Fantasies about someone other than your spouse

[Upbeat_Dad]

It’s easy to say “simply pray and avoid that person like the plague!” but “that person” is NOT what is driving the problem. The issues of the household of origin that “that person” happens to embody or represent is what is driving the problem, and if those issues are not sorted out and resolved and released, those same issues will simply eventually resurface further down the road somewhere else.

I quite agree that other person is not the underlying cause of the sexual fantasy problem, any more than alcohol is the underlying cause of the alcoholic’s problem. That doesn’t mean, however, that the alcoholic is well advised to keep drinking. By distancing one’s self from the object of one’s fantasies (whether mentally, emotionally, or physically) one is not cruelly placing the blame onto that person or dehumanizing him or her into some sort of demon. Of course, he or she is a gift of God, but that’s not the point. The gift of wine was Christ’s first miracle. Wine (i.e., alcohol) is a good thing in moderation. But if one develops a problem in controlling one’s drinking or, in this case, a problem in controlling one’s thoughts about someone other than one’s spouse, then eliminating what the Church calls the “near occasion of sin” from one’s life is a necessary aspect of the healing process.

The correct prayer isn’t “Lord, please help me avoid that person” “Lord please help me not be a sinner” or “Lord please rearrange my head and heart for me and keep me out of trouble before I inadvertently destroy my marriage” (God, please do my work for me)
The correct prayer is “Lord, please help me sort out, resolve, and release my issues from my household of origin so that I may live according to my intention to live a responsible and Christian life rather than by my old habits and wounds.” (God, I fully intend to do my work, please help me with it).

This last passage is a little convoluted. While I certainly agree with the last statement of “God, I fully intend to do my work, please help me with it,” that does not render the other possible prayers invalid (i.e., “Lord, please help me not be a sinner”). It’s perfectly fine to pray that way if the Spirit so moves. Of course, we all need to take responsibility for our intentions and our actions and yes, of course, we all need Christ’s help in doing so. But the thing is, and there’s really no way of getting around this, Christ already has helped us a great deal through his teachings. He has taught us that lustful fantasizing is terribly problematic, as much as physical adultery. Now, one either believes that or not. But whether one does or not does not change the truth of Christ’s teaching. Truth isn’t contingent upon our assent.

Remember that Jesus taught his followers that if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and through it away (cf. Mt 5:29, Mt 18:9, Mk 9:47). As I mentioned in my first reply to this thread, that’s not a call to self mutilation so much as it is a call to radical change. Jesus teaches us to be radical (within the spirit and meaning of the Gospel) when dealing with our sins. Yes, we need to pray God for help, and yes we need to take responsibility for ourselves to the extent possible. But we also need to be willing to take Christ at his word when he tries to teach us something. The advice to avoid the object of one’s fantasies is not some heavy-handed, Puritanical holdover from a sexually-repressed age. Rather, it is a radical response to the near occasion of sin, not says me, not says the Church, but says Christ. Believe Him, don’t believe Him, it’s entirely up to you, but don’t delude yourself into thinking that you can keep the object of your desires close to your mind and heart and then expect to conquer the problem.

 

[sseason]

I quite agree that other person is not the underlying cause of the sexual fantasy problem, any more than alcohol is the underlying cause of the alcoholic’s problem. That doesn’t mean, however, that the alcoholic is well advised to keep drinking. By distancing one’s self from the object of one’s fantasies (whether mentally, emotionally, or physically) one is not cruelly placing the blame onto that person or dehumanizing him or her into some sort of demon. Of course, he or she is a gift of God, but that’s not the point. The gift of wine was Christ’s first miracle. Wine (i.e., alcohol) is a good thing in moderation. But if one develops a problem in controlling one’s drinking or, in this case, a problem in controlling one’s thoughts about someone other than one’s spouse, then eliminating what the Church calls the “near occasion of sin” from one’s life is a necessary aspect of the healing process.

This last passage is a little convoluted. While I certainly agree with the last statement of “God, I fully intend to do my work, please help me with it,” that does not render the other possible prayers invalid (i.e., “Lord, please help me not be a sinner”). It’s perfectly fine to pray that way if the Spirit so moves. Of course, we all need to take responsibility for our intentions and our actions and yes, of course, we all need Christ’s help in doing so. But the thing is, and there’s really no way of getting around this, Christ already has helped us a great deal through his teachings. He has taught us that lustful fantasizing is terribly problematic, as much as physical adultery. Now, one either believes that or not. But whether one does or not does not change the truth of Christ’s teaching. Truth isn’t contingent upon our assent.

