family member converting to Greek Orthodox

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sunny422

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I am not sure if this is the right place for this post. 😊

My sister (a Roman Catholic) married a Methodist in a Catholic ceremony. He recently told me that he is converting to being Greek Orthodox because that is the church from the beginning and that the Roman church is the one that split off.

Not knowing much about the Greek Orthodox church I told him I would research more and get back to him so we could have a discussion. How do I respond to the idea that the Greek Orthodox church is the true church and Roman Catholic church is not?

Also what are some the main differences between Greek Orthodox and Roman Catholics.

Any info would be appreciated.
 
sunny422 said:
I am not sure if this is the right place for this post. 😊

My sister (a Roman Catholic) married a Methodist in a Catholic ceremony. He recently told me that he is converting to being Greek Orthodox because that is the church from the beginning and that the Roman church is the one that split off.

Not knowing much about the Greek Orthodox church I told him I would research more and get back to him so we could have a discussion. How do I respond to the idea that the Greek Orthodox church is the true church and Roman Catholic church is not?

Also what are some the main differences between Greek Orthodox and Roman Catholics.

Any info would be appreciated.
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Catholics and Orthodox have much in common. I’ve seen many people here say we share 99% of the same teachings. Whether that number is accurate or not (because I don’t measure such) it is true that we do share a lot of these. We both believe in things like Apostolic Succession, Praying to Saints (Mary included), we believe in the Eucharist and the rest of the sacraments, Holy Trinity, Liturgy etc.

Among the things that are in dispute, perhaps the most important one is our understanding of Papal Primacy. The Filioque is also an issue. Some Orthodox have problem with purgatory some don’t. I guess that sort of depends on what Orthodox you are debating. They do believe that we ought to pray for our departed ones. But they kinda don’t have defined where do people go to in order to purify their sins, or what exactly happens here. There is somewhat flexibility among them in this topic. Again I cannot speak for all Orthodox, I’ll let them clarify this to you here. But if you want to read a little more in detail, go here:

catholic.com/tracts/eastern-orthodoxy
catholic.com/magazine/articles/peter-and-the-eastern-orthodox
catholic.com/magazine/articles/why-i-didn%E2%80%99t-convert-to-eastern-orthodoxy

You have your friend here asking you which is the True Church. I will give you my opinion regarding this (and I do not intend to have some sort of debate with anyone here). The reason why I’m Catholic and not Orthodox, is precisely because in early Christianity, Rome was the Head of Christendom. To me this played a key role in deciding to be either Catholic or Orthodox. To me it wasn’t a matter of who excommunicated who or who did this or that. To me the matter was “Who has authority?”. And I found the Pope’s role as the leader of the entire universal Church very important for the entire Church. And I found this instituted by God himself. For this reason, I am Catholic. I hop my opinion helps you. Please read the articles I provided to you, hopefully those will help you.
 
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Many protestants who discover the importance of apostolic succession, tradition, the larger canon of scripture, sacraments and so forth are drawn to Orthodoxy because they can still not accept the Pope. Methodists, like orthodox, do not accept papal authority however the Orthodox do accept the Pope is the first among equals among the 5 sees. They simply differ on what goes along with that position.

So much closer to the Catholic Faith than Methodism that the Catechism says the following :
838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound “that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist.”
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and
1399 The Eastern churches that are not in full communion with the Catholic Church celebrate the Eucharist with great love. “These Churches, although separated from us, yet possess true sacraments, above all - by apostolic succession - the priesthood and the Eucharist, whereby they are still joined to us in closest intimacy.” A certain communion in sacris, and so in the Eucharist, “given suitable circumstances and the approval of Church authority, is not merely possible but is encouraged.”
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The statement that the orthodox have valid sacraments is important. Your brother in law is moving from Methodism which has not valid sacraments to Orthodox which the Church declares does. While him joining the Catholic faith would be the ideal, moving to Orthodoxy is still better than methodism.

Intercommunion itself is not, as far as I know permitted with the possible rare exception which may or may not.

What your sisters role should be in all this though I have no idea. She should work with a priest.
 
ChrisRedfield47 said:
The reason why I’m Catholic and not Orthodox, is precisely because in early Christianity, Rome was the Head of Christendom. To me this played a key role in deciding to be either Catholic or Orthodox. To me it wasn’t a matter of who excommunicated who or who did this or that. To me the matter was “Who has authority?”. And I found the Pope’s role as the leader of the entire universal Church very important for the entire Church.
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During the first millenium of Christianity, when East and West were united, I saw that although Rome was the preeminent city amongst the Patriarchates, the bishop of Rome (Pope) did not have a particular supremacy
nor was he considered the universal infallible bishop. The development of infallibility and universal supremacy was championed by the ultramontanists and declared doctrine by Pius IX in 1870.

That is one of the reasons I came to the Holy Orthodox Church.
 
