False religions, worship nothing or demons?

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IgnatianPhilo said:
I’m just pointing out that the inconsistency. You advocate peace and not war. Yet Muhammad was a violent conqueror, to be a conqueror of land demands you to be violent. Moses did it as well but he bought less time than Muhammad, depending on whenever the Buddha came about. Bahais agree that we should be like Jesus and not advocate like Muhammad that whatever our right hand posses (women slaves) we can make use of. You go to Jesus more than Muhammad because you know he was a better person. So when the next prophet comes and he advocates war, will he purchase greater time of salvaiton than Muhammad? What does a prophet have to do to enlarge the amount of years between the salvation he buys for people? Why did the author of Hebrews lie to us? Why did the new testament lie to the Christian?

But I maintain a strict difference between your prophet and Jesus. For one thing he did not create the universe. His is not the name under heaven and earth which will save you. No bahai cries out in the name of “Ali Hussein, the father and the holy spirit.” For one thing, your prophet does not sit at the right hand of God.
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Whats all this got to do with Muslims believing and revering and loving Jesus???

:confused:

As I have said, the Prophets are sent to specific regions to shine light upon a dark generation and a dark civilization. They are spiritually dead, the Prophet gives them life. They are thirsty, the Prophet gives them to drink from the chalice of Life. How God decides to go about this is not be questioned. The purpose is that there is spiritual advancement, from darkness into light.
 
IgnatianPhilo said:
If you ignore the words of Jesus, Paul, Hebrews, Peter, John and all the apostolic witness and testimony and those who knew the apostles. Sure you can say that if you ignore all of those. You cannot deal with the bible though. You can take things from it and misuse them but you cannot deal with it. If Jesus says he is the only way to the father you have to tell Jesus he is wrong.
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Jesus was the Way for His age because He gave His commandments as a means to abide by the Will of the Father. Which of His commandments do Baha’is not follow?

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Servant19 said:
Whats all this got to do with Muslims believing and revering and loving Jesus???

:confused:

As I have said, the Prophets are sent to specific regions to shine light upon a dark generation and a dark civilization. They are spiritually dead, the Prophet gives them life. They are thirsty, the Prophet gives them to drink from the chalice of Life. How God decides to go about this is not be questioned. The purpose is that there is spiritual advancement, from darkness into light.
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The question is this, how is there a clear criteria for what the prophet must do in order to purchase years of salvation. Jesus paid the price according to our sins. But saint Paul’s renting of right doctrine expired when Muhammad came, therefore he is wrong now. Jesus cannot save anyone now that we have the new prophet, the brand new model 5000 T complete with subjectivity and Mysticism back up systems built into it.

There is no real advancement in bahai religion, only the eternal struggle. God does not plan an end to this universe, it will go on forever. Evil will exist forever and God will not stop it. There will a 10000 Model prophet which will bring only 100 years of salvation. This is a such weird and elaborate system your God has thought up of. To what end is all this constant re-visioning of religion, this constant dividing up of humanity?
 
Servant19 said:
Jesus was the Way for His age because He gave His commandments as a means to abide by the Will of the Father. Which of His commandments do Baha’is not follow?

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You do not baptise in his name. You do not eat the Eucharist in his name. And you deny his words that he is the only way to the father. You also deny the new testament when it says he died once for all for the salvation of men who are sinners. You keep ignoring that part. That niggling, once for all thing.
 
IgnatianPhilo said:
The question is this, how is there a clear criteria for what the prophet must do in order to purchase years of salvation. Jesus paid the price according to our sins. But saint Paul’s renting of right doctrine expired when Muhammad came, therefore he is wrong now. Jesus cannot save anyone now that we have the new prophet, the brand new model 5000 T complete with subjectivity and Mysticism back up systems built into it.

There is no real advancement in bahai religion, only the eternal struggle. God does not plan an end to this universe, it will go on forever. Evil will exist forever and God will not stop it. There will a 10000 Model prophet which will bring only 100 years of salvation. This is a such weird and elaborate system your God has thought up of. To what end is all this constant re-visioning of religion, this constant dividing up of humanity?
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Its an incorrect question Ignatian.

Why would Muhammad or Baha’u’llah need to give you salvation?

