False witness against God......?

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would you consider to be a false witness against God, when His Word are being misenterpreted everywhere? is it important to God that the people be tought the Truth? if it is not the Truth then it mus be a lie, correct?

would you consider a serious sin against God when a person misenterpret His Word and teach others wrong?

does God hate lies? is it considered a lie when the Word of God is being misenterpreted?

do you think that God is angry with people because they are misenterpreting His Word?

does God care if we know the Truth or not?

how important is it for God his Word? is it important at all?

**
“I should not believe the Gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church.”
Saint Augustine (354-430), Against the Letter of Mani, 5,6, 397 A.D… **
 
Of course the truth is of paramount importance, and God wants us all to learn and know the truth. The bible says that Jesus’ words are spirit and life.

But any act is a sin only if the person committing the act knows that it is wrong but freely chooses to do it anyway. A mistake can not be a sin. If a person was raised with false teaching and believes that teaching to be good and correct, then it is not a sin for him to teach it to others. It is error, but not sin.
 
I agree. but if the Church still here and continue to teach the Truth to all, and they still refuse to believe and continue in their wrong, arent they acountable for refusing to believe?
 
=wisdomseeker;6992042]would you consider to be a false witness against God, when His Word are being misenterpreted everywhere? is it important to God that the people be tought the Truth? if it is not the Truth then it mus be a lie, correct?
I see a distinction between “lie” and misunderstanding or misinterpretation. That distinction is intent. A lie is an act of intentionally trying to deceive.
When one of my students offers an answer to a math problem that is incorrect, I do not accuse him/her of lying. When one of my students tells me he did his homework, and I come to find out he didn’t, that is a lie, because there was an intent to deceive.
would you consider a serious sin against God when a person misenterpret His Word and teach others wrong?
No, unless there was intent.
does God hate lies? is it considered a lie when the Word of God is being misenterpreted?
No, if it is a simple misinterpretation. I do not consider those Christians who do not discern the real presence liars. Wrong, yes. Liars, no.
do you think that God is angry with people because they are misenterpreting His Word?
ISTM God is more saddened by our sin, than mad.
does God care if we know the Truth or not?
Yes.
how important is it for God his Word? is it important at all?
Very, just like it is very important to Him that we obey His commands. He also sent His son because we do a lousy job of obeying His commands.

Jon

**
“I should not believe the Gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church.”
Saint Augustine (354-430), Against the Letter of Mani, 5,6, 397 A.D… **
 
I see a distinction between “lie” and misunderstanding or misinterpretation. That distinction is intent. A lie is an act of intentionally trying to deceive.
When one of my students offers an answer to a math problem that is incorrect, I do not accuse him/her of lying. When one of my students tells me he did his homework, and I come to find out he didn’t, that is a lie, because there was an intent to deceive.

No, unless there was intent.
No, if it is a simple misinterpretation. I do not consider those Christians who do not discern the real presence liars. Wrong, yes. Liars, no.

ISTM God is more saddened by our sin, than mad.

Yes.
Very, just like it is very important to Him that we obey His commands. He also sent His son because we do a lousy job of obeying His commands.

Jon

**
“I should not believe the Gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church.”
Saint Augustine (354-430), Against the Letter of Mani, 5,6, 397 A.D… **
agree. but if the Church still here and continue to teach the Truth to all, and they still refuse to believe and continue in their wrong, arent they acountable for refusing to believe?
 
=wisdomseeker;6997259]
agree. but if the Church still here and continue to teach the Truth to all, and they still refuse to believe and continue in their wrong, arent they acountable for refusing to believe?
Perhaps accountable, but only to God, and not lying. In the areas where Lutherans and Catholics disagree, I certainly do not consider what the Catholic Church teaches to be a lie, because I do not believe the is an intent to deceive. I look to Luther’s commentary on the eighth commandment on this:

“We should fear and love God that we may not deceitfully belie, betray, slander, or defame our neighbor, but defend him, [think and] speak well of him, and put the best construction on everything.”