Mickey said:
During the first millenium of Christianity, when East and West were united, I saw that although Rome was the preeminent city amongst the Patriarchates, the bishop of Rome (Pope) did not have a particular supremacy
nor was he considered the universal infallible bishop. The development of infallibility and universal supremacy was championed by the ultramontanists and declared doctrine by Pius IX in 1870.

That is one of the reasons I came to the Holy Orthodox Church.
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Look harder ;). In all seriousness though, this is the most oft heard polemic from Orthodox Christians and it is unfounded. To claim that papal supremacy is not even hinted at or implied in the first millenium of Christianity is dishonest. As a Catholic I will be the first to admit that there is room for debate, but there is plenty to make both arguments for and against papal supremacy. I, of course, find the argument for the Petrine office to be more compelling.

There is an additional question that comes to mind whenever I hear the Orthodox claim: What sort of evidence are they looking for? Would they only come to believe in papal infalliblity if they found a statement from an ecumenical council stating “just so everyone is clear, the Bishop of Rome has ultimate jurisdiction over all patriarchates when it comes to matters of doctrine”?

I recommend this blog:
vivificat1.blogspot.com/

It is written by a Roman Catholic who converted to Orthodoxy and then reverted to the RCC. He has a two part post explaining why he returned to Rome.
 
Mickey said:
During the first millenium of Christianity, when East and West were united, I saw that although Rome was the preeminent city amongst the Patriarchates, the bishop of Rome (Pope) did not have a particular supremacy
nor was he considered the universal infallible bishop. The development of infallibility and universal supremacy was championed by the ultramontanists and declared doctrine by Pius IX in 1870.

That is one of the reasons I came to the Holy Orthodox Church.
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Ok, you have your reasons I have mine. I’ll stay in communion with the preeminent city, whom according to Irenaeus, has “Preeminent Authority” and who according to him, “all churches must agree with”. You stay where ever you want.

But, I must say that it is false to just affirm that Papal universal supremacy came out of nowhere from ultramontanists. Plenty of Patriarchs/Saints of the East saw Rome supremacy very well expressed prior to the Schism that went around in 1054.

Sources from the east:
fisheaters.com/easternfathers.html

Needless it is to say how his role is clearly expressed in Scripture. I am not here to debate Papal Supremacy though, just to provide my opinion to the OP. Later.
 
I can well understand why someone would find Orthodoxy more in line with their conscience.

As human beings we all are subject to ego. Any man who is pope included.

Those of us who live in western cultures have to push back against ego, arrogance, all the time. It’s the farthest thing from humility. And anyone who has studied the papacy thru out it’s 2000 year history knows it has not been protected against the human failing of (male) human ego.

I appreciate the idea that Orthodoxy focuses more on the mystery of God and Christ, where Catholicism has this need to define everything. Too much room for error IMO.

If my ancentral background wasn’t Catholicism, I would have decided to communion with the Orthodox in a heart beat. It’s more in line with my conscience far much so Catholicism by a very long shot

 
truthseeker32 said:
There is an additional question that comes to mind whenever I hear the Orthodox claim: What sort of evidence are they looking for?
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Now this is a very interesting question, one I’ve never heard. Unfortunately I think there’s no evidence that will convince the majority of Orthodox of the papacy’s claims. The only evidence that is admissible (or relevant) is the historical, and we’ve seen the same evidence you have (and, honestly in my experience, generally more). To convince the entire Orthodox Church you’d have to bring forward something new (which is rather unlikely) that definitively showed that from the beginning Peter was infallible, regarded as infallible, was the leader of all the apostles to the extent that he had the ability to order them to different places and remove their apostleship, and furthermore that all of these powers were passed on to his successor (who was then considered highest in authority in The Church, even over surviving apostles).

An interesting corollary - what sort of evidence would convince Roman Catholics that the papacy claims are false? That, though, is for a different forum.
 
bitznbitez said:
Many protestants who discover the importance of apostolic succession, tradition, the larger canon of scripture, sacraments and so forth are drawn to Orthodoxy because they can still not accept the Pope.
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More correctly we cannot accept what the Pope has become.

There is more to it than that, but this undeniably leads people to look into Orthodoxy.
 
Mickey said:
Thank you.
There is no Pope in Scripture. 😃
Neither am I. There are plenty of other threads to do that. 😉
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There is a Pope in Scripture, his name is Peter which means Rock 😉
ChrisRedfield47 said:
Ok, you have your reasons I have mine. I’ll stay in communion with the preeminent city, whom according to Irenaeus, has “Preeminent Authority” and who according to him, “all churches must agree with”. You stay where ever you want.

But, I must say that it is false to just affirm that Papal universal supremacy came out of nowhere from ultramontanists. Plenty of Patriarchs/Saints of the East saw Rome supremacy very well expressed prior to the Schism that went around in 1054.

Sources from the east:
fisheaters.com/easternfathers.html

Needless it is to say how his role is clearly expressed in Scripture. I am not here to debate Papal Supremacy though, just to provide my opinion to the OP. Later.
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Great post!!
 
sunny422 said:
How do I respond to the idea that the Greek Orthodox church is the true church and Roman Catholic church is not?

