Familys can be together forever- for Mormons

[SteveVH]

I’ve always heard of the doctrine, “forever families” and being “sealed” in the Temple, but I’ve never really thought about what they believe other Christians believe about heaven. So for those who are LDS or former LDS, what exactly are/were you taught about traditional Christianity in regards to heaven? Do the LDS believe that other Christians believe that we won’t remember our loved ones in heaven? That we won’t be together? How can being “sealed” be any different than being w/loved ones in heaven in traditional Christianity? How is this doctrine such a hook for converts when Christians believe we can still be with out loved ones in heaven?

You make a great point and I could not agree more. As Catholics we certainly believe that we will be with our loved ones in heaven and, in fact, we will have a greater intimacy with them there than we do here on earth, an intimacy that is beyond our human comprehension.

 

[PaulDupre1]

So far as I know, the LDS are the only people in the world who believe that families won’t be together in heaven (unless you join the LDS and get sealed and pay them 10% of all your money for the rest of your life).

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)

 

[zaffiroborant]

So far as I know, the LDS are the only people in the world who believe that families won’t be together in heaven (unless you join the LDS and get sealed and pay them 10% of all your money for the rest of your life).

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)

This is where the disagreement started in both cases with LDS missionaries at my door. When I expressed my belief that we would all be together in heaven both sets of missionaries told me I couldn’t know that in my religion, one pair made some derisive comment about my statue of Mary. In both cases I said I had hope that we would be together because I had faith in God’s love and mercy. In one case I was told I must not love my children since I didn’t want to be with them forever. The other said “if it was my children I wouldn’t want to hope, I’d want to know for certain” and basically the only way to be certain was to be LDS.

 

[RebeccaJ]

If a Mormon asks me if I believe that families can be together forever, I would say “Yes, of course, but not for the reasons you believe and not in the way you believe.” I would explain that God is our true Father, and heaven is our true home, and because we all have the same Father every human being in heaven is therefore my brother or sister, even more so than my own family here on Earth. There are no divisions of families in heaven as there are here. There is only one family–God’s family. And I don’t need to be ‘sealed’ to be with any of them, because there is no such thing as sealing to begin with.

Not a sealing ordinance needed.

However, our baptism and confirmation seals us to Christ, in a Christian understanding, not a Mormon understanding.

 

[NewSeeker]

It’s not just former Mormons who experience negative repercussions from family or friends when they leave. When my baptism as a Catholic became common knowledge in my family’s LDS ward, several church friends approached my wife and asked “Why would your husband leave the church?” “Doesn’t he love you anymore?” “Doesn’t he want to be married to you eternally anymore?” “Do you think he had an affair?” That hurt my wife a lot and she kept those conversations a secret until just last year, five years after my baptism. The gossip has made it impossible for my wife to go to church alone. We have since left that ward and have lived in a couple of additional wards since then. My wife longs to go to church but refuses to attend at all unless we all go with her to maintain the facade of a normal Mormon family to prevent the gossip. My apostasy and Catholic faith must be kept a secret. She insists the boys go so they can receive basic instruction and spiritual formation, but they won’t go unless I make them go. Sunday mornings are hell in our home because no one wants to go except my wife and she won’t go alone because of the inevitable gossip that sets in when people find out about the apostate husband. It’s not remotely the same for me. I can attend Mass alone without problem, since the nature of worship and the reason you go to church are so radically different between Mormonism and Catholicism. It’s been a few months since my wife has gone to the local ward and frankly it’s been much more peaceful at home. The trade off is that I don’t get to go to church, either, to maintain the peace. I haven’t received communion in two months. LDS teaching has poisoned my family and has led to a situation where the only way we can maintain a stable, peaceful environment for our sons at home is to avoid church as a family altogether.

The LDS doctrine of eternal families is beautiful on its face but it has a dark, insidious core and it can ruin families if any family member leaves the church.

