Fanatically religious people and being Godly

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Why does it seem like within Christianity many of the most “ultra orthodox super devout” believers also tend to be the least Christlike?

Let’s take two groups to examine: Independent Baptists like the Westboro Baptist Church, and the Society of St. Pius V (NOT the SSPX).

What is it about the ultra orthodox and religiously fanatical groups that makes them become so spiteful? Why don’t they see they drive people AWAY from Christ and not INTO Christ? What are similarities between Christian fundamentalists/fanatics and other religious extremist groups like Buddhist and Hindu extremists, radical ultra-Orthodox Jews, Islamists, and militant atheists?

Also, I’m not talking about Catholic traditionalists in good standing with the Church who tend to be a bit rigid but are like that in good faith and are still fairly genteel people. I’m talking people who look at Catholics in good faith and condemn them as modernists or heretics.
 
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I don’t those folks are devout, I think they’re legalistic.
 
adamhovey1988 said:
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Yeah there’s two forms of being devout…

A true Christlike devoutness, and a shallow legalistic devoutness.

One is the Apostles, the other is the Pharisees.

But for us religious people, it seems the more devout we become, the more we have to stand guard against becoming like the Pharisees.
 
Christ said “by this will all men know you are my disciples…” fill in the rest. If people do not exhibit what Christ told us was the tale-tell sign, we cannot know they are disciples.
 
Vatican II reaffirmed the call of all the baptized to live lives of virtue and holiness. For holiness is not only the realm of religious and priests but of all the baptized.

By virtue of baptism, all the laity share in the holiness of Christ and thus share the responsibility of showing forth that holiness to the world.

From saviour.org
 
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I agree but the way truth is presented is EXTREMELY important.

You can literally be reading verbatim from the Gospel, but if you come off as a wrathful madman it will drive people AWAY from Christ, not toward him.
 
Yeah…

Talking to you, nostra, and semper in the other thread got me thinking about traditionalists and ultra orthodox types…

But the thread I created here is about people who take that thinking 10 degrees higher.

I’ve fallen myself into overly rigid religious thinking in the past, but never to the total fanatical point of condemning the whole Church…

Like I said, what I’m seeking here is what makes people take traditionalism and turn it into fanatical fundamentalism…

I think all fanatical fundamentalists (like the SSPV) begin as traditionalists, but obviously not all traditionalists end up as fanatics…

But what are the pits and dangers which traditionalists should be weary for to make sure they don’t go too far down that road?
 
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I’m glad you’ve always stayed within the “boundaries.”

As a traditionalist, I guess I could kind of see why it’s a temptation to simply want to condemn all the others who aren’t as rigorous as you…

Especially in reaction to frustration over wanting to see the Church reformed in a more traditionalist direction and not seeing any progress be made, I suppose I could see why that may land somebody in a fundamentalist schismatic group.

I’m personally a “reform of the reform” type who wants to see the Ordinary Form Roman Rite reformed to recover certain elements and prayers of the Tridentine usage which were lost…

And in the past I’ve been tempted to want to get frustrated and just disown the entire OF as inherently flawed.

But then I had to force myself to see the good in it and really understand it and see the connection it has to Christian tradition.
 
Folks who go to extremes (liberal or conservative) frequently have very painful backstories and unhealed wounds.

What seems spiteful to you might just be an over reactive defense mechanism.
 
The situation with the SSPX makes me endlessly frustrated…

And you know why? It’s not because I hate them or don’t believe in their cause…

It’s because I believe the Church NEEDS THEM! They need to be IN THE Church, in FULL Communion to have a real impact and make a change in the Church.

But they make unreasonable demands and refuse to regularize their situation…

So instead of working hand in hand with the FSSP to change the tide within the Church, they remain on the periphery, essentially doing nothing (not saying their prayers aren’t effective, but WORK needs to accompany prayer).

I admit, I AM angry at the SSPX, but only because as a tradition minded person I am angry at them for stubbornly remaining in the situation they are in instead of humbly entering into full communion and working on the Church. I feel betrayed by them because I see the Church needs their presence and influence, but won’t fix their situation.

