.

it is hard to imagine a greater distinction.

I think you’ve missed the mark with your understanding of the Baha’i position brother.

Please read the link I posted 2 posts back

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