Family Feud

[chief30]

Hello everyone. I would like to give some background before asking my question. My aunt grew up as a Catholic, left the Church, and has been a part of every Christian church through her life and I believe has finally settled down as non-denominational, however she presents herself as a very radical ‘annoying’ non-denominational person. Every time I had seen/visited with her growing up, we would always get into religious debates/arguments. This was from ages 12 to 16. I’m older now and believe myself to be a bit more educated when it comes to defending the Faith.

The problem is, she is family and i love her dearly, but I know she is going to try to attack. I don’t want her to win. I have no problem defending the Church, but if anyone has any ideas on and questions I can ask her and she most likely wouldn’t be able to answer, please let me know.

Anything about the Pope, or baptism would be best. Anything else would be greatly appreciated.

 

[dcana]

You might try reading Dave Armstrong’s book The Catholic Verses: 95 Bible Passages That Confound Protestants for ideas. I have come to believe that very often the best we can hope to do is to plant seeds that God will in turn nurture and water and that may not sprout and grow fruit for years, even decades. If a person’s heart is not open, which is an action of the Holy Spirit - which also a person must allow to take place - they will be blind to the truth even if it is staring them in the face. Don’t forget to pray for her (and yourself).

God Bless

 

[Apollos]

however she presents herself as a very radical ‘annoying’ non-denominational person

lol

Anything about the Pope, or baptism would be best. Anything else would be greatly appreciated.

1. 
   *]Why are there so many verses that have always made perfect sense to us for centuries, but not to you, like Matthew 16:18? You people fall over yourselves explaining it away, while we accept it as it is.
   *]Baptism of infants is nowhere prohibited in the whole Bible. Why do you people prohibit it? Don’t you people like children?
   *]Why do you delete selected verses and even whole books from the Bible when the Bible itself curses anyone who does so (Revelation 22:19)?
   *]How can you profane the body and blood of Christ if communion is just symbolic (1 Corinthians 11:27)? Because if treating symbols unworthily profanes what they represent, then by the same token, shouldn’t paying respect to a statue of Jesus be an honor to what the statue represents? Yet you hate our statues.
   *]In your version of the Ten Commandments, you split the first commandment into two and then, to keep the number at ten, you blend the ninth and tenth together. Is your hatred of Christian art and of anything that represents holy things so intense that you would go so far as to lump wives together with property? Doesn’t the Bible itself say that we should rightly divide the word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15)?
   *]Why do you people allow divorce when God and Jesus are absolutely against it (Malachi 2:6, Matthew 19:6)? Even Moses allowed it for hardened hearts (Matthew 19:8) - is it because you people’s hearts are hard?
   *]Each and every one of our bishops living today has had hands laid on him for the ministry by another bishop who had hands laid on him for the ministry by someone who had hands laid on him, and so on, all the way back to the disciples of the apostles (1 Timothy 4:14). Who laid hands on your ministers? Or do your ministers come in their own names (John 5:43)?
   *]Why is it that your megachurches are filled with yuppies and revolve around one charismatic personality? Is that how a local church is supposed to work?
   
   …want more?

 

[Lutheranteach]

Or you could just say: “Why do we waste our time doing this? I’m not going to change your mind. You aren’t going to change mine. So instead of wasting precious time arguing let’s actually visit and enjoy one another’s company.”

 

[Paul1961]

Here is where your thoughts derail. "I don’t want her to win."

Or you could just say: “Why do we waste our time doing this? I’m not going to change your mind. You aren’t going to change mine. So instead of wasting precious time arguing let’s actually visit and enjoy one another’s company.”

 

[Desertsailor]

The only thing you can do for her is pray for her. In the end you’ll win.

 

[chief30]

Here is where your thoughts derail. “I don’t want her to win.”

To me its more like a basketball game. she has always been better than me because she has been prepared. Now that I’m more prepared I have a better chance at sinking that three pointer and wining the game.

Or you could just say: “Why do we waste our time doing this? I’m not going to change your mind. You aren’t going to change mine. So instead of wasting precious time arguing let’s actually visit and enjoy one another’s company.”

I agree 100%, but we all know some people don’t like to take no for an answer. I would just like to be prepared. I always see these opportunities as a way to build my knowledge and understanding of the Faith.