 

[jadamo]

It’s not just former Mormons who experience negative repercussions from family or friends when they leave. When my baptism as a Catholic became common knowledge in my family’s LDS ward, several church friends approached my wife and asked “Why would your husband leave the church?” “Doesn’t he love you anymore?” “Doesn’t he want to be married to you eternally anymore?” “Do you think he had an affair?” That hurt my wife a lot and she kept those conversations a secret until just last year, five years after my baptism. The gossip has made it impossible for my wife to go to church alone. We have since left that ward and have lived in a couple of additional wards since then. My wife longs to go to church but refuses to attend at all unless we all go with her to maintain the facade of a normal Mormon family to prevent the gossip. My apostasy and Catholic faith must be kept a secret. She insists the boys go so they can receive basic instruction and spiritual formation, but they won’t go unless I make them go. Sunday mornings are hell in our home because no one wants to go except my wife and she won’t go alone because of the inevitable gossip that sets in when people find out about the apostate husband. It’s not remotely the same for me. I can attend Mass alone without problem, since the nature of worship and the reason you go to church are so radically different between Mormonism and Catholicism. It’s been a few months since my wife has gone to the local ward and frankly it’s been much more peaceful at home. The trade off is that I don’t get to go to church, either, to maintain the peace. I haven’t received communion in two months. LDS teaching has poisoned my family and has led to a situation where the only way we can maintain a stable, peaceful environment for our sons at home is to avoid church as a family altogether.

The LDS doctrine of eternal families is beautiful on its face but it has a dark, insidious core and it can ruin families if any family member leaves the church.

I am so sorry, this kind of situation just isn’t right. Regardless of the religion, if spouses belong to different religions, respect for each others chosen faith should always be maintained, at least for the sake of the children. I can understand how this could be so much harder for those who are faithful LDS, the pressure is so much more. When our neighbor moved in, he was a single father with 3 children, his wife had had an affair and left him. He is LDS but he rarely went to church b/c, as he told us, he was as much of an outcast as we were (being Catholic) b/c he was a single father. I found that sad that he was unsupported in his ward, and was for the most part ignored.

 

[jadamo]

Not a sealing ordinance needed.

However, our baptism and confirmation seals us to Christ, in a Christian understanding, not a Mormon understanding.

So true and such a beautiful way to compare the different “sealings”. Thank you for this

 

[kozlosap]

This “sealing” practice caused a huge family rift. In the 1970’s my cousin, who was seventeen at the time, met a LDS missionary and as soon as she was eighteen, converted. I was twenty, and invited to be a bridesmaid, however, my parents refused to allow me or my sister to participate since my dear aunt and uncle were not allowed inside of the Oakland Temple and neither were any of we heathen misguided Catholics. Years passed and my Mom and Dad both passed away. The day after my Dad’s funeral, my LDS cousin called my sister and happily informed her that she need not worry that she had made sure that my parents and my two brothers who died before age three were all together in Heaven since she had paid to have them sealed! Needless to say, my poor sister went ballistic and we did not speak to our cousin for ten years.
Eventually, through email, we once again connected with our cousin. She had developed very progressive MS and was in bad shape. Her family was experiencing horrible financial problems and unable to afford an electric chair/cart that would make her life easier. My dear sister researched the little carts and sent her money to fully purchase one, taxes, delivery and all. After a month, my sissy asked for a pic of my cousin using the device. She got a note back indicating that they were having to save money because my sissy didn’t send enough. Totally confused, my sis called the company and found that she did, indeed, send the right amount. When she confronted my cousin she was told that $250, or 10% had been given to the LDS church by her husband. Poor sissy was beside herself. From that day on, if any of us tried to help her family out, it was done directly, not ever with cash. The topper though, is that the husband made it clear to me that since i am an unmarried woman, I would be a handmaiden for families on the highest LDS planet/spiritual kingdom!! I guess my MA degree will be useful when dealing with all those superior men/gods!!!

 

[iepuras]

