False Traditionalists and the Indult Mass

[DavidJoseph]

Yesterday after Mass at my FSSP-run parish, I got in a discussion with a fellow parishioner that seemed to get slightly heated. This woman is a false traditionalist (a more appropriate phrase than “radical traditionalist,” IMO). And when I say "radical traditionalist, “false traditionalist,” etc., I mean those who think it’s ok to disobey and ignore Vatican II, think the Novus Ordo Mass (even the most reverent ones) are sacrilegious, consider the SSPX and “independent” priests to be living saints, etc.

I don’t understand what someone like her is doing at an indult Mass rather than an independent or SSPX Mass (and there IS an SSPX chapel in the area). I mean, from what I’ve heard most false traditionalists hate the indult Mass and those who celebrate it, claiming they’re a group of sell-outs. Why? Because they accept Vatican II, are totally loyal to the Magisterium, and accept the validity of the Novus Ordo Mass!

Just needed to rant a little here … hope y’all don’t mind.

 

[GoLatin]

The SSPX counsels its adherents not to go to the Indult Mass, since the Indult means that proper authority(meaning a Bishop in FULL COMMUNION with Rome has given permission for the Mass.

Yet some SSPX adherents will sometimes go to an Indult Mass on occasion! How hypocritical!

And there are MANY people(I know, I’ve met them) who regularly attend Indult Masses, who think that Archbishop Lefebvre, and others like him, are the greatest thing since sliced bread.

There are also people, that I know(some of whom fit into the category of the previous paragraph), who attend the Novus Ordo Mass(recognising its validity, which is good), who think that what Archbishop Lefebvre did is wonderful. These people would go to an SSPX Mass if one were nearby, but to their credit they would probably go to an Indult instead if one were nearby.

Many local traditionalists in my area, while attending an approved Mass(if one is nearby) will support the SSPX in various ways, including:

Attending the SSPX ordinations.
Buying books published by the SSPX publishing house, Angelus Press.
Saying things like:“Maybe Archbishop Lefebvre wasn’t really excommunicated. He probably did what he needed to do, in order to preserve Tradition”.
Generally supporting the SSPX in what they say.

I don’t know why some false traditonalists attend the Indult Mass. Maybe they think that a particular Indult is “more traditional”, and therefore “safe”?

I find it extremely frustrating, when associating with traditionalists(I count myself as a traditionalist) that it is often difficult to find a traditionalist who thinks that the SSPX is in schism.

I talked recently with a Priest(who himself says the Tridentine Mass), who believes that Archbishop Lefebvre, and the four Bishops that he consecrated, were and are definitely EXCOMMUNICATED.

 

[ThomasMore1535]

GoLatin:

The SSPX counsels its adherents not to go to the Indult Mass, since the Indult means that proper authority(meaning a Bishop in FULL COMMUNION with Rome has given permission for the Mass.

Yet some SSPX adherents will sometimes go to an Indult Mass on occasion! How hypocritical!

And there are MANY people(I know, I’ve met them) who regularly attend Indult Masses, who think that Archbishop Lefebvre, and others like him, are the greatest thing since sliced bread.

There are also people, that I know(some of whom fit into the category of the previous paragraph), who attend the Novus Ordo Mass(recognising its validity, which is good), who think that what Archbishop Lefebvre did is wonderful. These people would go to an SSPX Mass if one were nearby, but to their credit they would probably go to an Indult instead if one were nearby.

Many local traditionalists in my area, while attending an approved Mass(if one is nearby) will support the SSPX in various ways, including:

Attending the SSPX ordinations.
Buying books published by the SSPX publishing house, Angelus Press.
Saying things like:“Maybe Archbishop Lefebvre wasn’t really excommunicated. He probably did what he needed to do, in order to preserve Tradition”.
Generally supporting the SSPX in what they say.

I don’t know why some false traditonalists attend the Indult Mass. Maybe they think that a particular Indult is “more traditional”, and therefore “safe”?