Also what are some the main differences between Greek Orthodox and Roman Catholics.

Any info would be appreciated.
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The 5 Ws: Who, What, When, Where, Why

The WHAT is certain - the Church did split into Catholic & Orthodox.

What is debated is:
  1. WHEN the split occurred - many say 1054 ad & others say the 13th century after the sack of Constantinople
  2. WHO left who - Catholics say Orthodox left the Pope & Orthodox say the Catholics left communion with the other Patriarchs, 4 at the time of the split
What is agreed upon, as far as I know is:
  1. WHY the split occurred - the addition of the filioque clause to the Creed by Rome after Ecumenical Councils had decreed any addition or subtraction to the Creed an anathema - Catholics say the Pope has the authority to do that & Orthodox disagree that anyone has authority above the Ecumenical Councils and disagree with the actual clause itself based on Scripture & Tradition
  2. WHERE - If 1054 ad is accepted as the WHEN, then Agia Sophia Cathedral in Constantinople now Istanbul, Turkey is where the representatives of a Pope who had passed away, unbeknowst to the representatives, laid an excommunication on the altar followed by the Orthodox excommunicating Rome
There are many differences & many similarities.

Some similarities are:
  1. Both have Bishops, Priests, Deacons, Nuns & Monks
  2. Both recognize Saints & Martyrs
  3. Both know that at Divine Liturgy/Mass the bread & wine become the actual Body & Blood of Jesus Christ
  4. Both have a Church Calendar of daily Bible Readings, Feasts, Fasting through out the year
  5. Both believe Mary to be Ever-Virgin & Mother of God & was taken body & soul into heaven
  6. Both believe in the 2nd Coming of Jesus Christ
  7. Both believe in one God that is Trinity: Father, Son & Holy Spirit
A couple differences are:
  1. They believe differently about the jurisdiction of the authority of the Pope
  2. They believe differently about the Ecumenical Councils - Catholics reject canon 28 of one of them & also only practices 2 of the 3 requirements for the dating of Easter
There are many more similarities and differences.

I would venture to add that for your brother-in-law, by becoming Orthodox, in many ways he will become more similar to Catholic than he was in his prior religion.
 
sunny422 said:
How do I respond to the idea that the Greek Orthodox church is the true church and Roman Catholic church is not?

Also what are some the main differences between Greek Orthodox and Roman Catholics.

Any info would be appreciated.
Click to expand...
The 5 Ws: Who, What, When, Where, Why

The WHAT is certain - the Church did split into Catholic & Orthodox.

What is debated is:
  1. WHEN the split occurred - many say 1054 ad & others say the 13th century after the sack of Constantinople
  2. WHO left who - Catholics say Orthodox left the Pope & Orthodox say the Catholics left communion with the other Patriarchs, 4 at the time of the split
What is agreed upon, as far as I know is:
  1. WHY the split occurred - the addition of the filioque clause to the Creed by Rome after Ecumenical Councils had decreed any addition or subtraction to the Creed an anathema - Catholics say the Pope has the authority to do that & Orthodox disagree that anyone has authority above the Ecumenical Councils and disagree with the actual clause itself based on Scripture & Tradition
  2. WHERE - If 1054 ad is accepted as the WHEN, then Agia Sophia Cathedral in Constantinople now Istanbul, Turkey is where the representatives of a Pope who had passed away, unbeknowst to the representatives, laid an excommunication on the altar followed by the Orthodox excommunicating Rome
There are many differences & many similarities.

Some similarities are:
  1. Both have Bishops, Priests, Deacons, Nuns & Monks
  2. Both recognize Saints & Martyrs
  3. Both know that at Divine Liturgy/Mass the bread & wine become the actual Body & Blood of Jesus Christ
  4. Both have a Church Calendar of daily Bible Readings, Feasts, Fasting through out the year
  5. Both believe Mary to be Ever-Virgin & Mother of God & was taken body & soul into heaven
  6. Both believe in the 2nd Coming of Jesus Christ
  7. Both believe in one God that is Trinity: Father, Son & Holy Spirit
A couple differences are:
  1. They believe differently about the jurisdiction of the authority of the Pope
  2. They believe differently about the Ecumenical Councils - Catholics reject canon 28 of one of them & also only practices 2 of the 3 requirements for the dating of Easter
There are many more similarities and differences.

I would venture to add that for your brother-in-law, by becoming Orthodox, in many ways he will become more similar to Catholic than he was in his prior religion.
 
As a matter of historical fact, the first bishop in the church to be addressed by the title “Pope” was St. Heraclas, the 13th archbishop in the See of St. Mark in Alexandria (in a letter from the Bishop of Rome, interestingly). This was in the mid-3rd century, some three centuries before Roman archbishops would start using the title.

It stands to reason, then, that any reading of a Pope or the Papacy as an office into scripture is at best anachronistic. 🙂
 
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