I trust that you in your faith are sincere in what you believe, that you believe the Catholic Church rightly teaches the catholic faith, as I believe the Lutheran Church does. If I call you a liar for what you honestly believe, then I am breaking the 8th commandment. And whichever of us is wrong, I also trust God’s mercy to forgive our sins.

Jon
 
I agree. but if the Church still here and continue to teach the Truth to all, and they still refuse to believe and continue in their wrong, arent they acountable for refusing to believe?
Only God knows the heart of a man. It is not for us to decide. It is very possible that even though you explain the truth as clearly as you can, the other person never fully understands it as you do.
 
Perhaps accountable, but only to God, and not lying. In the areas where Lutherans and Catholics disagree, I certainly do not consider what the Catholic Church teaches to be a lie, because I do not believe the is an intent to deceive. I look to Luther’s commentary on the eighth commandment on this:

“We should fear and love God that we may not deceitfully belie, betray, slander, or defame our neighbor, but defend him, [think and] speak well of him, and put the best construction on everything.”

I trust that you in your faith are sincere in what you believe, that you believe the Catholic Church rightly teaches the catholic faith, as I believe the Lutheran Church does. If I call you a liar for what you honestly believe, then I am breaking the 8th commandment. And whichever of us is wrong, I also trust God’s mercy to forgive our sins.

Jon
you quoted this from ML, but did not luther slammed the CC and went around slamming the pope?

so, basically you are saying that a person dosnt have to believe what the CC teaches, they will be justified somehow.
 
Only God knows the heart of a man. It is not for us to decide. It is very possible that even though you explain the truth as clearly as you can, the other person never fully understands it as you do.
ok. so, what Jesus said, if they hear you, they hear me and my Father in Heaven…
doesnt really mean that?
 
ok. so, what Jesus said, if they hear you, they hear me and my Father in Heaven…
doesnt really mean that?
If they don’t “hear you” due to some physical, psychological or cultural defect, how will Jesus judge that?
 
If they don’t “hear you” due to some physical, psychological or cultural defect, how will Jesus judge that?
i am not talking about people who cannot hear or kneel or have psychological problem.

why do you even mention that anyway?

is this another form of trying to justify error?

it seems that everyone is trying to run from the Truth and seek to justify every error.

if Jesus did not justify those who reject Him then, why do we try to justify those today?

St. Thomas says that the death penalty is always an act of love for the souls of the condemned, because if he repents, has paid for his crime on earth, and if does not repent, suffer less in hell because he lived less time in sin. St. Thomas teaches that in the Summa Theologica II-IIae, Q. 25 a. 6, ad 2
 
i am not talking about people who cannot hear or kneel or have psychological problem.

why do you even mention that anyway?

is this another form of trying to justify error?

it seems that everyone is trying to run from the Truth and seek to justify every error.

if Jesus did not justify those who reject Him then, why do we try to justify those today?

St. Thomas says that the death penalty is always an act of love for the souls of the condemned, because if he repents, has paid for his crime on earth, and if does not repent, suffer less in hell because he lived less time in sin. St. Thomas teaches that in the Summa Theologica II-IIae, Q. 25 a. 6, ad 2
Okay, so what is your point? Do you believe that everyone who does not accept your religious beliefs is condemned to hell?

Please stop hiding behind conjectures and state what you believe. Then we can discuss. The way you are posting now seems very dishonest and indicates that you do not know what you believe, only that you hate some people.
 
you quoted this from ML, but did not luther slammed the CC and went around slamming the pope?
How does your comment in any way relate to our conversation? The CC did a pretty extensive job of slamming Luther, too, but that is irrelevent to our conversation, and that happened 500 years ago!!! Is there something in that quote from Luther that you object to? Does my intension to not lower myself (and not break the eighth commandment) by calling my Christian siblings in the Catholic Church liars, based on what I believe, supported by this quote, seem offensive?
so, basically you are saying that a person dosnt have to believe what the CC teaches, they will be justified somehow
Yes, and the “somehow” is by the grace of God, just like it is for you as a Catholic. And yes, I believe that Catholic are justified by grace alone through faith in Jesus Christ.