Why are there so many verses that have always made perfect sense to us for centuries, but not to you, like Matthew 16:18? You people fall over yourselves explaining it away, while we accept it as it is.
Baptism of infants is nowhere prohibited in the whole Bible. Why do you people prohibit it? Don’t you people like children?
Why do you delete selected verses and even whole books from the Bible when the Bible itself curses anyone who does so (Revelation 22:19)?
How can you profane the body and blood of Christ if communion is just symbolic (1 Corinthians 11:27)? Because if treating symbols unworthily profanes what they represent, then by the same token, shouldn’t paying respect to a statue of Jesus be an honor to what the statue represents? Yet you hate our statues.
In your version of the Ten Commandments, you split the first commandment into two and then, to keep the number at ten, you blend the ninth and tenth together. Is your hatred of Christian art and of anything that represents holy things so intense that you would go so far as to lump wives together with property? Doesn’t the Bible itself say that we should rightly divide the word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15)?
Why do you people allow divorce when God and Jesus are absolutely against it (Malachi 2:6, Matthew 19:6)? Even Moses allowed it for hardened hearts (Matthew 19:8) - is it because you people’s hearts are hard?
Each and every one of our bishops living today has had hands laid on him for the ministry by another bishop who had hands laid on him for the ministry by someone who had hands laid on him, and so on, all the way back to the disciples of the apostles (1 Timothy 4:14). Who laid hands on your ministers? Or do your ministers come in their own names (John 5:43)?
Why is it that your megachurches are filled with yuppies and revolve around one charismatic personality? Is that how a local church is supposed to work?

Exactly what I was looking for. Thank you very much!

You might try reading Dave Armstrong’s book The Catholic Verses: 95 Bible Passages That Confound Protestants for ideas. I have come to believe that very often the best we can hope to do is to plant seeds that God will in turn nurture and water and that may not sprout and grow fruit for years, even decades. If a person’s heart is not open, which is an action of the Holy Spirit - which also a person must allow to take place - they will be blind to the truth even if it is staring them in the face. Don’t forget to pray for her (and yourself).

I fill look today at the libraries for this. Thank you!

 

[Scoobyshme]

Hello everyone. I would like to give some background before asking my question. My aunt grew up as a Catholic, left the Church, and has been a part of every Christian church through her life and I believe has finally settled down as non-denominational, however she presents herself as a very radical ‘annoying’ non-denominational person. Every time I had seen/visited with her growing up, we would always get into religious debates/arguments. This was from ages 12 to 16. I’m older now and believe myself to be a bit more educated when it comes to defending the Faith.

The problem is, she is family and i love her dearly, but I know she is going to try to attack. I don’t want her to win. I have no problem defending the Church, but if anyone has any ideas on and questions I can ask her and she most likely wouldn’t be able to answer, please let me know.

Anything about the Pope, or baptism would be best. Anything else would be greatly appreciated.

Print the document at the following link out and give it to her as “homework:”

catholic-convert.com/wp-content/uploads/QuestionsforBibleChristians.pdf

 

[edjco]

Here’s a few you can use from various sources here on CA and elsewhere:

The Bible

-Would you use as your Old Testament Scripture the same books used by Jesus, the Apostles and the early Church?

-Did you know that Protestant and Catholic scholars agree that the first Christians used the Septuagint, which contained the Deuterocanonical books?

-As Christians, do you think we should follow the Apostles and the early Church and continue to accept these seven books, or, should we use a version later chosen by some, but not all, Jews?

-Did you know that the 1611 version of the King James Bible (a Protestant Bible) contained the Deuterocanonical books, even though they were later removed from Protestant Bibles?

-If the Deuterocanonical books were part of Scripture for the first 1500 years of Christianity, what would justify removing those same books only 500 years ago?

-If your church accepts the Deuterocanonical books (Judith, Tobit, Maccabees I&II, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus [Sirach] and Baruch), given what is written in 2 Maccabees 12:44-46, do you now accept prayers for the dead?

-The Catholic Church chose the canon of the Bible. Was the Church inspired by the Holy Spirit when it decided which books would be included and which omitted?

