Family size and happiness

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As my husband and I are discussing the size of family we want, we’ve hit a snag. Specifically, I have never met a person who was from a family of three or more kids who has a single nice thing to say about their parents’ choice to have more than two children (exceptions are those with 8 or more years between consecutive children). Most feel that their parents were neglectful or worse and some say they would rather not have existed at all. Most hate some if not all of their siblings. All of them say to maximize children at 2 and that all who do not limit themselves this much commit the crime of child abuse. My husband says this cannot be the case, as the Church recommends large families. Neither of us is from a large family.

I would like answers only from those who grew up in a family of three or more children, without significant age gaps (8 years or more).
  1. How many were in your family, divided by gender, and how many years apart?
  2. Would you have (have you had) more than two children?
  3. How did your parents keep you from hating your siblings?
  4. How did your parents raise more than two and avoid neglecting all of them?
 
Secant said:
  1. How many were in your family, divided by gender, and how many years apart?
  2. Would you have (have you had) more than two children?
  3. How did your parents keep you from hating your siblings?
  4. How did your parents raise more than two and avoid neglecting all of them?
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  1. I’m the oldest of 3. My younger sister is 3.5 years younger than me and my baby brother is almost 9 years younger than me (he was born when I was at the end of 3rd grade).
  2. I have three living children: 12.5, almost 10 and 2, which is roughly the same spacing as my family of origin. However, my family is upper middle class whereas my family of origin was lower middle class when I was growing up, and there were a lot of financial issues.
  3. I don’t think I ever hated my siblings for any length of time, but I was annoyed by my toddler brother when I was a tween. There was a point (11?) at which I just shut and locked my bedroom door and read. That was a relatively brief period, though–within a year or two, baby brother was much less annoying. (Having a room of one’s own presumably makes a big difference in sibling logistics.)
In my family of origin, my parents had their third child and moved us into an unfinished house at more or less the same time, so there was a several year period where my sister and I were essentially left to our own devices, except for chores. There were suddenly LOTS of chores.

In retrospect, I think the combination of 1) way less positive attention and 2) way more demands to do housework was kind of a disaster for my relationship with my mom. As I know now from parenting my own tween girl, tween girls can be both prickly and unpleasant and very much in need of positive attention and loving support.

In my own family, each of the children has their own room and I try to make sure that baby sister never imposes too long on her older siblings, as baby sister can be trying. (I do, however, sometimes ask them to entertain her for 15 minutes at a time.) My big kids are often effusively thankful to me for their baby sister. They’re very proud of her and they beg to go see her in the morning.
  1. I believe my baby brother had a speech delay (untreated) as well as some other issues (he was underweight for a long time and he was still having major potty accidents into kindergarten). Once my brother was born and we moved into the unfinished house, it was more or less the end of all the fun little projects my mom used to do with my sister and me. My dad did more stuff with me, but mostly school work help and taking us to work on farm projects.
I think my two oldest were somewhat neglected for about 1.5 years (the pregnancy that I miscarried, my recovery, my next pregnancy, and then the newborn period). Even after that, I have had to hand off a lot of responsibility for school stuff to my husband and I have had to put the big kids on the honor system, because I simply have not been in a position to inspect things like I used to.

However, the big kids are at a really good small school, they have good relationships with teachers and peers, and we put a lot of effort into camps and extracurriculars.

So, having a third child has been worthwhile, but I don’t Tiger Mom like I used to.

Also, to pay for the third child’s school tuition, I’ll probably have to go back to work. If it weren’t for that need, I would have had the choice of being home longer.
 
Am I to understand that if I cannot have more than two children without having them shar a room, that I am likely to see trouble?
 
Secant said:
As my husband and I are discussing the size of family we want, we’ve hit a snag. Specifically, I have never met a person who was from a family of three or more kids who has a single nice thing to say about their parents’ choice to have more than two children (exceptions are those with 8 or more years between consecutive children). Most feel that their parents were neglectful or worse and some say they would rather not have existed at all. Most hate some if not all of their siblings. All of them say to maximize children at 2 and that all who do not limit themselves this much commit the crime of child abuse. My husband says this cannot be the case, as the Church recommends large families. Neither of us is from a large family.