Remember that Jesus taught his followers that if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and through it away (cf. Mt 5:29, Mt 18:9, Mk 9:47). As I mentioned in my first reply to this thread, that’s not a call to self mutilation so much as it is a call to radical change. Jesus teaches us to be radical (within the spirit and meaning of the Gospel) when dealing with our sins. Yes, we need to pray God for help, and yes we need to take responsibility for ourselves to the extent possible. But we also need to be willing to take Christ at his word when he tries to teach us something. The advice to avoid the object of one’s fantasies is not some heavy-handed, Puritanical holdover from a sexually-repressed age. Rather, it is a radical response to the near occasion of sin, not says me, not says the Church, but says Christ. Believe Him, don’t believe Him, it’s entirely up to you, but don’t delude yourself into thinking that you can keep the object of your desires close to your mind and heart and then expect to conquer the problem.

Thank you for making those clarifications. I love when people put down in writing what I’m thinking but don’t quite have the words for.

Kudo’s to you! Peace to all!!!

 

[former_Catholic]

But if one develops a problem in controlling one’s drinking or, in this case, a problem in controlling one’s thoughts about someone other than one’s spouse, then eliminating what the Church calls the “near occasion of sin” from one’s life is a necessary aspect of the healing process.
.

The problem isn’t one of controlling or not controlling one’s *thoughts *at all. The problem is one of learning how to deal effectively with one’s overwhelming emotions. Those overwhelming emotions need to be gently sorted out, released, and healed. Generally overwhelming emotions run very deep… stemming from one’s childhood in one’s household of origin.

Most often such overwhelming emotions come from the desperate need to earn the love of one or both parents, to “be lovable,” to consider oneself “lovable.”. Sometimes they come from things like long forgotten incidents of seduction and abuse by one’s babysitters, relatives, neighbors etc. that demonstrated or rendered oneself “unlovable.”

It isn’t remotely possible to avoid everyone and everything on the planet that is going to bring up these issues. Avoiding an individual who brings up one’s issues is fine, but one cannot manage to avoid oneself and one’s issues, and the next person or incident that will set them off is always just around the corner.

If one can sort out those deep emotional issues, one can heal and release those issues, those emotions before they overwhelm and mess up one’s life. If one attempts to deny or overcontrol one’s emotions, one forces them deeper into the body where they will become a very much larger problem.

( “Lord, please help me not be a sinner”). It’s perfectly fine to pray that way if the Spirit so moves.

Christ specifically forbade the judging and defining of human beings. God judges and defines human beings, no one else. A legitimate prayer is to ask “Lord, please help me not to sin.”
All judgment is God’s.

 

[lizaanne]

Wow. Heavy stuff. Please don’t condemn me. This is very serious and I don’t know what to do. Affection has turned to lust and now I’m having sexual fantasies for someone other than my spouse. If that’s not bad enough, this person is “unavailable” as well and unaware of my feelings. We only see each other about once every other month with no phone calls and few emails in between, but in the past have had more frequent contact. I’m committed to my spouse but am definitely growing distant. Help!

• Taylor

The most important thing you must must do - is to stop feeding the beast. You have to stop yourself from thinking about this person. At all. Period. Do anything you have to when the thought comes into your mind - go exercise, pick up the newspaper (don’t go online, it’s too easy to let your mind wander), go cut the grass, do ANYTHING you need to do to stop feeding the beast that is eating the heart out of your marriage.

Soon - from no feeding, it will die, and the emotional upheaval will lessen and die. But this is an absolute must.

And in the mean time - pray pray pray - and in front of Christ in the Eucharist as much as possible.

~Liza

 

[Catholictrain]

There are practical things you can do to keep your love and committment to your wife always forefront in your mind. Simple things. For example:

1. Use some variation of the phrase “I love my wife xxxx!” as a password that you have to type every day at work. (xxxx would be replaced by your wife’s name)
2. Post a favorite picture of your wife on your computer as a backdrop… and also have one on your desk.
3. Say a set of prayers… perhaps three Hail Mary’s… every day at a set time for the gift of holy purity in your life (and the life of your family members)
4. Call or email your wife and tell her how much you love her … often.
5. Do not allow any contact whatsoever with the object of your fantasy. Say a Hail Mary each time you are tempted to think of her… if you do start to think of her then imagine her with the stomach flu… throwing up and looking sick. Or imagine her walking down the street in heaven after you are dead and think of how you would feel if you thought she knew the awful immoral thoughts you had of her.
6. Remember that you will die someday. What will you be thinking about at that moment? Hopefully it is your wife and family. That is what is important.

Love you wife… it takes work but it is worth it!

 

[Upbeat_Dad]

Christ specifically forbade the judging and defining of human beings. God judges and defines human beings, no one else. A legitimate prayer is to ask “Lord, please help me not to sin.”
All judgment is God’s.

Oh good grief! Calm down. No one is judging anyone here. The statements I have made in my previous three posts above bear that out quite well. Go back and reread them. When someone prays “Lord, help me to not be a sinner,” that isn’t judgement any more than when a person prays “Lord, help me to be a saint.” In both cases it’s a person asking God for help. God knows very well what the prayer’s intention is, so relax.