I’m not one of those who denies the salvation of Catholics. I’m not one of those who views Catholics as “not Christian”. I do have a feeling for your views, though, that as a triumphalist, but I am always willing to charitable discuss things with you.

Do you believe that only Catholics can be justified? :confused:
Do you believe that I am a liar?
Jon
 
I think bearing false witness is a very serious sin, especially if done in the context of failing to keep a solemn promise to someone or an instutution (i.e. if you have sworn an oath to be admitted to an important office or position in society or a business), to fail to honour a just contract, or you bear false witness in the context of the justice system. I would regard the last example to be a mortal sin in many cases, particularly if you lie to pervert the course of justice (i.e. to exonerate someone who is guilty or to convict someone who is innocent) or you are a lawyer and you deliberately mislead the court. The seriousness of misleading the court or perjury are reflected in the fact lawyers are regularly disbarred and others punished for contempt with prison and heavy fines for these offences, and perjurers are liable for long terms in prison.
 
'It is a mistake to suppose that a formal doubt is necessary to render one’s ignorance of his duty voluntary and culpable; it is enough that there be sufficient reason for doubting, though from his unjust prejudices, obstinacy, pride, or other evil dispositions of the heart, he hinder these reasons from exciting a formal doubt in his mind. Saul had no doubt when he offered sacrifice before the prophet Samuel came; on the contrary, he was persuaded that he had the strongest reasons for doing so, yet he was condemned for that very action, and himself and his family rejected by Almighty God. The Jews believed that they were acting well when they put our Savior to death; nay, their high priest declared in full council that it was expedient for the good and safety of the nation that they should do so. They were grossly mistaken, indeed, and sadly ignorant of their duty; but their ignorance was culpable, and they were severely condemned for what they did, though it was done in ignorance. And indeed all who act from a false and erroneous conscience are highly blamable for having such a conscience, though they have never entertained any formal doubt. Nay, their not having such a doubt when they have just and solid grounds for doubting, rather renders them the more guilty, because it shows greater corruption of the heart, greater depravity of disposition. A person brought, up in a false faith which the Scripture calls sects of perdition, doctrines of devils, perverse things, lies, and hypocrisy ----- and who has heard of the True Church of Christ, which condemns all these sects, and sees their divisions and dissensions has always before his eyes the strongest reason to doubt the safety of his own state.

If he make any examination with sincere dispositions of heart, he must be convinced that he is in the wrong; and the more he examines, the more clearly will he see it, ----- for this plain reason, that it is simply impossible that false doctrine, lies, and hypocrisy should ever be supported by solid arguments sufficient to satisfy a reasonable person, who sincerely seeks the truth, and begs light from God to direct him in the search. Hence, if such a person never doubts, but goes on, as is supposed, bona fide, in his own way, notwithstanding the strong grounds of doubt which he daily has before his eyes, this evidently shows either that he is supinely negligent in the concerns of his soul, or that his heart is totally blinded by passion and prejudice.

There were many such persons among the Jews and heathens in the time of the Apostles, who notwithstanding the splendid light of truth which these holy preachers everywhere displayed, and which was the most powerful reason for leading them to doubt of their superstitions, were so far from having such doubts, that they thought by killing the Apostles they did God a service. Whence did this arise? St. Paul himself informs us: “We renounce,” says he, “the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor adulterating the Word of God, but, by manifestation of the truth, commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.” Here he describes the strange light of the truth which he preached; yet this light was hidden to great numbers, and he immediately gives the reason: “And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost; in whom the God of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, Who is the image of God, should not shine upon them,” [2 Cor. 4: 2].