I find it extremely frustrating, when associating with traditionalists(I count myself as a traditionalist) that it is often difficult to find a traditionalist who thinks that the SSPX is in schism.

I talked recently with a Priest(who himself says the Tridentine Mass), who believes that Archbishop Lefebvre, and the four Bishops that he consecrated, were and are definitely EXCOMMUNICATED.

I hear you. I love, absolutely love, the Tridentine Mass. I prefer it to the Novous Ordo. But I do NOT despise the Novous Ordo mass. There is much good to it, and I love Vatican II.

Regarding your comment about Angelus Press, though, I know that they publish a lot of stuff opposed to the Church, but the Society of St. John Cantius sells their Tridentine Missal, and St. John Cantius is 100% loyal to the Church. They celebrate the Tridentine Mass AND the Novous Ordo mass reverently. In fact, I had to alert them to the fact that someone put a flyer in their church arguing for the abolition of the Novous Ordo mass, and they apologized to me about it being there, told me that they never gave anyone permission to do that, and that they certainly do not agree with it. They apparantly have to deal with a lot of people trying to publish dissenting material. But they do publish the Angelus missal, which I think is more of a preference for how nice it looks than anything else.

But, in the end, so-called “traditionalists” are no different from Protestants–they follow their own personal interpretations of tradition, and refuse to submit to the authority of the Roman Pontiff. It is so sad, so sad.

 

[ThomasMore1535]

Furthermore, one of the things that infuriates me the most is when they say, “oh, we have to be so greatful to Archbishop Lefebvre! If it wasn’t for him, we wouldn’t have the Tridentine Mass now!” Even if it is true that the Lefebvre schism resulted in the Indult Mass, saying that we should admire him for his actions is like saying we should admire Judas for betraying Our Lord, because without that betrayal there would have been no sacrifice and no ressurection and no redemption. I’m sure that comment will infuriate so-called “traditionalists,” but it is true. God brought a ton of good out of the Lefebvre schism, but that does not change the fact that the man spit in the face of the Roman Pontiff (who, if you read the letter he wrote to Lefebvre just before the excommunication, was as charitable and gentle as a saint can be in trying to persuade him not to cut himself off from the Body of Christ).

I just do not understand how anyone can commit such an act against Our Lord’s Church. I do not judge, because I have my own cross to carry, and it is not always easy, but it remains a complete mystery to me how someone can do what SSPX has done, claiming to be loyal to the Roman Pontiff and yet spitting in his face and refusing to submit to him at the same time. So sad, so sad.

We should ask Pope St. Pius X, who is no doubt quite upset at seeing his holy name being blasphemed by these “traditionalists” to pray for their repentance.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

I must say, it is truly grand to read the words of worthy Catholics such as yourself who identify themselves as traditional. It’s a far cry from other postings here in these forums.

 

[aurora77]

Hear, hear! I got approached at work (by a customer, not another employee) about my Catholic faith. She starts telling me about this TLM she attends about 45 minutes away. I was pretty excited–I’ve never been to a TLM; I’m very happy with my parish, but I’m just curious. It turns out it’s an SSPX chapel. I’d read just enough about this group on these boards to know to check things out. Whew!! Was I shocked. Some of things I read on their official website were vile and repugnant to me. Honestly, I feel like they’re just another Protestant group; either you believe that the Catholic Church was intstituted by Christ and therefore has authority or you don’t. They don’t believe that; they’re not Catholic.

On the plus side, in the midst of my searching; I did find an FSSP TLM about 2 hours away, we may make a day trip one Sunday to check them out.

 

[JNB]

I am far from being a fan of the way the SSPX is now, especially since Rome gave it an opportunity to reconcile in 2001, but that said, it will be up to future generations to judge what Abp. Lefebvre did in 1988, ironically if the SSPX took up Romes offer in 2001, it would have in effect reconciled Lefebvres actions in 1988, but that is another subject.

As for those who attend SSPX chapels themselves, dont paint with such a broad brush. Yes some are radical traditionalists that even say the chair of Peter is vacant, some just simpily want the mass and attend SSPX chapels for lack of an indult TLM, much less a revernt Novus Ordo. As for me, get me a Novus Ordo that has no altar girls, no EMHCs and uses the altar rail, and I am happy, though I still prefer the TLM.

