False Prophets the most used comeback!

[Techno2000]

. There have been miracles recorded, but even as Jesus said not to talk about them, so also did the Bab and Baha’u’llah say the same.

. The point which seems to be missed is this. That miracles are not to be regarded as proofs, for they are only proof to those to who were witness to them. After that, they become a kind of hearsay, a rumor reported amongst men, subject to alteration and magnification.

. The other aspect of this which seems to be lost is that of the true proofs, which are even as the fruits of a tree, which prove what kind of tree it is. The greatest proof of the Manifestations of God are not tricks and , but Their verses which, when implanted in the hearts of men, suffer them to be changed into new creatures.

. By the power of the Words of God, as uttered by His Prophets and Messengers, humanity is set upon its true course, bares its potential fruit, and achieves spiritual victory.

. Even as Jesus said: “Ye must be born again”, so too did Baha’u’llah utter these words:

. “Whoso hath been reborn in this Day, shall never die; whoso remaineth dead, shall never live.” .

reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/TU/tu-3.html

.

Just a few Jesus said not to talk about, he did many miracles.

Calming the storm – Matthew 8:23-27; Mark 4:37-41; Luke 8:22-25

Feeding 5,000 - Matthew 14:14-21; Mark 6:30-44; Luke 9:10-17; John 6:1-14

Walking on water - Matthew 14:22-32; Mark 6:47-52; John 6:16-21

Feeding 4,000 – Matthew 15:32-39; Mark 8:1-9

Fish with coin – Matthew 17:24-27

Fig tree withers – Matthew 21:18-22; Mark 11:12-14, 20-25

Huge catch of fish – Luke 5:4-11; John 21:1-11

Water into wine – John 2:1-11

Man with leprosy – Matthew 8:1-4; Mark 1:40-44; Luke 5:12-14

Roman centurion’s servant – Matthew 8:5-13; Luke 7:1-10

Peter’s mother-in-law – Matthew 8:14-15; Mark 1:30-31; Luke 4:38-39

Two men possessed with devils – Matthew 8:28-34; Mark 5:1-15; Luke 8:27-39

Man with palsy – Matthew 9:2-7; Mark 2:3-12; Luke 5:18-26

Woman with bleeding – Matthew 9:20-22; Mark 5:25-34; Luke 8:43-48

Two blind men – Matthew 9:27-31

Dumb, devil-possessed man - Matthew 9:32-33

Canaanite woman’s daughter – Matthew 15:21-28; Mark 7:24-30

Boy with devil - Matthew 17:14-21; Mark 9:17-29; Luke 9:38-43

Two blind men – including Bartimaeus - Matthew 20:29-34; Mark 10:46-52; Luke 18:35-43

Demon-possessed man in synagogue – Mark 1:21-28; Luke 4:31-37

Blind man at Bethsaida – Mark 8:22-26

Crippled woman – Luke 13:10-17

Man with dropsy – Luke 14:1-4

Ten men with leprosy – Luke 17:11-19

The high priest’s servant – Luke 22:50-51

Nobleman’s son at Capernaum – John 4:46-54

Sick man at the pool of Bethsaida – John 5:1-15

Man born blind – John 9:1-41

Jairus’ daughter – Matthew 9:18-26; Mark 5:21-43; Luke 8:40-56

Widow’s son at Nain – Luke 7:11-17

Lazarus – John 11:1-44

 

[Techno2000]

. .

Even as Jesus said: “Ye must be born again”, so too did Baha’u’llah utter these words:

reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/TU/tu-3.html

.

Born again means to be baptized.

 

[Servant19]

Born again means to be baptized.

…and baptism by spirit is a de fide teaching of the Catholic religion

.

 

[tonyfish58]

Born again means to be baptized.

I am glad Christ was Born Again then

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[daler]

I am glad Christ was Born Again then

God Bless and Regards Tony

JOKE:

A Hindu and a Baptist were having a conversation in which the Baptist kept insisting that the HIndu must be born again, to which the Hindu responded with much frustration, finally saying to the Baptist:

“But this is the problem: I have been born again, and again, and again…”

 

[tonyfish58]

JOKE:

A Hindu and a Baptist were having a conversation in which the Baptist kept insisting that the HIndu must be born again, to which the Hindu responded with much frustration, finally saying to the Baptist:

“But this is the problem: I have been born again, and again, and again…”

Funny

Oh that we could Love Christ in All His Glory and throw away the old attire

What we have done to God 's Prophets should not be forgiven, thank Christ that He showers Gods Bounty and Forgiveness on us!

God Bless and regards Tony

 

[daler]

Just a few Jesus said not to talk about, he did many miracles.