Each Prophet has a clearly defined Mission, as set by God. The Mission is accomplished through the sacrifices made by the Prophet. Some Prophets die, as a sacrifice, some Prophets suffer incredible and tortuous torment, some Prophets have both torture and are killed/martyred.

Jesus gave us salvation. Muhammad and Baha’u’llah BUILD on that.

Jesus gave us the basic commandments of love your enemies etc etc. and through this we attain salvation.

The Missions of Baha’u’llah and Muhammad do not need for them to offer salvation again. IT"S ALREADY GIVEN. Baha’is and Muslims are instructed to have unabounding obedience to the commandments of Jesus.

The Missions of Muslims and Baha’is are on a community, national and global scale.

You are trying to compare apples with oranges…

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IgnatianPhilo said:
You do not baptise in his name. You do not eat the Eucharist in his name. And you deny his words that he is the only way to the father. You also deny the new testament when it says he died once for all for the salvation of men who are sinners. You keep ignoring that part. That niggling, once for all thing.
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We do not need to baptize in His name. We are already "baptized by Spirit" according to Catholicism.

Again, as Jesus said, “He who does the Will of the Father…”
…He didn’t say “He who is baptized according to the formula outlined by the Apostles are the only ones who enter the Kingdom of heaven”

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Servant19 said:
Its an incorrect question Ignatian.

Why would Muhammad or Baha’u’llah need to give you salvation?

Each Prophet has a clearly defined Mission, as set by God. The Mission is accomplished through the sacrifices made by the Prophet. Some Prophets die, as a sacrifice, some Prophets suffer incredible and tortuous torment, some Prophets have both torture and are killed/martyred.

Jesus gave us salvation. Muhammad and Baha’u’llah BUILD on that.

Jesus gave us the basic commandments of love your enemies etc etc. and through this we attain salvation.

The Missions of Baha’u’llah and Muhammad do not need for them to offer salvation again. IT"S ALREADY GIVEN. Baha’is and Muslims are instructed to have unabounding obedience to the commandments of Jesus.

The Missions of Muslims and Baha’is are on a community, national and global scale.

You are trying to compare apples with oranges…

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Before you were denying Jesus gave us salvation forever. What is it with you bahai? Why can’t you maintain a point til the end without clarifying yourselves? But since you admitted that Jesus was the one who gave salvation, (he also created the universe you live in and he created you and will judge you at the end of time) I don’t need your prophet at all. Jesus showed how to live the perfect life. No one needs your prophet’s teaching. Jesus outshines your prophet whenever whenever the two are compared. Don’t you agree? I mean what can your prophet do for you that Jesus hasn’t already done? Jesus gave the perfect moral teaching, he also gave salvation. He maintained he was the only way to the father. His is the only name under heaven which we must confess.
 
Servant19 said:
Hey there meltzer 🙂

Would Jews classify Christianity as a false religion at all?

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The details of Christianity may be false but the essence is not. Some in Judaism believe that G-d enabled the creation of many religions to spread His word. Christianity has done a great job in doing so.
 
Servant19 said:
We do not need to baptize in His name. We are already "baptized by Spirit" according to Catholicism.

Again, as Jesus said, “He who does the Will of the Father…”
…He didn’t say “He who is baptized according to the formula outlined by the Apostles are the only ones who enter the Kingdom of heaven”

.
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No he said baptise by water and the spirit. The apostles did it and the practice has been maintained. Baptism, now saves you, says Peter. But what catholic is going to say that a bahai who denies Jesus as God is baptized by the spirit of God? You will not say that Jesus is the only name under heaven which one must confess. Don’t drag the Catholics into this as if they will defend you. I know their theology concerning this, that those whom are ignorant of the gospel of Jesus and Christ might be saved if they seek what God has revealed to them. God has revealed himself to you by Jesus and you have said no, I want this Persian mystic. You claim you are not ignorant and so the words of Jesus will condemn you in the end if you maintain the course.
 
meltzerboy said:
The details of Christianity may be false but the essence is not. Some in Judaism believe that G-d enabled the creation of many religions to spread His word. Christianity has done a great job in doing so.
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Thankyou 🙂

Would you say that some of the teachings of Jesus in any way "build’ on the Commandments at all?