If there was an SSPX chapel near me, honestly right now I wouldn’t step foot in it. If they were in a regular, full communion situation however, I’d regularly attend and fully support them.
 
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I think it’s pretty clear too that gay priests were a major component of the abuse crisis.

IMO, clergy who are gay and haven’t had any accusations made against them and are in good standing should be grandfathered in, but in the future the Church should be much more strict in insuring that gay men do not become ordained clergy.
 
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However - conversely and this may seem contradictory at first - I think if the Church offered more LGBTQ ministries and made gay people feel more a part of the Church, I think that would actually make it so less gay men seek the priesthood.
 
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Absolutely, the Church should be clear in saying gay marriage is, sacramentally impossible, and the Church cannot in good conscience bless gay unions either. Also that gay sex remains gravely sinful, and same sex attraction is a disordered attraction.

That’s all settled doctrinal matter.

However, the Church could easily have LGBTQ support groups, have healing Masses for LGBTQ people who are are spiritually wounded, and just be more up front and open, show them we are waiting with open arms to embrace them even if they can’t participate fully in the Sacraments, they still have a place in the Church.

Fr. James Martin has done a good job with this, HOWEVER, he has also muddied the waters because he’s strongly implied that he supports doctrinal heresy like gay marriage in the Church, women priests, and a change in SSA being labeled disordered.

His pastoral ideas would be good for the most part if he didn’t also seem to cave and compromise on certain doctrinal points.
 
In the same way that Church’s could offer support to any group of sinners - I find drug addicts to be the easiest to draw analogies with - she can do the same for LGBTQ people.

If drug addicts can gather in the Church hall to support each other and talk about their faith, then gay and transgender people should be able to too.

We must never compromise on orthodoxy, but we also must overcome the temptation to ostracize those who are, while technically living in sin, are also desirous of some sort of relationship with God in the context of the Catholic faith.

I believe this is what Pope Francis is trying to teach with Amoris Latitia.
 
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Yeah no that’s wrong…

Unless they could somehow do it with no sex, no sleeping in the same bed, no romantic or sexual element at all - basically living together as brother and brother instead of spouse and spouse.

But let’s be realistic, 99.9% can’t do that.

And we cannot compromise on doctrinal orthodoxy, so we must be uncompromising in defining gay couples cohabitation as technically sinful.

But we also don’t need to condemn them or rub it in their faces, because that will drive them away.

I think the mindset needs to be “doctrinally orthodox and uncompromising; pastorally present and welcoming.”
 
Okay so with transgenders what I’m thinking is this.

We just have groups or meetings with these people where we let them know the Church and Christ loves them, and will do whatever she can to support there temporal needs. If they are feeling despair or suicidal, the Church is there to give them a shoulder to cry on and an ear to hear their complaints.

Come and pray with us, we won’t judge you or look down on you, we will welcome you as one of us with open arms.

If you are transgender and Catholic don’t be afraid. Come to Jesus. Pour your heart out to him.

The question of Sacraments for transgender people is more complex. If a transgender person is living a chaste and celibate life, and wants to go to Confession, should they be able to receive absolution and then the Eucharist? Why or why not?
 
I think you made a very good and valid point, and that in the situation you illustrated you used good prudential judgment.
 
I can think of a few things:
  1. A desire to feel special or better than everyone else. I bet those militant atheists get a real kick out of feeling they are more enlightened than 99% of humanity.
  2. One extreme as a response to another. I imagine some people get sick of being called fools for being orthodox followers of their religion and being surrounded by religious and cultural rot that they start punching back.
 
My thinking is they should dress appropriately - meaning modestly and in a way they won’t scandalize anyone.

If they’re a transgender woman born a man, but have a beard and huge muscles, don’t show up in a short skirt (I mean if you plan to receive the Sacraments)…

They should dress modestly as whatever gender they appear to be so they don’t scandalize people.

The transgender bathroom thing I think is ridiculous too, my thinking is similar… If you look like a woman, use the woman’s bathroom discreetly and with good manners, if you look like a man use the mans bathroom.discreetly and with good manners.

If you’re a transgender woman born a man who looks like a man, do the right thing and use the mens bathroom, don’t go in the girls bathroom and freak out little girls.
 
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