Techno,
. Here is a link of a couple of pages concerning the miracles of the Bab and Baha’u’llah:

angelfire.com/mo/baha/08.html

 

[Techno2000]

…and baptism by spirit is a de fide teaching of the Catholic religion

.

There is no such thing as Baptism by spirit in the Catholic church, show me.

 

[daler]

There is no such thing as Baptism by spirit in the Catholic church, show me.

From Luke 3:16 we read the following:

. "John answered their questions by saying, “I baptize you with water; but someone is coming soon who is greater than I am–so much greater that I’m not even worthy to be his slave and untie the straps of his sandals. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.”

 

[Servant19]

There is no such thing as Baptism by spirit in the Catholic church, show me.

I don’t mean to be rude, but I am very busy studying brother Vouthon’s post during the few moments I have available this weekend.

I am sure brother Vouthon himself will point you in the correct direction to learn about baptism by spirit.

For now, suffice it to say that it absolutely is a de fide teaching of the Catholic faith.



.

 

[tonyfish58]

From Luke 3:16 we read the following:

. "John answered their questions by saying, “I baptize you with water; but someone is coming soon who is greater than I am–so much greater that I’m not even worthy to be his slave and untie the straps of his sandals. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.”

A burning Love!

What a promise, what a fulfillment!

I found this

The Sacrament of Baptism
CCC 1213 Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit (vitae spiritualis ianua), and the door which gives access to the other sacraments. Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission: “Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water in the word.”

1214 This sacrament is called Baptism, after the central rite by which it is carried out: to baptize (Greek baptizein) means to “plunge” or “immerse”; the “plunge” into the water symbolizes the catechumen’s burial into Christ’s death, from which he rises up by resurrection with him, as “a new creature.”

1215 This sacrament is also called “the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit,” for it signifies and actually brings about the birth of water and the Spirit without which no one “can enter the kingdom of God.”

1216 “This bath is called enlightenment, because those who receive this [catechetical] instruction are enlightened in their understanding
. . . .” Having received in Baptism the Word, “the true light that enlightens every man,” the person baptized has been “enlightened,” he becomes a “son of light,” indeed, he becomes “light” himself:
Baptism is God’s most beautiful and magnificent gift…We call it gift, grace, anointing, enlightenment, garment of immortality, bath of rebirth, seal, and most precious gift. It is called gift because it is conferred on those who bring nothing of their own; grace since it is given even to the guilty; Baptism because sin is buried in the water; anointing for it is priestly and royal as are those who are anointed; enlightenment because it radiates light; clothing since it veils our shame; bath because it washes; and seal as it is our guard and the sign of God’s Lordship. Read More about the Sacrament of Baptism in the Catechism of the Catholic Church : 1213-1284

God bless all - Regards Tony

 

[Techno2000]

Techno2000;11848857:

Just a few Jesus said not to talk about, he did many miracles.

Techno,
. Here is a link of a couple of pages concerning the miracles of the Bab and Baha’u’llah:

angelfire.com/mo/baha/08.html

They must have really,really hated Bab to get a 750 man firing squad to kill him.

 

[daler]

daler;11848913:

They must have really,really hated Bab to get a 750 man firing squad to kill him.

Yes, He was upsetting the whole of the country with His bold assertions. they could not answer Him, so He was killed.

 

[Techno2000]

catholicism.about.com/od/beliefsteachings/p/Sac_Baptism.htm

The Necessity of Baptism:

Christ Himself ordered His disciples to preach the Gospel to all nations and to baptize those who accept the message of the Gospel. In His encounter with Nicodemus (John 3:1-21), Christ made it clear that baptism was necessary for salvation: “Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” For Catholics, the sacrament is not a mere formality; it is the very mark of a Christian, because it brings us into new life in Christ.

 

[Techno2000]

Techno2000;11848949:

Yes, He was upsetting the whole of the country with His bold assertions. they could not answer Him, so He was killed.

They Hated Jesus too…

A True Letter Of Our Savior Jesus Christ

Consecrating the Drops of Blood which Our Lord Jesus lost on His way to Calvary.

Copy of a letter of the Oration found in the Holy Sepulchre of Our Lord Jesus Christ in Jerusalem, preserved in a silver box by His Holiness and by the Emporers and Empresses of the Christian Faith.
St. Elizabeth, Queen of Hungary, with St. Matilda and St. Bridget, wishing to know something of the Passion of Jesus Christ, offered fervent and special prayers, upon which there appeared to them Our Lord Jesus Christ who spoke to them in the following manner:

I descended from Heaven to the Earth in order to convert you.

In olden times, people were religious, and their harvests were abundant; at present, on the contrary, they are scanty.

If you want to reap an abundant harvest you must not work on Sunday, for Sunday you must go to Church and pray to God to forgive your sins. He gave you six days in which to work and one for rest and devotion and to tender your help to the poor and assist the Church.