I would like answers only from those who grew up in a family of three or more children, without significant age gaps (8 years or more).
  1. How many were in your family, divided by gender, and how many years apart?
  2. Would you have (have you had) more than two children?
  3. How did your parents keep you from hating your siblings?
  4. How did your parents raise more than two and avoid neglecting all of them?
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Clarification: the Church does not necessarily “recommend” large families. Rather, she states that couples must prayerfully discern the appropriate size of their family, keeping in mind that marriage is ordered towards having children while also considering the requirement of good stewardship.
  1. I am the oldest of 6 kids. I have a sister who is 18 months younger than me, a brother 23 months (exactly!) younger than her, a brother 26 months younger than my oldest brother (Mom had a miscarriage between the two oldest boys), a brother 21 months younger than the second brother, and a brother almost exactly 2 years younger than the third brother (he was born 13 days before my third brother’s second birthday).
  2. At present, DH and I do not have children together as I am clinically subfertile. He does have a daughter from his first marriage (declared invalid; we are sacramentally married) who lives with us half-time. She is a beautiful 10-year-old girl and DH and I are very close to her. We would like to have at least 2 more children, a boy and a girl, if it is God’s will. We are considering adoption if we are not able to have children within the next couple of years.
  3. I don’t think I ever “hated” my siblings. My parents would remind us that our siblings should be our best friends. I don’t remember a time when I didn’t have a younger sister (at least) so I don’t remember any sibling rivalry. A new baby was always welcomed in our family. Of course, we did sometimes have spats, but all in all we were raised to love each other.
  4. My parents homeschooled us, so all of us were home all the time. Each child who was at least 5 years old had a housework assignment every day, assigned according to age and ability. (Ex. my sister and I had assignments like “clean the bathroom”, our youngest brother had assignments like “sort the plastics cupboard” and “vacuum the stairs”.) My parents, Mom especially, were very careful to set aside special time for each of their children. I remember Mom teaching me how to cook and sew, and Dad lying down on the floor to play “toys” with my youngest brother. We learned early on to entertain ourselves and help to entertain the younger children. My sister and I played together a lot, the boys played together a lot, and we all loved to read. (Going to the library was a big family affair. First, everybody had to gather his books and we would cross them off the print-out. Any missing books would have to be tracked down. Then we’d head off to the library, and we kids would promptly scatter. If we were heading somewhere other than the children’s department (the YA books were kept in the adult section, for example) we’d let our parents know. Mom and Dad helped the little ones choose books. Eventually, everybody would return to the children’s library and congregate there until it was time to leave.) Once I was a little older, I would be asked to baby-sit a couple of times a week while Mom took somebody to a music lesson. For routine baby-sitting, I wasn’t paid, but if it was something extra (for example, Mom and Dad were going out for the evening) my sister and I were paid the going rate for a baby-sitter. I don’t recall ever once feeling that my parents neglected us. They really did their best to recognize and nurture the individual spirit in each of us. Mom did the teaching, and most of our classes were specific to our individual grades, so she spent a lot of time with each of us individually. Dad would often announce on a Saturday that he was going to run errands and if anybody wanted to go with him they could, and then tell Mom he was leaving and who was going so she knew how many kids weren’t in the house 🙂
 
Secant said:
Specifically, I have never met a person who was from a family of three or more kids who has a single nice thing to say about their parents’ choice to have more than two children (exceptions are those with 8 or more years between consecutive children). Most feel that their parents were neglectful or worse and some say they would rather not have existed at all. Most hate some if not all of their siblings. All of them say to maximize children at 2 and that all who do not limit themselves this much commit the crime of child abuse.
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Not a single nice thing to say about their parents? Hate some if not all of their siblings? Having more than two children is the same as criminal child abuse?