I will say this in favor of those who attend SSPX masses, while many may have a problem with authority and disciplines, they do not have a problem with established doctrines or dogmas, hance many large familes in SSPX parishes. It is a contrast to many suburban parishes where many “pillars” of the parish may hold views that are opposed to church teachings on core doctrines and dogmas. Not saying all mainstream parishes are like this, but many of them are.

DavidJoseph:

Yesterday after Mass at my FSSP-run parish, I got in a discussion with a fellow parishioner that seemed to get slightly heated. This woman is a false traditionalist (a more appropriate phrase than “radical traditionalist,” IMO). And when I say "radical traditionalist, “false traditionalist,” etc., I mean those who think it’s ok to disobey and ignore Vatican II, think the Novus Ordo Mass (even the most reverent ones) are sacrilegious, consider the SSPX and “independent” priests to be living saints, etc.

I don’t understand what someone like her is doing at an indult Mass rather than an independent or SSPX Mass (and there IS an SSPX chapel in the area). I mean, from what I’ve heard most false traditionalists hate the indult Mass and those who celebrate it, claiming they’re a group of sell-outs. Why? Because they accept Vatican II, are totally loyal to the Magisterium, and accept the validity of the Novus Ordo Mass!

Just needed to rant a little here … hope y’all don’t mind.

 

[ThomasMore1535]

JNB:

I am far from being a fan of the way the SSPX is now, especially since Rome gave it an opportunity to reconcile in 2001, but that said, it will be up to future generations to judge what Abp. Lefebvre did in 1988, ironically if the SSPX took up Romes offer in 2001, it would have in effect reconciled Lefebvres actions in 1988, but that is another subject.

As for those who attend SSPX chapels themselves, dont paint with such a broad brush. Yes some are radical traditionalists that even say the chair of Peter is vacant, some just simpily want the mass and attend SSPX chapels for lack of an indult TLM, much less a revernt Novus Ordo. As for me, get me a Novus Ordo that has no altar girls, no EMHCs and uses the altar rail, and I am happy, though I still prefer the TLM.

I will say this in favor of those who attend SSPX masses, while many may have a problem with authority and disciplines, they do not have a problem with established doctrines or dogmas, hance many large familes in SSPX parishes. It is a contrast to many suburban parishes where many “pillars” of the parish may hold views that are opposed to church teachings on core doctrines and dogmas. Not saying all mainstream parishes are like this, but many of them are.

Fair enough, it is true that they adhere to many truths of the Church, perhaps even moreso than many parishes in union with the Church, but of course this does not change the fact that they are in open schism. And we are, of course, to look at what is holy and true in every religion/schismatic organization. Nevertheless, the fact is that this cannot mean that one should ignore that all of their good, etc., is for nought without the Rock of the Church, the Successor to St. Peter.

It is true that we cannot judge any of them, and we must pray for them. And I am sure that there are many sincere people who go to SSPX simply because they want the old mass. But this does not change the fact that many of them have said horrible things about the Council, and about every Holy Father since Bl. John XXIII (and I’m sure that they are infuriated to hear John XXIII referred to as “Blessed,” but as someone who loves the old mass and the Church, I am proud and honored to call him “Blessed” and invoke his intercession on a daily basis!). But of course we must not have malice towards them. We must pray for them.

 

[Chris_in_Mich]

DavidJoseph:

Yesterday after Mass at my FSSP-run parish, I got in a discussion with a fellow parishioner that seemed to get slightly heated. This woman is a false traditionalist (a more appropriate phrase than “radical traditionalist,” IMO). And when I say "radical traditionalist, “false traditionalist,” etc., I mean those who think it’s ok to disobey and ignore Vatican II, think the Novus Ordo Mass (even the most reverent ones) are sacrilegious, consider the SSPX and “independent” priests to be living saints, etc.