Those people who brawl against My Religion and cast slurs on this Sacred Letter will be forsaken by Me.

On the contrary, those people who shall carry a copy of this letter with them shall be free from death by drowning and from sudden death. They shall be free from all contagious diseases and lightning; they shall not die without confession, and shall be free from their enemies and from the hand of wrongful authority, and from all their slanderers and false witnesses.

Women in peril at child-birth will, by keeping this Oration about them, immediately overcome the difficulty. In the houses where this Oration is kept, no evil thing will ever happen: and forty days before the death of a person who has this Oration about him or her, the Blessed Virgin will appear to him or her. So said St. Gregorious.

To all those faithful who shall recite for three years, each day, 2 Paters, Glorias, and Aves, in honor of the drops of blood I lost, I will concede the following five graces:
1st The plenary indulgence and remission of your sins.
2nd You will be free from the pains of Purgatory.
3rd If you should die before completing the said 3 years, for you it will be the same as if you had completed them.
4th It will be upon your death the same as if you had shed all your blood for the Holy Faith.
5th I will descend from Heaven to take your soul and that of your relatives, until the fourth generation.

Be it known that the number of armed soldiers were 150; those who trailed me while I was bound were 23. The number of executioners of justice were 83; the blows received on my head were 150; those on my stomach, 108; kicks on my shoulders, 80. I was led, bound with cords by the hair, 24 times; spits in the face were 180; I was beaten on the body 6666 times; beaten on the head, 110 times. I was roughly pushed, and at 12 o’clock was lifted up by the hair; pricked with thorns and pulled by the beard 23 times; received 20 wounds on the head; thorns of marine junks, 72; pricks of thorns in the head, 110; mortal thorns in the forhead, 3. I was afterwards flogged and dressed as a mocked king; wounds in the body, 1000. The soldiers who led me to the Calvary were 608; those who watched me were 3, and those who mocked me were 1008; the drops of blood which I lost were 28,430.

Benedetta DA S.S.; Pope Leo XIII, in Roma 5 Aprile 1890
brizek.com/prayer/pieta.htm

 

[Vouthon]

There is no such thing as Baptism by spirit in the Catholic church, show me.

Dear Techno,

Our friend Servant is actually fully correct in this respect. It is a doctrine of the Catholic Church that, where it is not possible to obtain the regeneration of baptism through the sacrament itself, the implicit desire for it - which consists in the will to obey the will of God as it is known to that person’s conscience - is sufficient for their salvation and gives them the grace of baptism. This is why the Church teaches that non-Christians can be saved.

If I may point you too some documents in this respect:

"…Q: But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved?

A: If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God’s will as best he can, such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation

…

16 Q: Is Baptism necessary to salvation?

A: Baptism is absolutely necessary to salvation, for our Lord has expressly said: “Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.”

17 Q: Can the absence of Baptism be supplied in any other way?

A: The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, which is called Baptism of Blood, or by an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism, and this is called Baptism of Desire…"

***- Pope Saint Pius X, Catechism (1910) ***

“…Baptism, therefore, coming from a Greek word that means washing or immersion in water, is distinguished into Baptism of water, of spirit, and of blood. … But Baptism of spirit is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true Baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt…It is called ‘of spirit’ because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Spirit. Now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of spirit, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam, ‘de presbytero non baptizato’ and of the Council of Trent, session 6, Chapter 4 where it is said that no one can be saved 'without the laver of regeneration or the desire…Who can deny that the act of perfect love of God, which is sufficient for justification, includes an implicit desire of Baptism, of Penance, and of the Eucharist. He who wishes the whole wishes the every part of that whole and all the means necessary for its attainment. In order to be justified without baptism, an infidel must love God above all things, and must have an universal will to observe all the divine precepts, among which the first is to receive baptism: and therefore in order to be justified it is necessary for him to have at least an implicit desire of that sacrament…”

- Saint Alphonsus Maria de Liguori (1696 – 1787), Doctor of the Church

Cardinal Juan De Lugo (a. d. 1583-1660), Spaniard, post-Reformation Roman Catholic, Jesuit, Theological Professor, and a Cardinal writing in Rome under the eyes of Pope Urban VIII. He wrote this in one of his works:

“…the members of the various Christian sects, of the Jewish and Mohammedan communions, and of the non-Christian philosophies, who achieved and achieve their salvation, did and do so in general simply by God’s grace aiding their good faith instinctively to concentrate itself upon, and to practise, those elements in the cultus and teaching of their respective sect, communion or philosophy, which are true and good and originally revealed by God…”

-Cardinal Juan De Lugo (a. d. 1583-1660), De Fide, Disputations

Here is St. Thomas Aquinas’ (13th century) take on it:

Whether three kinds of Baptism are fittingly described–viz. Baptism of Water, of Blood, and of the Spirit?