-Was Martin Luther inspired by the Holy Spirit when he removed seven of those books and parts of Daniel and Esther 1200 years later?

-If you believe in a literalist interpretation of Scripture, how do you explain John chapter 6, where we are told to actually “eat Jesus’ flesh”?

-If everything we need to know as Christians is in the Bible, then where in the Bible does it tell us which books are supposed to be in the Bible?

-Since we know that there were many books around at the time which did and did not make it into the canon of the Bible, is the Table of Contents in your Bible divinely inspired?

Where in the Bible does it say:

-Scripture alone is the sole rule of faith for Christians?
-We are saved or justified by faith alone?
-Baptism is a symbolic gesture that the already saved believer makes to show his commitment to God?
-That every individual, Christian or not, has the right to interpret every single passage of Scripture on their own in order to determine, by their own authority, what is true doctrine and what is false doctrine?
-That you are to have altar calls?
-That you are to meet at your church every Wednesday night?
-Or, that you are to go to church on Sunday?
-That it is ok to disagree on the “non-essential” doctrines as long as you agree on the “essential” doctrines?
-That there is even such a thing as a “non-essential” doctrine, a non-essential part of the Word of God?
Hint: None of those things are in Scripture.

-I bet you love Scripture. Would you feel cheated if there were more books in the Bible than you had been told?

-Did the first-century Christians bring their Bible with them to Church?
If you answer no, and you have to because there was no Bible, then you must admit that “Sola Scriptura”, or the “Bible alone” teaching does not go back to early Christianity. It wasn’t started by Jesus or the Apostles, and it wasn’t practiced by early Christians.
Salvation

• If you believe in “Once Saved, Always Saved”, how can someone who is already saved be found to be unworthy of receiving the Lord’s Supper? (I Cor. 11:27)

-If we are saved by faith alone, do we need to love one another or do we even need to love God to be saved?

-If you have faith, but have not works, can your faith save you? (James 2:14-17)

-If salvation by faith alone is the most central and most important Christian doctrine, then why does the phrase “faith alone” appear only once in all of Scripture, and that is to say that we are not justified by “faith alone”? (James 2:24)

-Is whether or not we have faith God’s sole criteria for judging us worthy of salvation? (Matthew 24:14-30 & 31-46, John 15:1-6, Romans 2:6, Revelation 20:13) Why don’t they say we will be judged by our faith?

-Christ redeemed all men with His death on the cross. In other words, He paid the price for all men’s sins. Yet, not all men are saved. What is the difference between those who are merely redeemed and the subset of that group who are redeemed and saved? Is that something that Jesus did, or is it something each saved individual did?
If it is something that the individual did, isn’t that a “work”?

-Do we have to forgive others in order to have our sins forgiven by God?

(Continued)

 

[edjco]

The Church

-Is your church autonomous? In other words, is there a hierarchy in your church, or is it governed locally? Does your local church answer to a larger body?

-If your church is autonomous, how do you compare that to the “churches” we read about in the New Testament? Didn’t those churches fall under a central authority? Don’t Peter and Paul’s letters to these churches signify that they were under a central leadership?

• Does your church give you guidance on what conditions make you “unworthy” to receive the Lord’s Supper?
  In Scripture we are told that one who eats the flesh or drinks the blood of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. Paul here was speaking to baptized Christians, so it cannot mean that just anyone who is baptized or “saved” can receive the Lord’s Supper.

-Throughout Scripture we are told about “prayer and fasting”. Does your church follow the practice of fasting?

-When a member of your church is sick, do the presbyters of the church pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord as Scripture directs us? (James 5:14)

-If your Pastor began teaching things that the church membership felt were contrary to Scripture, could your church (or church board) vote to have that Pastor removed?

-Would that vote, which would concern a matter of faith or morals, be guided by the Holy Spirit? In other words, is there some guarantee that the congregation would be correct and the Pastor wrong?

-Where in Scripture do you find the practice of a church congregation deciding matters of faith and morals?

-Where in Scripture does it say that a church membership may remove a church leader by popular vote?

-For a Christian, what is the pillar and foundation of truth? Is it the Bible? (1 Timothy 3:15)

-Would you consider your church to be the “pillar and foundation” of truth as described in the Bible?