Behold the real cause of their incredulity: they are so enslaved to the things of this world by the depravity of their heart, and the devil so blinds them that they cannot see the light; but ignorance arising from such depraved dispositions is a guilty, a voluntary ignorance and therefore never can excuse them. In like manner, a Jew’s conscience tells him that he may lawfully and meritoriously blaspheme Jesus Christ, and approve the conduct of his forefathers in putting Him to death upon a tree. Will such blasphemy save him, because it is according to the dictates of his conscience? The Holy Ghost by the mouth of St. Paul says, “If any man love not our Lord Jesus Christ, let him be anathema,” that is, “accursed,” [1 Cor. 16: 22]. A Mahometan is taught by his conscience that it would be a crime to believe in Jesus Christ, and not believe in Mahomet; will this impious conscience save him? The Scripture assures us that “there is no other name given to men under Heaven by which we can be saved,” but the name of Jesus only; and “he that believeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remaineth on him.” All the various sects which have been separated from the True Church, in every age, have uniformly calumniated and slandered her, speaking evil of the truth professed by her, believing in their conscience that this was not only lawful, but highly meritorious. Will calumnies and slanders against the Church of Jesus Christ save them because of their approving conscience? The Word of God declares, “That the nation and the kingdom that will not serve her shall perish” and “there shall be lying teachers who shall bring in damnable heresies, bringing upon themselves swift destruction, through how the way of truth shall be evil spoken of,” [2 Pet. 2: 1]. In all these, and similar cases, their conscience is their greatest crime, and shows to what a height of impiety conscience and reason can lead us, when under the influence of pride, passion, prejudice, and self-love. Conscience and reason, therefore, can never be safe guides to salvation, unless directed by the sacred light of revealed truth.
  • Bishop George Hay, ‘The Sincere Christian’
 
I think those who love the truth diligently seek it their whole lives, and those who seek find.

To love the truth is to love God. To not love the truth is to not love the grace of God, and God.

The grace of God in the interior man always supports the good and moral and defies the sin and immoral. The natural law always too.

When an objective sin is committed – we must remember this.

People are very eager to privately interpret scripture themselves… rather than rely on the authorities. To rely on the holiest authorities and their consensus is the correct method.
 
'It is a mistake to suppose that a formal doubt is necessary to render one’s ignorance of his duty voluntary and culpable; it is enough that there be sufficient reason for doubting, though from his unjust prejudices, obstinacy, pride, or other evil dispositions of the heart, he hinder these reasons from exciting a formal doubt in his mind. Saul had no doubt when he offered sacrifice before the prophet Samuel came; on the contrary, he was persuaded that he had the strongest reasons for doing so, yet he was condemned for that very action, and himself and his family rejected by Almighty God. The Jews believed that they were acting well when they put our Savior to death; nay, their high priest declared in full council that it was expedient for the good and safety of the nation that they should do so. They were grossly mistaken, indeed, and sadly ignorant of their duty; but their ignorance was culpable, and they were severely condemned for what they did, though it was done in ignorance. And indeed all who act from a false and erroneous conscience are highly blamable for having such a conscience, though they have never entertained any formal doubt. Nay, their not having such a doubt when they have just and solid grounds for doubting, rather renders them the more guilty, because it shows greater corruption of the heart, greater depravity of disposition. A person brought, up in a false faith which the Scripture calls sects of perdition, doctrines of devils, perverse things, lies, and hypocrisy ----- and who has heard of the True Church of Christ, which condemns all these sects, and sees their divisions and dissensions has always before his eyes the strongest reason to doubt the safety of his own state.