The problem isn’t one of controlling or not controlling one’s thoughts at all. The problem is one of learning how to deal effectively with one’s overwhelming emotions. Those overwhelming emotions need to be gently sorted out, released, and healed. Generally overwhelming emotions run very deep… stemming from one’s childhood in one’s household of origin.

Now, I do agree that getting to the heart of the matter is vitally important, and FormerCatholic does list some very valid reasons why someone could find themselves struggling in this way. Indeed, to ignore the underlying issues is to invite the problem to come back again. But to downplay the role of thoughts in this situation does, I think, suggest a kind of causal relationship that doesn’t exist. On the surface, it might seem that thoughts are not the problem, that instead it’s the underlying issues that are causing the thoughts. Resolve the issues, and the thoughts and fantasies will go away, or so the thinking goes. The problem, however, is not that linear. The interplay between underlying issues and thoughts (i.e. fantasies) is much more complex. There’s a kind cyclical relationship between the two, with each one informing and influencing the other. True, a person may have some childhood traumas or marital problems that may give rise to certain thoughts, but those thoughts are not benign. They cycle back around and influence how a person understands and comes to terms with things. To this extent, to indulge in unhealthy thoughts is to exacerbate the issues, and that is why, I think, Jesus didn’t really distinguish between lustful fantasies and physical adultery. We are called to deal with both problems, both the issues, and the thoughts. Thus, it’s not a dualistic “either/or” kind of situation, but rather it’s a more dialectic “both/and.”

That is why I drew the analogy in my previous post above with respect to alcoholism. Most people who struggle with alcohol abuse have some kind of underlying issue in their lives, and the alcohol is a misguided form of self-medication, at least at the outset. Over time, however, the alcohol abuse itself cycles back around and influences the underlying issue. As a depressant drug, alcohol changes one’s physiology over time and indeed alters one’s ability to even see the problem, let alone address it in a healthy way. That’s why treatment for alcohol addiction includes the kind of “both/and” approach I have described above. On the one hand, one must (as FormerCatholic correctly points out) sort out the reasons why one sought to self-medicate in the first place. On the other hand, though, one must stop drinking so as to be better able to do that as well as fight the body’s growing dependence on the substance itself.

Whether we like it or not, thoughts do play a major role in how we handle things, and all of the world’s great thinkers have understood this. Albert Einstein once said that the significant problems we face cannot be solved with the same level of thinking that created them. In this case, the problems in a marriage and of overwhelming emotions cannot be solved at the level of lust for another person outside the marriage. It just doesn’t work that way. Certainly one cannot go into hiding and keep other people at arms length every time a sexual thought or fantasy pops into one’s mind. But when one has reached a point where the fantasy is being continually nurtured by habitual contact with a person (whether in person or online), then it’s time to reevaluate the strategy. In some cases, breaking off contact completely may not be possible, as with, say, a coworker or relative. But that’s not Twhite’s situation. Read her story. It’s a situation where she can break off, or at least reduce the amount of contact, and insofar as that is the case I think she is well advised to do so. But, then, as FormerCatholic rightly points out, she also needs to explore the underlying issues in her life and marriage. Again, it’s not either/or but both/and.

So much for philosophy. Let’s come at the problem from a more pragmatic angle. Imagine that Jesus is sitting with you now, not condemning you, but loving you, and wanting what’s best for you. If you can imagine him saying something like “Oh, don’t worry, go ahead and imagine sex with this other guy, its just fine,” then by all means fantasize away. If, on the other hand, you read the Gospels and have a sense that Christ is calling for a higher standard, then listen to him, pray, get counseling, love your spouse, and things will get better in time.

This is the last post I’ll make here. Peace to all.

 

[johngh]

Taylor,

This may seem weird, but then again I am weird. Where I used to work there was a very attractive lady that I found myself attracted to. Worse, she was available. I couldn’t stop thinking about her. Prayer would help when I remembered to do so.

Finally, I allowed my self to “fantasize” to conclusion and no I do not mean “the act”

I just told myself, okay what would happen if you did this? It got me thinking about the lady and how unalike we were and how much I loved my wife and how I enjoyed our life together. It really made me realize that if I actually wanted to fantasize about this woman then I should act on it, but I also realized that it would be the worst thing I could do.

In my experience nothing knocks a fantasy down to size like taking it through to the natural consequences.

In my case that would have meant losing the woman I loved for someone who could never be like my wife and I would be miserable. All this on top of committing a grave sin.

Pax,

Bryan

That’s like saying “ok i’m going to give in to the sin of masturbation and viewing pornography because once I do that I will realize it’s disgusting and don’t wan to do it anymore”. That may have worked for you, but I really don’t think it will work for most people.

Besides, saying you have to give into a sin in order to defeat the sin is illogical and I think a very bad way to look at things.