It’s not just former Mormons who experience negative repercussions from family or friends when they leave. When my baptism as a Catholic became common knowledge in my family’s LDS ward, several church friends approached my wife and asked “Why would your husband leave the church?” “Doesn’t he love you anymore?” “Doesn’t he want to be married to you eternally anymore?” “Do you think he had an affair?” That hurt my wife a lot and she kept those conversations a secret until just last year, five years after my baptism. The gossip has made it impossible for my wife to go to church alone. We have since left that ward and have lived in a couple of additional wards since then. My wife longs to go to church but refuses to attend at all unless we all go with her to maintain the facade of a normal Mormon family to prevent the gossip. My apostasy and Catholic faith must be kept a secret. She insists the boys go so they can receive basic instruction and spiritual formation, but they won’t go unless I make them go. Sunday mornings are hell in our home because no one wants to go except my wife and she won’t go alone because of the inevitable gossip that sets in when people find out about the apostate husband. It’s not remotely the same for me. I can attend Mass alone without problem, since the nature of worship and the reason you go to church are so radically different between Mormonism and Catholicism. It’s been a few months since my wife has gone to the local ward and frankly it’s been much more peaceful at home. The trade off is that I don’t get to go to church, either, to maintain the peace. I haven’t received communion in two months. LDS teaching has poisoned my family and has led to a situation where the only way we can maintain a stable, peaceful environment for our sons at home is to avoid church as a family altogether.

The LDS doctrine of eternal families is beautiful on its face but it has a dark, insidious core and it can ruin families if any family member leaves the church.

I am so sorry for this. Mormonism does poison families, especially when members of the family do not believe.

When I left, I was naive to think I could continue to have a good relationship with my Mormon family. Unfortunately, we have all suffered. Your last sentence is so true.

 

[iepuras]

This is where the disagreement started in both cases with LDS missionaries at my door. When I expressed my belief that we would all be together in heaven both sets of missionaries told me I couldn’t know that in my religion, one pair made some derisive comment about my statue of Mary. In both cases I said I had hope that we would be together because I had faith in God’s love and mercy. In one case I was told I must not love my children since I didn’t want to be with them forever. The other said “if it was my children I wouldn’t want to hope, I’d want to know for certain” and basically the only way to be certain was to be LDS.

And they think they will win over converts by being rude?

Mormons will say they want the certainty of sealing, but where is the certainty when a child can become an “apostate”?

 

[iepuras]

This “sealing” practice caused a huge family rift. In the 1970’s my cousin, who was seventeen at the time, met a LDS missionary and as soon as she was eighteen, converted. I was twenty, and invited to be a bridesmaid, however, my parents refused to allow me or my sister to participate since my dear aunt and uncle were not allowed inside of the Oakland Temple and neither were any of we heathen misguided Catholics. Years passed and my Mom and Dad both passed away. The day after my Dad’s funeral, my LDS cousin called my sister and happily informed her that she need not worry that she had made sure that my parents and my two brothers who died before age three were all together in Heaven since she had paid to have them sealed! Needless to say, my poor sister went ballistic and we did not speak to our cousin for ten years.
Eventually, through email, we once again connected with our cousin. She had developed very progressive MS and was in bad shape. Her family was experiencing horrible financial problems and unable to afford an electric chair/cart that would make her life easier. My dear sister researched the little carts and sent her money to fully purchase one, taxes, delivery and all. After a month, my sissy asked for a pic of my cousin using the device. She got a note back indicating that they were having to save money because my sissy didn’t send enough. Totally confused, my sis called the company and found that she did, indeed, send the right amount. When she confronted my cousin she was told that $250, or 10% had been given to the LDS church by her husband. Poor sissy was beside herself. From that day on, if any of us tried to help her family out, it was done directly, not ever with cash. The topper though, is that the husband made it clear to me that since i am an unmarried woman, I would be a handmaiden for families on the highest LDS planet/spiritual kingdom!! I guess my MA degree will be useful when dealing with all those superior men/gods!!!

Your LDS cousin and her husband sure do know how to be rude.

Not only was she rude to tell your sister the DAY AFTER THE FUNERAL that she was going to “baptize” your parents by proxy and do the sealings but she was violating the rules the LDS church sets out. She is supposed to obtain permission from the closest living relative, which would by YOU and YOUR SISTER and NOT HER. Not that the rules stop many Mormons from performing baptisms by proxy in their temples.

I cannot believe your cousin and her husband tithed on your sister’s generous gift to them. That is beyond rude.

I spent many years as a single lady in the LDS church. As a single woman, you wouldn’t just be a “handmaiden”. It is much worse. You would be a plural wife to some “righteous priesthood holder” popping out spirit babies. Uppity women need to be put in their place eventually.