The people you have been talking with sound like complete narcissists with serious underlying issues. One might fairly assume that the people you’ve spoken with had parents who were, frankly, disasters whose children would have had emotional issues regardless of how many siblings they had.

Perhaps there are some Catholic families in your parish who you can talk to who have a different experience? Maybe a homeschooler’s group? They often have larger families, with parents who also came from larger families. Most of the homeschooled children I’ve met are the kindest, most well-adjusted kids imaginable.
 
mjs2001 said:
Not a single nice thing to say about their parents? Hate some if not all of their siblings? Having more than two children is the same as criminal child abuse?

The people you have been talking with sound like complete narcissists with serious underlying issues. One might fairly assume that the people you’ve spoken with had parents who were, frankly, disasters whose children would have had emotional issues regardless of how many siblings they had.

Perhaps there are some Catholic families in your parish who you can talk to who have a different experience? Maybe a homeschooler’s group? They often have larger families, with parents who also came from larger families. Most of the homeschooled children I’ve met are the kindest, most well-adjusted kids imaginable.
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+1
 
Mjs2001, I have only met one Catholic family with more than two children. Many of the people I am referring to have left the Church due to it’s encouragement for larger families. We have a dying parish in my community, with very few people under 60. There is also no homeschooling group in my community. That is why I am asking online.
 
Secant said:
Am I to understand that if I cannot have more than two children without having them shar a room, that I am likely to see trouble?
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I think you need some new friends.

Why do you think you need to provide a child with their own room?
 
Not me, but my husband–his parents had 8 children in 10 years. Boy, girl, boy, girl, girl, boy, boy, boy.

My husband was #7 and his closest friends growing up were his older and younger brother (#6 and #8.) Oldest sister was a “second mom” to them all, even though their mother never delegated responsibility of any of the younger children to the older ones except for occasional babysitting duties. Second oldest brother was best man at two of his brothers’ weddings (including ours.) Middle sister is everyone’s best friend. Youngest sister was killed in a car accident at the age of 12; three married siblings wanted to name their daughters after her.

Did they fight, disagree, get on each other’s nerves? Of course!

But to this day, they are all close and have nothing but happy memories of growing up in a large family.
 
My husband comes from a 3 children home. He’s the baby and is about to be 30. They all get along perfectly fine. When we go home they all get along. There has never been any fights in the 6 years of me knowing them. Their mom has even said that they were close growing up and never really fought then. I’m from a blended family. 2 non biological siblings and one biological. While I get along with them, I’m the odd one out and don’t really fit in with the others. I’m the preppy sorority girl and they are more of the nonconforming, atheist/agnostic, hipster type people.

We don’t have any children. I’ve been told by my ob/gyn that it would be extremely difficult for me to conceive. I have always thought that we should take it one kid at a time, though. I don’t like set numbers for children. I think discerning children isn’t a one and done thing and that discernment should happen often. 🙂
 
  1. I was one of five brothers and sisters, though my mother had one miscarriage, so there would have been six.
  2. I would have more than two if I could. Two is kind of boring.
  3. I never hated my siblings. Well, I sometimes hated my older brother when we were pre-schoolers, but not for more than two minutes at a time, and that would be a stretch.
  4. Nobody felt neglected. For that matter nobody felt helicoptered. We played in the yard, we played in our rooms, we roamed around the neighborhood. We walked to the bus stop and rode all around town. We got back in time for dinner.
I’ve met several large families in my parish, six to twelve children. All the children and even the parents seem happy.

For the record I came upon this tidbit in the latest issue of First Things magazine:

“According to a United Nations study of millions of people in 45 societies, 39% of divorces occur when there are no children, 26% when there is one child, 19% when there are 2 children, and less than 3% when there are four or more.”

(The quote appeared in an article entitled “The Myth of Vampire Children.”
 