 

[allhers]

Wow. Heavy stuff. Please don’t condemn me. This is very serious and I don’t know what to do. Affection has turned to lust and now I’m having sexual fantasies for someone other than my spouse. If that’s not bad enough, this person is “unavailable” as well and unaware of my feelings. We only see each other about once every other month with no phone calls and few emails in between, but in the past have had more frequent contact. I’m committed to my spouse but am definitely growing distant. Help!

• Taylor

I wouldl have given you the same advice as Joan M’s on post #9 and also, cut out the contact in any way, shape or form. I’ll keep you in my prayers too. One other thing, if you
don’t daily pray with your wife, start!! (The family that prays together stays together.)

 

[former_Catholic]

That’s like saying “ok i’m going to give in to the sin of masturbation and viewing pornography because once I do that I will realize it’s disgusting and don’t wan to do it anymore”. That may have worked for you, but I really don’t think it will work for most people.

Besides, saying you have to give into a sin in order to defeat the sin is illogical and I think a very bad way to look at things.

To accuse him of sin or of giving in to sin or of advising others to give in to sin is blatantly false and bearing false witness against a human being who behaved intelligently, admirably, responsibly, and successfully disempowered the power of a passing fancy.

The man sorted out the issue of overattraction to another human being and defused it in his life. He disempowered the issue and he empowered himself to live a responsible life. He demonstrated respect and love for self, for his wife, and for the object of his passing fancy whom he refused to objectify, but clearly chose to regard as a human being to be accorded the dignity of a human being and with whom he would (of course) end up seriously involved with if he acted out a passing fancy, to the detriment of everyone’s lives: his own, his wife’s, and hers. He put reality into the fantasy, thereby defusing the power of the fantasy. He practiced the power of Christian discernment and he demonstrated a clear commitment to Christianity which demands that one demonstrate love and respect *for all *concerned.

It is a stupid mother who says “No you don’t get any cookies, stay away from the cookies, you’re a disobedient child, you’re a sinful weak person if you want the cookies, you’ll have to go to confession if you sneak a cookie when I’m not looking, you march up those stairs and go say a Hail Mary right now and ask God’s forgiveness for wanting to disobey me!” etc. etc. etc. This is how one creates the over control, out-of-control unconscious addiction rollercoaster that destroys people.
The stupid mother will drive her child into lusting after the forbidden cookies and produce a child who is forever relentlessly struggling to overcome the strange overwhelming power cookies possess over him in life.

Conversely, it is a wise mother who sits the child down and helps him see how lousy and lethargic he will feel in a couple of hours if he eats those cookies instead of his dinner.The wise mother will help her child see that he doesn’t really want those cookies after all, and will produce a child capable of self-responsibility and discernment.

 

[twhite]

I found my thread! They moved it shortly after my initial post and I just now read all of what you guys have been writing. Hoo-wee! What great stuff.

Upbeat Dad, nice catch. You are correct. I have a husband, not a wife. And please don’t stop posting. I’ve read and re-read yours several times. You’re a very wise man and have been very helpful.

Quick replies to the great suggestions of many:

Confession: I go about once a week, and not necessarily because I want to.
Eucharistic Adoration: My weekly appointment with Jesus has been my saving grace.
Talk to a priest: I’ve been discussing this dilemma with one for some time now.
Etc: I’ve ramped up personal prayer time and spiritual reading lately. God has been very good to me as I’ve implored His help. It’s only because of Him and His assurance of His mercy and unconditional love that I still have hope.

My marriage: Many valid points have been made and great suggestions. I am well aware that I’m treading dangerous waters here. That is why I’m asking for your suggestions - to figure out how to “swim” rather than “sink”. I wish the answer was as simple as getting a little friskier in the bedroom or never seeing the other man again or telling my husband about what’s been going through my mind.

God can only do so much. He’s not going to force His will on mine. I have to be able to do my part. And I think that is what former Catholic was getting at. Emotional wounds inflicted in childhood are often the root of such problems. This is definitely the case in this situation. That said, I’ve talked about it (the childhood issues) with my husband in reference to previous issues. I’ve prayed for healing, gone to counseling, and I’m still at square one: sinning. That can’t go on. It’s destructive at so many levels.

Therein lies the dilemma. With the root cause still “in control”, the same results are happening. Within the next ten minutes I might be tempted with these same thoughts and feelings that are becoming progressively difficult to overcome. Now what?

Grace and human nature working hand in hand. I just wish my fallen human nature didn’t win so often.

• Taylor (the female version)

 

[whatevergirl]

*Hi Taylor;

I am sorry you’re struggling with this. I read through this thread, and you have rec’d great advice thus far. I just wanted to add that sometimes …fantasizing about another person is not about the other person–it’s more about what is going on within the person doing the fantasizing. If you don’t figure out what that might be (maybe you’re escaping some problems you’re having within your marriage, by the fantasy this man provides, etc) this man might not be the end of it. I think it’s GREAT that he is not available…it sounds like it could be a serious tempting situation, if he were. If we don’t figure out why we do the things we do, we will continue to repeat history. In other words, if it’s not this guy, it could be another one…if you continue to not take care of the root of why you are fantasizing. Granted, there might be something in this other person that triggers these thoughts…but, I think that he is just a distraction from what really is troubling you. I would suggest you talking with your husband, not so much about the fantasizing, but about any feelings you have been having about your marriage…or about your own life. Sometimes, fantasies happen when we ourselves have inner issues to heal from, or deal with. With God, all things are possible…and if you surrender your will, He will be faithful to do the rest.