 

[iepuras]

Exactly! Like I said in my post, above, it’s a control mechanism that was employed by the church leaders, early on, to keep everyone in line. I hate to say it, but I really believe it’s a downright **diabolical **plan that could never have come from God. It’s very sad to hear so many stories of how those of you that have left are treated by your own families, that should always love you, unconditionally. The only thing I can see from that, is that Mormonism promotes hatred within its own families.

Whenever a Catholic falls away from the faith, or leaves the Church for another, his/her family lovingly prays for them to come back. But, they are never shunned as if they didn’t exist. I just can’t fathom how anyone could ever do something like that to any family member. That’s a sign of a complete lack of love, coming from people that are supposed to be ‘all about the family’! It’s just not logical. It’s certainly not what you would expect from people that believe in a loving God.

I went to the temple a lot during my single years. The more I think about the temple, the more I think that the word you used, “diabolical” is very apt. Temple ceremonies are absolutely NOT from God. Joseph Smith was into the occult and folk magic. I have a hard time believing that this did not invite evil influences into the beliefs and practices of Mormonism.

 

[Brandon_Cal]

This “sealing” practice caused a huge family rift. In the 1970’s my cousin, who was seventeen at the time, met a LDS missionary and as soon as she was eighteen, converted. I was twenty, and invited to be a bridesmaid, however, my parents refused to allow me or my sister to participate since my dear aunt and uncle were not allowed inside of the Oakland Temple and neither were any of we heathen misguided Catholics. Years passed and my Mom and Dad both passed away. The day after my Dad’s funeral, my LDS cousin called my sister and happily informed her that she need not worry that she had made sure that my parents and my two brothers who died before age three were all together in Heaven since she had paid to have them sealed! Needless to say, my poor sister went ballistic and we did not speak to our cousin for ten years.
Eventually, through email, we once again connected with our cousin. She had developed very progressive MS and was in bad shape. Her family was experiencing horrible financial problems and unable to afford an electric chair/cart that would make her life easier. My dear sister researched the little carts and sent her money to fully purchase one, taxes, delivery and all. After a month, my sissy asked for a pic of my cousin using the device. She got a note back indicating that they were having to save money because my sissy didn’t send enough. Totally confused, my sis called the company and found that she did, indeed, send the right amount. When she confronted my cousin she was told that $250, or 10% had been given to the LDS church by her husband. Poor sissy was beside herself. From that day on, if any of us tried to help her family out, it was done directly, not ever with cash. The topper though, is that the husband made it clear to me that since i am an unmarried woman, I would be a handmaiden for families on the highest LDS planet/spiritual kingdom!! I guess my MA degree will be useful when dealing with all those superior men/gods!!!

Even as a Mormon I’ve always had a big problem with treating gifts as “increase” that must be tithed, especially so when you consider gifts given to faithful Mormons from faithful Mormons. In such situations you’re essentially paying double tithing. The scripture often used by Mormons to justify this practice comes from Matthew 23:23, where Jesus simultaneously commends the Pharisees for paying tithing on essentially anything they have, earn, or receive while castigating them for ignoring the “weightier matters of the Law”, such as mercy and faith. What Mormons ignore is that the audience is entirely Jewish, and therefore presumably entirely tithe-payers! It would make absolutely no sense for the Lord to be asking for 10% of every single exchange between individuals.

So imagine the Mormon father who earns $200 from his job. He gives $20 to the LDS Church, and then the other $180 to his son for his birthday. He also teaches his good LDS son that he must pay tithing on this “increase”! So, junior pays $18 to the LDS Church. The LDS Church has now made $38 (19%) on $200 of generated income that came from only one man’s labor!

Of course the Mormon apologist can retort that we don’t live in a society where everyone is LDS and so its fair to tithe on gifts. But what makes your story so heart-wrenching is that your cousin-in-law is essentially telling your sister that if she wishes to do a charitable work for your cousin, she must also donate a little money to the LDS Church as well! This is downright extortion!

I don’t think I’ve ever been more fuming mad at a Mormon-related anecdote on this site.

 

[Brandon_Cal]

Another thought given my last post here; I’ve never known a Mormon that believes one must pay tithing on a non-monetary gift, either by breaking off 10% of that object and stuffing it in a tithing envelope, or by finding out how much the gift cost, then paying 10% of that value. So why the double standard?