-Where does it say in the Bible that God’s revelation to men ended with the death of the last Apostle?

-If you feel that God’s revelation did in fact end with the death of the last Apostle, isn’t that a non-Biblical tradition?

-Where in Scripture is the concept of an “invisible church” mentioned?

-As Christians, we share a significant bond, but when Jesus spoke of His church, do you think this “invisible connection” is all that He had in mind?

-Would you have been considered a member of Christ’s Church if you had followed different teachings and leaders not approved by the Apostles, even though you professed belief in Christ?

-If God alone can forgive sins, and we are to confess our sins only to God, and not to men, then why does Matthew say that God gave the authority on earth to forgive sins to “men” (plural)? (Matthew 9:6-8)

-And why does Scripture tell us to confess our sins to one another? (James 5:16)

-And why does Jesus give His disciples the power to forgive or retain sins in the first place? (John 20:23)

-What is your church’s official teaching on the following:

Contraception?
And if your church does not prohibit contraception, why did it change its teaching on a matter of faith or morals?

Embryonic Stem Cell Research?

Euthanasia?

Human Cloning?

Divorce and Remarriage?

Same sex marriage?

Abortion?

Does your church even have an official, documented and universal teaching on these subjects?

If so, does that teaching apply to all churches within your denomination, or just to your local church?

If so, is that teaching binding on all people in your denomination?

Would you say that you consider the early Church to be the model of authentic Christian belief and practice?

-Were those first Christians true Christians even though they didn’t rely on the Bible alone as their source of truth?

-Does the Bible say that there would come a time when we should no longer follow the teaching of the apostles handed on in the Church and look only to written Scripture?

• Or, does it support the validity of the apostolic teaching?

-Is the Holy Spirit able to preserve the oral teaching of the apostles as He has the written word? And if He has, would you want to know it?

-What if I were to tell you that the Holy Spirit has preserved the apostolic teaching in full—oral and written? Would it be worth the effort to investigate and find out? What if, as we see in the New Testament, God has given us more than the Bible alone as a means to know the truth? Would you accept it?

• If you don’t believe the Holy Spirit infallibly guides the Catholic Church, how can you believe the Bible is the word of God? The Catholic Church declared which early writings were Scripture and which were not. Without the Catholic Church there would be no Bible.

-If Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura are the two pillars of Protestantism, why doesn’t either of those terms appear in the Bible?

-Why don’t either of those ideas even appear in the Bible, except to show that they are both wrong? (James 2:24 and 2 Peter 1:20)

 

[rwoehmke]

Or you could just say: “Why do we waste our time doing this? I’m not going to change your mind. You aren’t going to change mine. So instead of wasting precious time arguing let’s actually visit and enjoy one another’s company.”

Maybe she enjoys the debate. Lets her sharpen her tools even if neither one wins.

 

[zz912]

To me its more like a basketball game. she has always been better than me because she has been prepared. Now that I’m more prepared I have a better chance at sinking that three pointer and wining the game.

I have been in your shoes before, and if I could, let me offer some perspective.

First thing first, you must always keep your eye on the goal. And what is that? Jesus did not order us to win arguments. He wants us to spread His word, and bring others to Him in His Church. Winning an argument is not the goal. And it could have the opposite effect, and have the other person completely shut down to your spreading of His message.

Now, there are several other things that you have going against you in your discussions with your aunt. The first of these is the Powdered Butt Syndrome. Once someone has changed your diaper, they will never want to hear your opinion on sex, money, or religion. Her discussions with you are her looking to teach you, she is not interested in learning from you. If you were to “win” an argument, most likely she will view it as simply her needing to get more educated so that she can properly instruct you again. It will be very unlikely she will actually stop and rethink her position.

Another thing you have going against you is Scripture. Remember, prophets are not respected in their homes/hometowns.

What I would recommend is to first, show your Catholic Christianity through your actions. These always speak louder than words.

Second, learn about your Catholic faith and grow in your knowledge. Read and learn as much as you can. If you really want to start being a good influence on her, it will have to be with baby steps. You will have to slowly and over time have many calm and cool conversations with her to discuss the Church and your faith. Otherwise, you will be wasting your time and breath.

God Bless and I hope you grow stronger and learn more about your faith!