Just some food for thought. God bless you!*

 

[former_Catholic]

Emotional wounds inflicted in childhood are often the root of such problems. This is definitely the case in this situation. That said, I’ve talked about it (the childhood issues) with my husband in reference to previous issues. I’ve prayed for healing, gone to counseling, and I’m still at square one: sinning. That can’t go on. It’s destructive at so many levels.
Therein lies the dilemma. With the root cause still “in control”, the same results are happening. Within the next ten minutes I might be tempted with these same thoughts and feelings that are becoming progressively difficult to overcome. Now what?

As long as this problem is regarded as your “sin” rather than as hard evidence that you were sinned against and most probably sexually abused to some extent as a child (and may or may not consciously remember), you are not going to solve it.

When Christ was scolding the guys about objectifying and dehumanizing and frightening and sexually harassing the women, He was saying that they were sinning for objectifying and dehumanizing and sexually harassing the women. The guys didn’t even see anything wrong with objectifying and dehumanizing and frightening and sexually harassing the women because women were regarded as property rather than as human beings deserving of being treated with human dignity (women just couldn’t bludgeon the guys to guarantee their respect by sheer physical prowess). The guys whined that they had always objectified and dehumanized and sexually harassed the women (in spite of the fact they considered themselves to be observant Jews), and so Christ raked them over the coals but good for that one, telling them they deserved to lose some body parts for the way they were treating those women. I’m sure they did.
Christ was not speaking *to *the women. Christ was speaking *on behalf of *the women.

Christ was furthermore certainly NOT talking about the long term effects of childhood sexual abuse on women, nor lecturing women on how to cope with those effects!

When a child is sexually abused, the child is overwhelmed, incapable of processing what went on, and the body and mind often develop a sort of split, such that the memory is held in the body as body memory, but not the consciousness as conscious memory.

The severely traumatized often grow up with no memory of the abuse until marriage, the birth of a child, a child reaching the same age as the abuse event, or perhaps the death of the abuser or some other life event occurs which inadvertently triggers off traumatic flashbacks of the abuse. The body holds and stores the memory locked away for years and years until such time that the conscious mind might finally be able to come to terms with, deal with, process, release, and heal the wounds. Traumatic flashback is traumatic, but it is evidence of a body attempting to heal an old traumatic wound by bringing it up into consciousness. It is a healing process.

Those who were somewhat less traumatized by abuse may not end up with such devastatingly traumatic debilitating flashbacks, but do tend to end up with an emergence of what they regard as “sexual fantasies,” usually triggered off by someone reminiscent of the abuser, usually a reflection of the abuse that occurred, and nearly impossible to repress back into the unconscious.
It is a natural process of the body trying to kick the consciousness in the butt and get it to recognize, acknowledge, and begin the process of consciously remembering, coming to terms with, dealing with, processing, working through, releasing, and healing those old wounds.

Multitudes of women have this problem. Good solid counseling with someone well experienced in dealing with childhood sexual abuse issues is exceedingly useful.
Standard Christian counseling generally relegates the woman to the status of “sinner”
and the problem as “an ongoing state of sin” rather than recognizing, acknowledging, and validating the fact that she was sinned against, as a child and is suffering the effects of the fact that her body is trying to get those old issues and wounds into her consciousness to be processed, worked through, released, and healed. It generally leaves the woman praying on her knees, feeling like she is dirt, not understanding what on earth is going on with her heart, mind, and body, and alienated from and unable to deal with her husband physically at all. There are a lot of sexless sacramental marriages out there because of institutionalized ignorance, lack of compassion, and lack of understanding of and sensitivity toward women and the very widespread issue of childhood sexual abuse. The Church does not have a particularly good track record on dealing with childhood sexual abuse. It’s also why I am a former Catholic.

 

[cthulhubryan]

That’s like saying “ok i’m going to give in to the sin of masturbation and viewing pornography because once I do that I will realize it’s disgusting and don’t wan to do it anymore”. That may have worked for you, but I really don’t think it will work for most people.

Besides, saying you have to give into a sin in order to defeat the sin is illogical and I think a very bad way to look at things.

I think you misunderstood. I was talking about thinking through to the consequences. IF you did it there would be consequences. Most people in that situation only look at the pleasure but if you mentally skip past the pleasure and focus on the consequences it becomes easier to avoid the temptation. In no way was I suggesting that anyone should actually give in to their fantasies but instead to try to focus on the real life consequences of a moment of impure thought.