Consequently, a man may, without Baptism of Water, receive the sacramental effect from Christ’s Passion, in so far as he is conformed to Christ by suffering for Him. Hence it is written (Apoc. 7:14): “These are they who are come out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes and have made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”** In like manner a man receives the effect of Baptism by the power of the Holy Ghost, not only without Baptism of Water, but also without Baptism of Blood: forasmuch as his heart is moved by the Holy Ghost to believe in and love God and to repent of his sins: wherefore this is also called Baptism of Repentance**. Of this it is written (Is. 4:4): “If the Lord shall wash away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall wash away the blood of Jerusalem out of the midst thereof, by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.” Thus, therefore, each of these other Baptisms is called Baptism, forasmuch as it takes the place of Baptism. Wherefore Augustine says (De Unico Baptismo Parvulorum iv): “The Blessed Cyprian argues with considerable reason from the thief to whom, though not baptized, it was said: ‘Today shalt thou be with Me in Paradise’ that suffering can take the place of Baptism. Having weighed this in my mind again and again, I perceive that not only can suffering for the name of Christ supply for what was lacking in Baptism, but even faith and conversion of heart, if perchance on account of the stress of the times the celebration of the mystery of Baptism is not practicable.”

 

[Vouthon]

Here is the Catholic Encycoepedia on it:

Catholic Encyclopedia (~1913): Baptism: Substitutes for the Sacrament: “The Fathers and theologians frequently divide baptism into three kinds: the baptism of water (aquæ or fluminis), the baptism of desire (flaminis), and the baptism of blood (sanguinis). However, only the first is a real sacrament. The latter two are denominated baptism only analogically, inasmuch as they supply the principal effect of baptism, namely, the grace which remits sins. It is the teaching of the Catholic Church that when the baptism of water becomes a physical or moral impossibility, eternal life may be obtained by the baptism of desire or the baptism of blood.”

The Church: “Thus, even in the case in which God Saves men apart from the Church, He does so through the Church’s graces. They are joined to the Church in spiritual communion, though not in visible and external communion. In the expression of theologians, they belong to the soul of the Church, though not to its body.”

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Miracles are no longer used as “proofs” and no one “forces” you to accept the Bab or Baha’u’llah as acceptance is based on your own independent investigation of the truth…

My point in asking the question is to reject the notion that we would not have to accept the BAb or Ali Hussain if we used miracles as a criteria because they had no miracles. The closest is that Ali Hussain (if it was the Bab correct me) wasn’t shot by a firing squad and was then killed.

I reject notion that simply because one can perform a miracle means one is from God anyway, its the type of miracle along with the character of the person performing the miracle which matters. That Jesus rose from the dead, no spirit beside’s God can accomplish that.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

That is not correct. I said just because we do not use them as proof, does not mean they did not perform them.

Arthra has told you the Baha’i view of Miracles as a proof of Faith as I did in my post.

It is also Biblical as Christ also did no want this aspect of Faith to overtake His True Mission. When Christ performed a Miracle this is what He said;
**
“Jesus ordered the people not to tell anyone, but the more he kept ordering them, the more they kept spreading the news”.** Mark 7:36 International Standard Version

"Then Jesus said to him, “See that you don’t tell anyone. But go, show yourself to the priest and offer the gift Moses commanded, as a testimony to them.” Matthew 8:4 NIV

That is self explanatory is it not?

God Bless and Regards Tony

Rather it seems that Christ wanted to remain anonymous as much as possible because the jews would force him to become their military messiah they dreamed about. Jesus was not the sort of Messiah they were expecting however. Jesus however nowhere diminishes his miracles, nowhere considers them less what they are, the power of God made manifest in his person. It was not for nothing that Jesus healed people, nor was it against the law of God that he did heal people.

It is against the bahai philosophy however.

…and baptism by spirit is a de fide teaching of the Catholic religion

.

Can we have a conversion without the bahai totally distorting the position of others when they know what they meant? Baptism, as Christ himself says in John’s Gospel is by the water and the spirit. Christ himself gave the command to baptise in the name of the Father and the son and the Holy spirit. The Apostles Baptized people with water. A fundamental component is to be baptised with water, even if they had received the spirit as we see in the book of acts.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

…and baptism by spirit is a de fide teaching of the Catholic religion

.

Can we have a conversion without the bahai totally distorting the position of others when they know what they meant? Baptism, as Christ himself says in John’s Gospel is by the water and the spirit. Christ himself gave the command to baptise in the name of the Father and the son and the Holy spirit. The Apostles Baptized people with water. A fundamental component is to be baptised with water, even if they had received the spirit as we see in the book of acts.