Your behavior lacks charity, perhaps your name calling contributed to the heat in this discussion. You offer no specifics about any of this discussion, instead you choose to label and dismiss group of people. Is this a good way to work with converts? Or those who may be struggling to remain in communion with Rome? What parts of Vatican II does this woman disobey and ignore?

DavidJoseph:

I don’t understand what someone like her is doing at an indult Mass rather than an independent or SSPX Mass (and there IS an SSPX chapel in the area). I mean, from what I’ve heard most false traditionalists hate the indult Mass and those who celebrate it, claiming they’re a group of sell-outs. Why? Because they accept Vatican II, are totally loyal to the Magisterium, and accept the validity of the Novus Ordo Mass!.

So rather than ask this woman with whom you had this discussion any of these questions, you post them rhetorically on this board then answer them with what you’ve “heard” about people you believe are like minded, do you think that’s fair? You had a chance to ask these questions first hand and you didn’t, now you’re going to put words in this woman’s mouth. Do you think it’s a good idea to suggest that people whom you’ve labeled with your new term start attending an SSPX chapel? Our current Pope and last Pope, have attempted a reconciliation. The FSSP has played a role in providing those that prefer the old rite to remain in communion with Rome, and here you are suggesting that some ought to leave and go elsewhere.

 

[Chris_in_Mich]

GoLatin:

The SSPX counsels its adherents not to go to the Indult Mass, since the Indult means that proper authority(meaning a Bishop in FULL COMMUNION with Rome has given permission for the Mass.

Yet some SSPX adherents will sometimes go to an Indult Mass on occasion! How hypocritical!

So instead of trying to bring these people into full communion with Rome you call them hypocrits. Many converts to Catholicism began by only occaionally going to a Catholic church, perhaps these SSPXers you’re seeing are on that same path.

 

[DavidJoseph]

Chris in Mich:

Your behavior lacks charity, perhaps your name calling contributed to the heat in this discussion. You offer no specifics about any of this discussion, instead you choose to label and dismiss group of people. Is this a good way to work with converts? Or those who may be struggling to remain in communion with Rome? What parts of Vatican II does this woman disobey and ignore?

You’re really making a lot of assumptions, which isn’t all that charitable of YOU. First of all, I NEVER called anyone any names in my conversation with her. Second, I now refer to her as a false traditionalist because that is what she is. It’s just calling a spade a spade. But if you must know what the conversation was about, several different points were brought up (which she initiated). It was SHE who defended Archbishop Lefebvre, called the Novus Ordo Mass an “abomination,” said that we should totally ignore Vatican II, etc. She said all of those things – heard 'em with my own ears!

According to your logic, we might as well not even complain about dealing with liberal-minded cafeteria Catholics (the kind who advocate contraception, women priests, etc.) on here. And a lot of people on here do have to deal with them! But how could hearing about less-than-orthodox Catholics be bad for converts? They need to know that such “Catholics” are out there so that they can be strong enough in their faith to avoid being ensnared by their heresies!

So rather than ask this woman with whom you had this discussion any of these questions, you post them rhetorically on this board then answer them with what you’ve “heard” about people you believe are like minded, do you think that’s fair? You had a chance to ask these questions first hand and you didn’t, now you’re going to put words in this woman’s mouth. Do you think it’s a good idea to suggest that people whom you’ve labeled with your new term start attending an SSPX chapel? Our current Pope and last Pope, have attempted a reconciliation. The FSSP has played a role in providing those that prefer the old rite to remain in communion with

Rome, and here you are suggesting that some ought to leave and go elsewhere.

Dude, I have read these things with my own eyes and heard them with my own ears. So often I’ve heard false traditionalists refer to the indult Mass as the “insult” Mass. Their own words tell on them! And they’ve actually come right out and said that indult priests and attendees are sell-outs! And yet you assume that I’m making rash judgments. You, sir, are the one making rash judgments by assuming that I’m making rash judgments!