 

[allhers]

Multitudes of women have this problem. Good solid counseling with someone well experienced in dealing with childhood sexual abuse issues is exceedingly useful.
Standard Christian counseling generally relegates the woman to the status of “sinner”
and the problem as “an ongoing state of sin” rather than recognizing, acknowledging, and validating the fact that she was sinned against, as a child and is suffering the effects of the fact that her body is trying to get those old issues and wounds into her consciousness to be processed, worked through, released, and healed. It generally leaves the woman praying on her knees, feeling like she is dirt, not understanding what on earth is going on with her heart, mind, and body, and alienated from and unable to deal with her husband physically at all. There are a lot of sexless sacramental marriages out there because of institutionalized ignorance, lack of compassion, and lack of understanding of and sensitivity toward women and the very widespread issue of childhood sexual abuse. The Church does not have a particularly good track record on dealing with childhood sexual abuse. It’s also why I am a former Catholic.

I’d like to speak to this part of your post because I completely disagree with it.

It was priest who helped me throughout my life, no other man, including any Doctor, ever helped me as much as priest did.

I’ve never felt like dirt when on my knees praying either, I fell nothing but the love of God.
Being in His Real Presence at Eucharistic Adoration is an experience that makes all pain, no matter what the cause, melt away. I am surrounded by His love, mercy and grace.

I will never be anything but a grateful Catholic, and Praise God no matter what.

I also will never trust any man, still, as much as I trust Priest. I thank God for the good, kind, holy men who have given their lives to HIM and who bring His Real Presence, in His Sacraments to us.

 

[former_Catholic]

I
I also will never trust any man, still, as much as I trust Priest.

Exactly.
Without working through your issues with some highly qualified female counselor in order to reclaim your female psyche and female body and some female consciousness of the female side of God in all of this issue, you can all too easily end up with a relationship with the priest (thank God you have apparently got a reasonable priest, an absolute necessity if you wish to remain Catholic!), a relationship with the abuser (fantasy), and an ever-distancing relationship with your husband, because, exactly, you will never trust any man as much as you trust your priest.
and that is not a healthy relationship, a healthy state of affairs for a married woman to have.

 

[twhite]

cthulhubryan, you are so right. When you look at the goodness you have at home and the consequences of a fantasy carried out, it snaps you back to reality pretty quickly. For me that works until the next temptation rolls around. But at least there’s a reality check!

former Catholic, I’m so sorry you are no longer practicing. It’s a beautiful faith. The Church is 100% full of sinners. Most of those sinners are pretty awesome people. Believe me, I know there are a few bad apples in the bunch. Despite that and weaknesses that result from their fallen nature, the Catholic faith is amazing. It is what has helped me through this so much.

As long as this problem is regarded as your “sin” rather than as hard evidence that you were sinned against and most probably sexually abused to some extent as a child (and may or may not consciously remember), you are not going to solve it.

I don’t want to unpack all of it here, but there is sexual abuse in my past. It began when I was 18 - not so much a child, not so much an adult. It continued for years and years, into my marriage. I knew what this person (of power) was doing was wrong but I was so sucked into the mind game I didn’t recognize it as abuse.

The severely traumatized often grow up with no memory of the abuse until marriage, the birth of a child, a child reaching the same age as the abuse event, or perhaps the death of the abuser or some other life event occurs which inadvertently triggers off traumatic flashbacks of the abuse. The body holds and stores the memory locked away for years and years until such time that the conscious mind might finally be able to come to terms with, deal with, process, release, and heal the wounds. Traumatic flashback is traumatic, but it is evidence of a body attempting to heal an old traumatic wound by bringing it up into consciousness. It is a healing process.

It was after my abuser died that I first recognized it as potentially being abuse. I talked to a priest about it at that time, the first time I had ever mentioned it to anyone. He said it was indeed abuse. I was horrified. He also drilled it in my head that I was sinned against and was not a sinner in that scenario. In my case it wasn’t “flashback” as it was a “slow recognition” but the denial was still very strong.

Those who were somewhat less traumatized by abuse may not end up with such devastatingly traumatic debilitating flashbacks, but do tend to end up with an emergence of what they regard as “sexual fantasies,” usually triggered off by someone reminiscent of the abuser, usually a reflection of the abuse that occurred, and nearly impossible to repress back into the unconscious. It is a natural process of the body trying to kick the consciousness in the butt and get it to recognize, acknowledge, and begin the process of consciously remembering, coming to terms with, dealing with, processing, working through, releasing, and healing those old wounds.

Bingo. At the time I met this man about whom I’m fantasizing, I was denying that the other relationship had been abusive. *As time went on, my feelings for him grew at the same time I fought accepting the fact that I had been abused. And he very much is reminiscent of my abuser. *

Folks, this is a new revelation to me. - this “parallel time frame”. These fantasies that I’ve been dealing were preceeded by a long period of growing “feelings” for this man, though I could never quite put my finger on what those feelings were. They just felt good and caused me to be attracted me to him.