Let this be a lesson to everyone. If you are not LDS, never give monetary gifts to Mormons, unless there’s no practical way for you to give them a necessary gift in a physical manner (e.g. wiring necessary funds to pay a medical bill, or a bail to get out of jail). You want to graciously gift a Mormon with a necessary electric wheelchair? Buy it yourself and deliver it. Or go ahead and fork out the extra 10% to pay for home delivery.

ETA: kozlosap, as an (unbelieving) Mormon I’m really sorry your cousin-in-law did this. I would’ve never behaved so presumptuously, neither would my still-believing and active wife, or anyone else in our family for that matter.

 

[iepuras]

But what makes your story so heart-wrenching is that your cousin-in-law is essentially telling your sister that if she wishes to do a charitable work for your cousin, she must also donate a little money to the LDS Church as well! This is downright extortion!

I don’t think I’ve ever been more fuming mad at a Mormon-related anecdote on this site.

Seriously. The fact that $250 was tithed to the LDS church means that kozlosap’s sister was very VERY generous and loving to a person who has been very rude to her. This is very Christian, and I don’t know that I would ever be this kind and loving to someone who has been so rude and insensitive to me. My head is about to explode just thinking about this.

 

[Brandon_Cal]

This “sealing” practice caused a huge family rift. In the 1970’s my cousin, who was seventeen at the time, met a LDS missionary and as soon as she was eighteen, converted. I was twenty, and invited to be a bridesmaid, however, my parents refused to allow me or my sister to participate since my dear aunt and uncle were not allowed inside of the Oakland Temple and neither were any of we heathen misguided Catholics. Years passed and my Mom and Dad both passed away. The day after my Dad’s funeral, my LDS cousin called my sister and happily informed her that she need not worry that she had made sure that my parents and my two brothers who died before age three were all together in Heaven since she had paid to have them sealed! Needless to say, my poor sister went ballistic and we did not speak to our cousin for ten years.

Oh goodness! This is just unnecessarily provocative. I understand that the LDS practice of posthumous ordinances for non-LDS is a very controversial and sensitive subject. On the one hand LDS truly believe that these ordinances are necessary and since their effect is believed to be good for those whom the ordinances are performed, they believe performing such ordinances is an act of love. On the other hand many (if not most) non-LDS find these practices to be offensive and disrespectful to both the legacy of the deceased as well as insensitive to the feelings of the living family. We Mormons know this, so I would have expected your cousin to have acted with a little more discretion! Fine, baptize the dead, but don’t go out of your way to call up the survivors the day after the funeral to gloat about how you’ve made sure that they’re now LDS in Heaven!.

Another thing, given that she is a former Catholic, she should know that Catholics believe “families can be together forever”. She herself may now believe that Catholic Sacraments are insufficient, but she knows that those who are still Catholic DO believe! What purpose did her calling to inform your sister to “not worry” and that all the arrangements for eternal togetherness have been made, other than a snide way to say “your religion is wrong”?

Again, kozlosap, I’m so very very sorry.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I went to the temple a lot during my single years. The more I think about the temple, the more I think that the word you used, “diabolical” is very apt. Temple ceremonies are absolutely NOT from God. Joseph Smith was into the occult and folk magic. I have a hard time believing that this did not invite evil influences into the beliefs and practices of Mormonism.

The occult aspect, IMO, is seen starkly in how LDS speak about their temples. “The veil made thin”, “the dead observing”, etc. It is a place where Mormons seek encounters with the dead, and use such stories for promoting,or bragging about their personal faith. Creeps me out.

Beyond that, Smith’s narrative is rife with beliefs about the spirits of the dead, visiting him, guarding treasure (gold plates), making threats and promises. How anyone could view this as not occult, is beyond me.

 

[CarolNoel]

This is such a very sad topic. So glad I am Catholic. :crying:

 

[Telstar]

I went to the temple a lot during my single years. The more I think about the temple, the more I think that the word you used, “diabolical” is very apt. Temple ceremonies are absolutely NOT from God. Joseph Smith was into the occult and folk magic. I have a hard time believing that this did not invite evil influences into the beliefs and practices of Mormonism.