And as for attending an SSPX chapel, it’s only honest that people like that be humble enough to admit they don’t believe as Catholics and leave the Church. Catholics who advocate contraception, gay marriage, abortion, women priests, etc. ought to be honest enough to become Protestant if they have no intention of renouncing such positions and repenting of holding them. Thus, false traditionalists who attend indult Masses yet who refuse to accept Vatican II or the Novus Ordo Mass ought to be honest enough to worship at SSPX chapels, independent chapels, or other places that would have all the Tridentine Masses they like with none of the loyalty to the pope or Vatican II that comes with indult Masses.

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

With regards to people purchasing from the SSPX publishing house, maybe they just don’t know others are available? You can get the Roman Missal, the Douay Rheims, etc. all from baroniuspress.com with an imprimatur, so you know it’s licit.

 

[GoLatin]

Semper Fi:

With regards to people purchasing from the SSPX publishing house, maybe they just don’t know others are available? You can get the Roman Missal, the Douay Rheims, etc. all from baroniuspress.com with an imprimatur, so you know it’s licit.

Yes, Semper Fi, there are a number of legitimate missals out there. The one published by Baronius Press, is, I believe, the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Peter Missal.

There are also the Saint Andrew Daily Missal, and the Father Lasance Missal, but the Fraternity Missal is probably your best bet. The Imprimatur is from Bishop Fabian(“no altar girls in my Diocese” ) Bruskewitz of Lincoln, Nebraska. I hope to someday obtain the Fraternity Missal. I have the Father Lasance Missal at present. Go to www.fssp.com, and you can order the Fraternity Missal. You could also ask a local bookstore if they could order it for you.

It is rather sad that traditionalists get the Angelus Press missal, when there are “loyal” missals available.

An interesting note on the Angelus Press missal:

I noticed on the Angelus Press Internet site, that in the listing for the missal, they had some “endorsements” from several Priests in communion with Rome, including three from the FSSP!:bigyikes: I contacted the FSSP, and asked what was going on. Why were these Priests seen to be endorsing this missal?

The Fraternity got back to me, and said that the SSPX “baited” the Fraternity Priests, by sending each Fraternity Priest a copy of the SSPX missal. These Priests, wanting to be grateful, wrote back a note of thanks, and the SSPX used that on the Internet.

The Priests were told “Do you realise what you did?” and the Priests were cautioned not to do that again.

 

[GoLatin]

A continuation of the above post:

Again, it is truly sad that traditionalists order materials from Angelus Press, just because they think that such material are somehow of better quality.

The quality of the loyal materials is definitely good enough, and people should only buy them.

There is a small Catholic bookstore near me, and it has many excellent(and loyal) products, including several acceptable missals. However, it also carries publications from Angelus Press, including their missal.

This bookstore does NOT carry the FSSP Missal. The bookstore claims that they carry products that there is a demand for.

Maybe if I promise to buy at least one copy of the FSSP Missal, then they will carry it?

What should I do about this bookstore carrying materials from Angelus Press?

 

[GoLatin]

DavidJoseph:

Yesterday after Mass at my FSSP-run parish, I got in a discussion with a fellow parishioner that seemed to get slightly heated. This woman is a false traditionalist (a more appropriate phrase than “radical traditionalist,” IMO). And when I say "radical traditionalist, “false traditionalist,” etc., I mean those who think it’s ok to disobey and ignore Vatican II, think the Novus Ordo Mass (even the most reverent ones) are sacrilegious, consider the SSPX and “independent” priests to be living saints, etc.

I don’t understand what someone like her is doing at an indult Mass rather than an independent or SSPX Mass (and there IS an SSPX chapel in the area). I mean, from what I’ve heard most false traditionalists hate the indult Mass and those who celebrate it, claiming they’re a group of sell-outs. Why? Because they accept Vatican II, are totally loyal to the Magisterium, and accept the validity of the Novus Ordo Mass!

Just needed to rant a little here … hope y’all don’t mind.

I have met people who will travel hours each way to get to an SSPX Mass, even though there are approved Masses closer.

What do you say to someone who does this, despite there being a Tridentine Mass probably no more then 20 MINUTES from their house?