At the same time, I really was thinking a lot about the abuse. The discussion in my mind about the topic went on for several years until I finally found someone to talk about it. It was only last year that I had my “ah-ha” moment and began to accept it. It truly was a graced moment from God. I spent a lot of time in front of the Blessed Sacrament sorting things out that day.

And overnight, literally right on the heels of me telling the story of the abusive relationship (which I hadn’t told since I told that priest in 1999) sexual fantasies about this guy began - and with a BANG. It was scary. Very scary.

It’s been over a year now since that day. I’ve worked through a lot with the abuse and obviously have a long way to go. Concurrently (can you believe this “parallel time frame”?) I’ve dealt with stronger feelings for this other guy who is “reminscent of the abuser”. During that time, the tendency to fantasize has always been there but of late it has really become intense. As Upbeat Dad so astutely pointed out, I’ve posted elsewhere about my current struggles with masturbation. Things have ramped up a bit over the past couple of months. Thus, my little trip CAF! Which begs the question: What has prompted it?

Whew. I’m exhausted. How about you? Now that we’ve all had our little therapy session for the day, we are still at square one, aren’t we?

Regardless of the cause, fantasizing about someone other than my spouse is an offense against God and against my husband. For that reason, I need to stop.

Now that I’ve learned a little more, it’s kind of bumming me out because I see that it has gone on as long as I’ve worked through the abuse - no exception - despite all attempts to stop. I’m still working through it. So where does that leave me? In my mind and heart with another man.

And that’s not good.

proud Catholic, thanks (understatement of the day).

• Taylor

 

[twhite]

Exactly.
Without working through your issues with some highly qualified female counselor in order to reclaim your female psyche and female body and some female consciousness of the female side of God in all of this issue, you can all too easily end up with a relationship with the priest (thank God you have apparently got a reasonable priest, an absolute necessity if you wish to remain Catholic!), a relationship with the abuser (fantasy), and an ever-distancing relationship with your husband, because, exactly, you will never trust any man as much as you trust your priest.
and that is not a healthy relationship, a healthy state of affairs for a married woman to have.

Amen. My female counselor was a great help. And not condemning. (Neither were any priests.) No offense guys, but it’s very helpful to have a woman counsel you in these matters.

 

[allhers]

Exactly.
Without working through your issues with some highly qualified female counselor in order to reclaim your female psyche and female body and some female consciousness of the female side of God in all of this issue, you can all too easily end up with a relationship with the priest (thank God you have apparently got a reasonable priest, an absolute necessity if you wish to remain Catholic!), a relationship with the abuser (fantasy), and an ever-distancing relationship with your husband, because, exactly, you will never trust any man as much as you trust your priest.
and that is not a healthy relationship, a healthy state of affairs for a married woman to have.

You missed MY point, I have already, with the grace of God, worked through the abuse that was done to me over many years when I was very young.

I have dealth with this with both men and women counselors and until I took it to the Priest of the Catholic Church it didn’t do me ANY good. None of the counselors helped me as much as the Sacraments (Jesus, HIMSELF). I have no personal relationship with ANY Priest, nor do I or any of them want that.

I also do not have any fantasies about my abuse and if I did, I would immediatley pray to be released from that, I never thought any of it was good, it always felt evil to me. IF I had any fantasies of any other man I would also know that too is evil and would take that to the Sacrament of Confession immediately too. I don’t need any woman or any other man to tell me what I already found in HIS Church with HIS Sacraments.

As for my husband, who but you said that I had a ever distant relationship with him? I didn’t even mention in this thread if I was even Married or not (I am, but our relationship is just fine, thank you.) When I said that I still trust Priest more than any other man, I was speaking to what YOU said about YOU not being a Catholic anymore, I personally am still a Catholic and never will go anywhere except to HIS Priest for the Sacraments.

I do not just go to one Priest for the Sacraments, wherever I happen to be in this world, I can go to ANY Catholic Church and to ANY Catholic Priest for the Sacraments. I don’t have just one Priest that I confess to or receive the Sacraments from. I have lived in 5 different States in my lifetime and have gone to many different Catholic Churchs in my life and always there is a Priest there, sometimes, two, sometimes three or more. I have never in my life felt safer anywhere than I do in a Catholic Church right in front of JESUS.

You must think that there is only one way to heal from abuse, I happen to know that Jesus, present in His Sacraments is the only way for me.

 

[twhite]

I have dealth with this with both men and women counselors and until I took it to the Priest of the Catholic Church it didn’t do me ANY good. None of the counselors helped me as much as the Sacraments (Jesus, HIMSELF). I have no personal relationship with ANY Priest, nor do I or any of them want that.

Greeeting, allhers!