Behold the real cause of their incredulity: they are so enslaved to the things of this world by the depravity of their heart, and the devil so blinds them that they cannot see the light; but ignorance arising from such depraved dispositions is a guilty, a voluntary ignorance and therefore never can excuse them. In like manner, a Jew’s conscience tells him that he may lawfully and meritoriously blaspheme Jesus Christ, and approve the conduct of his forefathers in putting Him to death upon a tree. Will such blasphemy save him, because it is according to the dictates of his conscience? The Holy Ghost by the mouth of St. Paul says, “If any man love not our Lord Jesus Christ, let him be anathema,” that is, “accursed,” [1 Cor. 16: 22]. A Mahometan is taught by his conscience that it would be a crime to believe in Jesus Christ, and not believe in Mahomet; will this impious conscience save him? The Scripture assures us that “there is no other name given to men under Heaven by which we can be saved,” but the name of Jesus only; and “he that believeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remaineth on him.” All the various sects which have been separated from the True Church, in every age, have uniformly calumniated and slandered her, speaking evil of the truth professed by her, believing in their conscience that this was not only lawful, but highly meritorious. Will calumnies and slanders against the Church of Jesus Christ save them because of their approving conscience? The Word of God declares, “That the nation and the kingdom that will not serve her shall perish” and “there shall be lying teachers who shall bring in damnable heresies, bringing upon themselves swift destruction, through how the way of truth shall be evil spoken of,” [2 Pet. 2: 1]. In all these, and similar cases, their conscience is their greatest crime, and shows to what a height of impiety conscience and reason can lead us, when under the influence of pride, passion, prejudice, and self-love. Conscience and reason, therefore, can never be safe guides to salvation, unless directed by the sacred light of revealed truth.
  • Bishop George Hay, ‘The Sincere Christian’
thank you Shin. this is clear and ambiguous as it should be. it seeks not to justify the wrong, therefore, the propagation of error. that is what i am looking for.
 
I think those who love the truth diligently seek it their whole lives, and those who seek find.

To love the truth is to love God. To not love the truth is to not love the grace of God, and God.

The grace of God in the interior man always supports the good and moral and defies the sin and immoral. The natural law always too.

When an objective sin is committed – we must remember this.

People are very eager to privately interpret scripture themselves… rather than rely on the authorities. To rely on the holiest authorities and their consensus is the correct method.
True. if those in error continue to be justified as ignorant or whatever, the more people will be deceived and the more will be in err. is this pleasing to God? since He died for a Church that she may go on from age to age to teach the Truth. how do you justify those who continue to reject her and the Truth she teaches and still be pleasing to God?
is it not considered false witness when someone distorts what Jesus says and go on teaching others keeping others from knowing the Truth of God through His Church? false means lies, therefore, condemned by God.
 
To blantantly teach what you know is not the will of God, as being the will of God, is a false witness. If you teach/witness to the best of your understanding ( be you Catholic,Lutheran, or one of any other Christian community) you are not lying, you may be wronge, but not a liar. You may even be a Catholic teaching the Catholic faith and if you misunderstand something you will teach it incorrectly. that does not make you a liar.

Also it does neither the person I am talking to nor myself any good when I try to correct them if I just say you are a liar. I must pray and talk in the spirit of the Lord for understand and enlightenment.

A great example is that the divide between Catholic, Orthodox and most Lutheran and Angelicans is a matter of how we understand certain words.
We should be working toward mutual understanding.
 
To blantantly teach what you know is not the will of God, as being the will of God, is a false witness. If you teach/witness to the best of your understanding ( be you Catholic,Lutheran, or one of any other Christian community) you are not lying, you may be wronge, but not a liar. You may even be a Catholic teaching the Catholic faith and if you misunderstand something you will teach it incorrectly. that does not make you a liar.

Also it does neither the person I am talking to nor myself any good when I try to correct them if I just say you are a liar. I must pray and talk in the spirit of the Lord for understand and enlightenment.

A great example is that the divide between Catholic, Orthodox and most Lutheran and Angelicans is a matter of how we understand certain words.
We should be working toward mutual understanding.
Well said, Scott. 👍
And indeed this is the essence of ecumenism; not compromise, not submission, but, as you said, working toward mutual understanding, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. It starts with forgiveness: forgiving each other for what our communions have said about each other in the past.
I have said before, in those times when we find it difficult to take each other’s hand, we should each take the Holy Spirit’s hand and allow Him to guide us together.

Jon
 
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