Secant said:
Many of the people I am referring to have left the Church due to it’s encouragement for larger families.
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Are you in Europe somewhere? Perhaps this is what Pope Francis is witnessing among some Catholics. If there are fundamentalist types trying to impose a standard of large families on others as Catholic… those people have been fed false information. The Church has never imposed such a standard.

I’m the oldest of 4 siblings and apart from all the normal childhood/teenage dynamics ie. my 2 brothers were close in age and competitive when they were young. My sister and I were separated by 6 years (oldest and youngest) and she was always trying to copy me and annoy my friends etc… we have grown to be a happy and loving group of adults. My sister and I talk by phone often and my brothers whose wives are great friends… have a great sibling/friendship.

Perhaps you are talking about siblings who are still in their early pre adult years before we all grow up and mature?
 
I am the middle of three boys, my wife is the oldest of four (1 boy and three girls) and we have four, three living (two girls and two boys) My kids, living, are 18, 21, 24. They all love each other and we have a great time together.

Never once have I experience the premise of the original post. Never. Hate your siblings because there are three of you? Really?
 
I am in the US and speaking to numerous people ranging from 25-65 years old.

By hate, I am referring to a total inability to hold a conversation that does not involve shouting and name calling, a wish that the other didn’t exist, or the all-consuming jealousy that causes one sibling to lie to defame the others in public, even so far as to perjure themselves in court. As I see this in all adults with multiple siblings, I am concerned with what it is that causes this, or more importantly how to avoid it.

As the church fathers and multiple Popes have spoken in encouragement of large families, it could be said that they are at least mildly encouraged by our church.

I understand discernment to be a process, but for one to consider more children, hearing only one-sided opinions about the cruelty of large families from those in such families, discernment cannot logically happen, thus my questions. Thank you all so far, but I welcome more for my gathering of information, especially on questions 3&4.
 
I am surprised at what you have heard. I am second oldest of seven. My older sister is 11 months older, my youngest brother is almost 11 years younger. We get along quite well. For several years, during the farm crisis of the 1980’s, our family survived on an income less than our parish priest was paid. We are all in our 30s and 40s now. When we have family gatherings and someone can’t make it for some reason, sick kids, distance, other obligations, it is noticeable that someone is missing. We each have talents and abilities that differ from the others, so if one of us has questions about certain things we talk to the sibling that is most gifted in that subject.
Like all of us, what kids need is Love. We/they need someone who will give of themselves for our good. If Mom and Dad live for each other, sacrifice their deepest desires for the good of their spouse, and give all of themself to their spouse the kids will love and grow in love. I think sharing a room with siblings is a good way to help the kids realize they are not the only thing important in this world and gives them more opportunities to develop a meaningful relationship with another person.
It surprised me after the birth of our fifth child about 1.5 yrs ago how much the other four needed their baby sister and how much their parents needed her. I would welcome any additional child that God desires to trust us with, though since I met my wife somewhat late that time may be winding down.
 
I have four anecdotes:

My parents each come from very large families (7-9 children) and they have always been very open about growing up, telling me many stories about it; not once do I ever recall a complaint that “there were too many kids” (even though dad’s family was very poor).

I have 2 sisters and I am the youngest; there is an 11 year gap between myself and the middle sister. By the time I was old enough to know what was going on, my sisters were basically grown up, living their own lives and completely ignoring me. I grew up like an only child, and I was miserable and lonely when neighborhood kids weren’t available to play. I would have done anything for a playmate/sibling close in age.

My husband has an older brother and younger sister; they are approximately all 2 years apart in age. His memories are of them all playing together more often than fighting, he enjoyed his childhood, and they all generally get along today.

We have three boys, 10, 7 and almost-turning-one. The older two play more often than they fight. There has been no jealousy over the little one – as a matter of fact they LOVE sitting and playing with him. I would never characterize the relationship between the three boys as abusive or hateful. The spats between the older two are short lived, then forgotten. We will probably try for a fourth child.
 
mjs2001 said:
Not a single nice thing to say about their parents? Hate some if not all of their siblings? Having more than two children is the same as criminal child abuse?