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IgnatianPhilo said:
No he said baptise by water and the spirit. The apostles did it and the practice has been maintained. Baptism, now saves you, says Peter. But what catholic is going to say that a bahai who denies Jesus as God is baptized by the spirit of God?
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Firstly, Baha’is do not deny Jesus Christ. Please refrain on persisting on this delusion. 🙂

Secondly, yes, Catholicism teaches that “Baptism by Spirit” (that means no water needed) is a de fide teaching

🙂

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Servant19 said:
Firstly, Baha’is do not deny Jesus Christ. Please refrain on persisting on this delusion. 🙂

Secondly, yes, Catholicism teaches that “Baptism by Spirit” (that means no water needed) is a de fide teaching

🙂

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Find me one Catholic on this forum that will testify that you have been baptized by the spirit. Find one Catholic priest, Bishop, Deacon, Cardinal or Pope that will declare you baptized by the spirit. Don’t quote their teaching as if you personally think it applies to you, find me an authority that will testify that you are in communion with the Catholic church, baptized in the spirit.

Also, you deny Jesus as much as the gnostic denies Jesus. Simply because you say you believe in him, doesnt mean you accept what he actually said.
 
Servant19 said:
Thankyou 🙂

Would you say that some of the teachings of Jesus in any way "build’ on the Commandments in any way?

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I believe Jesus had a profound understanding of the Torah (Written Law), which, according to Jewish belief, is essentially complete PROVIDED one use other sources to interpret it, such as the Talmud (Oral Law) and sometimes the Kabbalah (mystical writings). Almost everything Jesus said can be found in the Law, but too few Jews understood the profound meaning of the Law as Jesus did.
 
IgnatianPhilo said:
I’m pretty sure I advocated both the mind and demonic influence. If there is a third option do tell. If you think the mind in of itself is so awesome, then what place does God have in your world view? We are to receive God primarily, we are to receive the tradition handed down to us.
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I can only imagine what God thinks when His one of own creation scorns the mind he was given. :rolleyes:

Once again, I wonder if it’s really the Church I have issue with and not the members who use it as an excuse to put down human potential. From personal experience, the only thing I got from having faith in God but not humanity was a habit of undermining all that was good about myself, my life, and the people around me. Yeah. Healthy world view that was. :rolleyes:

And in all honesty? I still don’t see the danger you’re talking about. All I see is a different world view. I may agree or disagree with it. I may even attempt to disprove it.

But in no way do I see reason to be afraid of it. Fear has a tendency to trip you up when you try to set your mind to something, in case you didn’t know. 😉
 
IgnatianPhilo said:
\

Find me one Catholic on this forum that will testify that you have been baptized by the spirit. Find one Catholic priest, Bishop, Deacon, Cardinal or Pope that will declare you baptized by the spirit. Don’t quote their teaching as if you personally think it applies to you, find me an authority that will testify that you are in communion with the Catholic church, baptized in the spirit.
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I give you Augustine, and Thomas Aquinas
This most definitely does apply to me:
Augustine says (Super Levit. lxxxiv) that “some have received the invisible sanctification without visible sacraments, and to their profit; but though it is possible to have the visible sanctification, consisting in a visible sacrament, without the invisible sanctification, it will be to no profit.” Since, therefore, the sacrament of Baptism pertains to the visible sanctification, it seems that a man can obtain salvation without the sacrament of Baptism, by means of the invisible sanctification
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🙂

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meltzerboy said:
I believe Jesus had a profound understanding of the Torah (Written Law), which, according to Jewish belief, is essentially complete PROVIDED one use other sources to interpret it, such as the Talmud (Oral Law) and sometimes the Kabbalah (mystical writings). Almost everything Jesus said can be found in the Law, but too few Jews understood the profound meaning of the Law as Jesus did.
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Thankyou again dear friend. Would you say that Jesus “restored” the correct “spirit” of Judaism back into the community?

Also what is your understanding of Jesus’ Messianic claims? Was He a deceiver in the eyes of Jewish scholars today?

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tacdon said:
I disagree, I hope this isn’t the opinion of most catholics. If so I’ve lost a lot of respect for the catholic church. I might disagree with some things the catholic church does, but this is truly unbelievable.
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No, Catholics do not believe that Islam is the truth. In the Catechism it says “they profess to hold the faith of Abraham”…but they do not have the Truth. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life.
 
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