Amen to this as well. The female counselor I went to helped with the psychological end of things, and the fact that she was a female sure was helpful at many different levels. The priest I’ve seen has helped with the spiritual end of things. Nothing is a substitute for the Sacrament of Confession and what a priest tells you in persona there. All priests can be trusted to hold your sins in confidence when confessed under the sacramental seal. I’ve talked to quite a few priests about my situation in confession, and always trusted them implicitly - that they would keep that conversation in confidence.

Now, onto a different kind of trust. I think by virtue of the vocation, priests automatically earn a degree of trust. However, each individual priest has to earn total trust, and that may be what former Catholic was alluding to. This country (world) has seen too many priests violate trust. For us simply hand it to them blindly wouldn’t be wise.

Trusting any man too much, emotional intimacy, can interfere with a marriage relationship.

You must think that there is only one way to heal from abuse, I happen to know that Jesus, present in His Sacraments is the only way for me.

That word, “healing”, gets thrown around a lot doesn’t it? There seems to be references to psychological healing, emotional healing, and spiritual healing. Certainly some kinds of healing seems to come with time. Some comes through talking things out under guidance (therapy). In the sacraments, through adoration and prayer, we experience healing. Which kind? Spiritual? Emotional? Psychological? Some, none or all? Another question rolling around in my pea brain.

Any comments on this would be appreciated. Thanks so much.

• Taylor

P.S. former Catholic, I didn’t mean to call you “proud” Catholic at the end of a previous post. Freudian slip? You know we welcome you home any time!

 

[allhers]

Greeeting, allhers!

Amen to this as well. The female counselor I went to helped with the psychological end of things, and the fact that she was a female sure was helpful at many different levels. The priest I’ve seen has helped with the spiritual end of things. Nothing is a substitute for the Sacrament of Confession and what a priest tells you in persona there. All priests can be trusted to hold your sins in confidence when confessed under the sacramental seal. I’ve talked to quite a few priests about my situation in confession, and always trusted them implicitly - that they would keep that conversation in confidence.

Now, onto a different kind of trust. I think by virtue of the vocation, priests automatically earn a degree of trust. However, each individual priest has to earn total trust, and that may be what former Catholic was alluding to. This country (world) has seen too many priests violate trust. For us simply hand it to them blindly wouldn’t be wise.

Trusting any man too much, emotional intimacy, can interfere with a marriage relationship.

That word, “healing”, gets thrown around a lot doesn’t it? There seems to be references to psychological healing, emotional healing, and spiritual healing. Certainly some kinds of healing seems to come with time. Some comes through talking things out under guidance (therapy). In the sacraments, through adoration and prayer, we experience healing. Which kind? Spiritual? Emotional? Psychological? Some, none or all? Another question rolling around in my pea brain.

Any comments on this would be appreciated. Thanks so much.

• Taylor

P.S. former Catholic, I didn’t mean to call you “proud” Catholic at the end of a previous post. Freudian slip? You know we welcome you home any time!

Well actually many of the Priests have suggested that I talk things over with the Blessed Mother and ask for her help. I have the name, all hers (allhers). I trust her with my spiritual life as well. Jesus is simply ALL I need and she leads all to her Son. When I was little, when all of this was happening, I immediately took all my fears to her and she lead me right to Jesus, God is just amazing to me, in some way, I understood that He loved me and was right there with me through it all and that no matter what He would always love me.

Of course, being very small, I had to go through a lot in life to get to where I am today.
I have always known that God loved me, but I use to fear that I had offended Him so much that He really just didn’t care about me anymore. (How sad is that?) Of course He loves us all the time, it isn’t Him that moves away, its us.

I’m not saying that there is anything wrong with therapy, in some ways it is a very interesting process that I just wish would have moved along quicker, I found that when I was in a group setting that I got help much faster that way. Sometimes, for me, just hearing others speak of their own experiences helped me in many ways.

But…for ME, I just wish I had stuck with the Sacraments all along, (I wasn’t going to confession for a time, why? I don’t know, I guess in that regard I fell away.) However, as far as psychological healing, emotional healing, and spiritual healing, I believe that the good Lord always puts us where we hear what we need to hear. Like this forum for example, I even find this beneficial to be around others that are struggling along and leading Sacramental lives and relying on the Lord.

I know we are human and need one another, I’m not saying that no human being has ever helped me, what I am saying though, is that leading a Sacramental life and blindly trusting the good Lord is what has worked for me. It doesn’t matter to me what Priest I go to when I go to confession, he could be the biggest sinner on the face of the earth for all I know, still, Jesus works through him, God doesn’t need the Priest to be in the state of grace in order to give His grace to us.

Fortunately though, I have had the happy experience of having many, many holy Priests throughout my life and when I go to Holy Communion, or Confession, my heart, soul, and mind is on Jesus, not the Priest

I think I’ve already explained, and will again, that I have NO relationship with ANY Priest, none of them have ever done anything to interfere with my Marriage in any way, shape or form. I have no emotional attachment to them. I just trust them more than any other group of men in this world because they bring Jesus to me. I thank God for them!!