The people you have been talking with sound like complete narcissists with serious underlying issues. One might fairly assume that the people you’ve spoken with had parents who were, frankly, disasters whose children would have had emotional issues regardless of how many siblings they had.

Perhaps there are some Catholic families in your parish who you can talk to who have a different experience? Maybe a homeschooler’s group? They often have larger families, with parents who also came from larger families. Most of the homeschooled children I’ve met are the kindest, most well-adjusted kids imaginable.
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For one thing, anyone who would claim that having more than two children is child abuse has serious issues with their sense of proportion, doesn’t understand what child abuse is, and/or has no idea what it can be like in families of a different size than their own. (Of course, that last one is true of everyone.)

My dad came from a family of 5. He is still close with his living siblings, and considers his mother (deceased) as an uncanonized saint.

Really, I’ve never met anyone like the OP describes. I know lots of people with large families (kids range in age from about 18 to about 85, family sizes from 4 to 10), and they’re all pretty much OK with it. I mean, you might get some complaints like one from a friend of mine who was on the younger end of 10 children, that his parents never had much time for him, but then he had his older siblings, so it was OK. (I don’t know what the exact age range for his family was, but since they were all children of the same mother, I think we can assume that there wasn’t more than about 25 years from the oldest to the youngest.) The most acrimonious inter-sibling relationship I’m personally aware of came from a family of 2 kids. 🙂

All I can say is whatever you do, don’t just have one if you can help it. It’s d$%^ lonely and caring for aging parents is harder when you’re outnumbered.

And as for question 4, a little neglect is OK sometimes. I don’t mean like not making sure the child gets something to eat, has clothes, makes it to school on time, etc. I mean just leaving the poor thing alone sometimes. I spent much of my childhood trying to escape my mother’s attention. If my dad hadn’t been a workaholic (and thus not around that much), I would have gone insane. I had the well-known only-child’s problem of thinking I was the center of the universe, and the less-well-known problem of wishing I wasn’t. When I got into the real world and realized I was nobody in particular, I was so glad. 🙂 And I’ve had a couple of friends from families of two who had some of the same feelings, about trying to get away from parental attention and be alone in their own heads.

–Jen
 
I think that perhaps the most important thing parents can do to encourage their kids to love each other is to adhere to the Church’s teaching on the marital embrace. To realize that this is to be a culmination of the gift of each other to each other that marriage should be. If one of them withholds part of themselves, ie contraception, or is using the other for personal gratification it affects their relationship and even though the kids don’t know what is going on they detect the friction and it affects how they relate to each other. As a man, learning to willingly, and eventually joyfully, sacrifice the sexual urge for the good of your wife and give that as your gift to her in your heart ,opens your heart to what love is and helps you live it daily. The fruits of this sacrifice in the lives of the kids are amazing, even though they are not aware of your sacrifice.
 
I know many families with lots of children. The grown kids tend to have smaller families than their parents did, but not when you adjust for marrying 3-5 years later in life. I also know people with one sibling who don’t like their sibling and people who are only children who wish their parents had more other children. This becomes particularly clear in late middle age, when the work of caring for the parents in their old age can be divided and shared.
 
I am from a family of 5 and my husband from a family of six. We get on very well indeed with all our siblings, love to spend time together and no hate or shouting involved. We have 6 children of our own- two sets of twins and two singletons and our oldest twins were six when our youngest twins were born. Family life sure was busy, but also full of fun and laughter. In my opinion, learning to have to give and take, to share time, toys and attention is a valuable life lesson for every child. Now our own children are young adults they are incredibly close, spend time choosing to be together and babysitting our grandchildren for each other. Of course there are ups and downs in family life and it ain’t all roses round the door, apple pie and icecream BUT the size of a family- big or small -doesn’t make it a happy one. That’s down to the parents attitude and relationship!
 
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