Please note: This nearby Indult Mass is no longer held, but there are still closer, and more loyal, options than the SSPX!

 

[Dropper]

GoLatin:

Yes, Semper Fi, there are a number of legitimate missals out there. The one published by Baronius Press, is, I believe, the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Peter Missal.

What’s illegitmate about the Angelus missal? It’s a great missal. I use it quite regularly. I also use the Baronius missal. They are both good quality missals. Actually they are basically the same missal.

The Imprimatur is from Bishop Fabian(“no altar girls in my Diocese” ) Bruskewitz of Lincoln, Nebraska. I hope to someday obtain the Fraternity Missal.

He’s also Bishop Fabian (“polka Masses are okay, even endorsed in my Diocese” ) Bruskewitz, unfortunately.

Interesting points about the FSSP and the Angelus missal. I know they (the FSSP) sell the Angelus missal at our parish book store. I also personally know an FSSP priest who very much likes the Angelus missal.

I really wish people would wake up and realize that the SSPX are allies in the fight for Tradition. I am not saying they are perfect. I see problems with them, hence the reason I attend only indult Masses, but there seem to be far more problems coming from priests and bishops who are supposedly in full communion with the Vatican.

 

[DavidJoseph]

Dropper:

He’s also Bishop Fabian (“polka Masses are okay, even endorsed in my Diocese” ) Bruskewitz, unfortunately.

Proof please?

Dropper:

I really wish people would wake up and realize that the SSPX are allies in the fight for Tradition. I am not saying they are perfect. I see problems with them, hence the reason I attend only indult Masses, but there seem to be far more problems coming from priests and bishops who are supposedly in full communion with the Vatican.

I find it hard to consider the SSPX to be allies considering they’re schismatic and refuse to accept Vatican II or the Novus Ordo Mass.

 

[ThomasMore1535]

Dropper:

I really wish people would wake up and realize that the SSPX are allies in the fight for Tradition. I am not saying they are perfect. I see problems with them, hence the reason I attend only indult Masses, but there seem to be far more problems coming from priests and bishops who are supposedly in full communion with the Vatican.

No, they are not out allies in the fight for Tradition, because they interpret Tradition according to their own personal beliefs instead of submitting to the judgments of the Vicar of Christ. Thus, they are no different from Protestants. They may appear to be very traditional, but in fact are not. The fact is that they love the old mass more than they love God Himself, because they are willing to leave God’s Church for one form of the mass. Thus, they have made a false God out of the Tridentine Mass. They are not our allies for Tradition, not when they insist that Vatican II is “modernist,” because Vatican II is an authentic teaching of the Church’s magisterium. In making these claims about the Council, they have bought into the deceit of the liberals who claim that the Council changed everything in the Church, when in fact it did not. They are not our allies for Tradition when they claim that Bl. John XXIII was a Freemason and resort to conspiracy theories with no evidence. They are not our allies when they act like hyppocrites in criticizing the Church’s Declaration on Religious Freedom when in fact Lefebvre himself signed that document.

They are no different from Protestants. “Me, me, me, me, my interpretation of Tradition is right and the Pope is wrong.” That’s just what Luther said.

We must pray for them, and love them, but not for one moment think that they are our allies. Not when they continue to insult the Holy Father and say false things about him and about the new mass.

 

[Dropper]

DavidJoseph:

Proof please?

Here’s a link to a bulletin of a parish in lincoln where the polka Mass is advertised. There are other examples, one just has to google it…

I find it hard to consider the SSPX to be allies considering they’re schismatic and refuse to accept Vatican II or the Novus Ordo Mass.

There are Cardinals who would disagree with you on the schismatic part. And as far as accepting Vatican II, they accept Vatican II as interpeted in the light of Tradition. And also, as far as I know, they also accept that the NO is valid.

 

[Joysong]

Dropper,

Re: There are Cardinals who would disagree with you on the schismatic part.

You have proof of this? Are we to accept it as truth because you posted this, or may we have the names of these Cardinals?