I believe Joseph Smith’s entire plan was diabolical from the beginning, not just the ‘temple’ ceremonies. They were only a small part of it, that were added later on. His interest in magic and the occult obviously caused him to be more susceptible to evil influences, but I think he always had a tendency toward evil.

The occult aspect, IMO, is seen starkly in how LDS speak about their temples. “The veil made thin”, “the dead observing”, etc. It is a place where Mormons seek encounters with the dead, and use such stories for promoting,or bragging about their personal faith. Creeps me out.

Beyond that, Smith’s narrative is rife with beliefs about the spirits of the dead, visiting him, guarding treasure (gold plates), making threats and promises. How anyone could view this as not occult, is beyond me.

Absolutely. He was much more interested in the ‘dark side’ of spirituality than he ever was with the light. That’s why there’s so much emphasis on being secretive in Mormonism. He was obsessed with having some kind of power that most other people didn’t have. His supposed ‘visions’ are a perfect example of the kind of power he wanted to have, but he knew he never would. So, he did the next best thing. He made them up, so people around him would think he was ‘special’.

When a lot of people, instead of fawning over him, told him that his vision was probably ‘demonic’, he was livid, because it backfired on him. I think that’s when he decided to get even with those people that not only didn’t believe him, but even made fun of him for it. I think that’s when he decided to make up his own religion, to replace all forms of Christianity that he saw around him. He wanted to pull people away from Christianity and get them to worship him, instead.

If you consider how he took the basic beliefs of Christianity and twisted them into something close, but not exactly the same (like the BoM, that he created as his own version of a ‘bible’… a ‘new gospel’), it’s easy to see that he wanted to create a religion that could draw people away from all Christian churches. But, his biggest motive was to enrich and glorify himself, and not to serve God. I don’t think he ever really believed in God, at all. But, he sure had a great gift for selling his kind of snake oil.

I hate to say it, but the more I’ve studied it, the more convinced I am that Mormonism isn’t just a poor version of Christianity, like I originally thought it was. Now, I see it as actually being completely opposed to any form of Christianity. Everything about Mormonism is diametrically opposed to the most basic of all Christian beliefs. I think that was his real intent from the very beginning. The saddest part of it all, is that it worked. He duped a lot of Christians into following a new kind of religion that is the complete opposite of Christianity, and it’s still going strong.

 

[kimg901]

I believe Joseph Smith’s entire plan was diabolical from the beginning, not just the ‘temple’ ceremonies. They were only a small part of it, that were added later on. His interest in magic and the occult obviously caused him to be more susceptible to evil influences, but I think he always had a tendency toward evil.

Absolutely. He was much more interested in the ‘dark side’ of spirituality than he ever was with the light. That’s why there’s so much emphasis on being secretive in Mormonism. He was obsessed with having some kind of power that most other people didn’t have. His supposed ‘visions’ are a perfect example of the kind of power he wanted to have, but he knew he never would. So, he did the next best thing. He made them up, so people around him would think he was ‘special’.

When a lot of people, instead of fawning over him, told him that his vision was probably ‘demonic’, he was livid, because it backfired on him. I think that’s when he decided to get even with those people that not only didn’t believe him, but even made fun of him for it. I think that’s when he decided to make up his own religion, to replace all forms of Christianity that he saw around him. He wanted to pull people away from Christianity and get them to worship him, instead.

If you consider how he took the basic beliefs of Christianity and twisted them into something close, but not exactly the same (like the BoM, that he created as his own version of a ‘bible’… a ‘new gospel’), it’s easy to see that he wanted to create a religion that could draw people away from all Christian churches. But, his biggest motive was to enrich and glorify himself, and not to serve God. I don’t think he ever really believed in God, at all. But, he sure had a great gift for selling his kind of snake oil.

I hate to say it, but the more I’ve studied it, the more convinced I am that Mormonism isn’t just a poor version of Christianity, like I originally thought it was. Now, I see it as actually being completely opposed to any form of Christianity. Everything about Mormonism is diametrically opposed to the most basic of all Christian beliefs. I think that was his real intent from the very beginning. The saddest part of it all, is that it worked. He duped a lot of Christians into following a new kind of religion that is the complete opposite of Christianity, and it’s still going strong.

Very well said. He wanted power & money and used religion for it and it worked. May God have had mercy on him.