Fantasy Magic =/= Real Magic(k)

[The_Catholic]

Hmm… I guess you could say that’s a very well written analysis. I’m kinda surprised! I feel the same way about Kingdom Hearts too. It’s one of my most favorite video games. X3 My only complaint though would be the way you put Harry Potter on number 3. It kinda strikes me more as a number 2 imo though I do have a problem with the supposed liberal ideals it is said to be promoting.

Well, people use the Bible for their own agenda too, you know? Some pick and choose verses that they think justifies them hurting others, some use it to start their own cult or unorthodox belief system. Yet we do not cast away the Holy Scriptures. I mean, the Bible is above beyond Harry Potter, but you see my point?

People look into things and get what they want out of them or imagine what they want. Heck, there is even a few “steamy” verses in the Bible, even a few other things I won’t mention. So, in the end, people have to learn to control themselves.

That being said, I am no fan of J.K. Rowlling. Don’t like the outfits, don’t like the characters, don’t like the “humor” and especially don’t care for the way things and action events are described. Though I never read the entire series, still, I have to say J.K. Rowling= BORING!

But you know what? My wife’s grandmother at 90 was reading them. LOL.

 

[TrueBlueAstrax]

Hmm… I guess you could say that’s a very well written analysis. I’m kinda surprised! I feel the same way about Kingdom Hearts too. It’s one of my most favorite video games. X3 My only complaint though would be the way you put Harry Potter on number 3. It kinda strikes me more as a number 2 imo though I do have a problem with the supposed liberal ideals it is said to be promoting.

It’s not just liberal ideals. It’s also got some shockingly horrific symbolism in there. Such as the tree-people i heard about. It’s supposed to symbolize abortion, because they hang upside down and you behead them, which is the way abortions are done. Scary.

And I’m glad you like my little chart, I’ve found it very useful, although I’m sure it could be perfected.
If you really want to learn more about the subject of good fantasy, J.R.R. Tolkien wrote a very good book, “On Fairy Stories”, and I highly suggest it.
LostWanderer, I hope you become a famous Manga writer, we need more guys like you in that feild

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Guys, I really wouldn’t seek “natural powers,” if I were you. What you might think is a natural power could actually wind up being the occult in disguise. Sometimes it does disguise itself as a natural principle or power, such as “The Secret,” and some of these other movements. Psychics also often claim their powers are part of nature, nothing more.

Satan uses this disguise to steer Christians into unsafe places. Besides, seeking power, even if the power really IS natural, is not a worthwhile pursuit. We are called to seek to promote and glorify Christ. Seeking power is about promoting and glorifying the self. The Scripture says, “He who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.” We are called to die to the self; seeking power is raising the self up. So I really, strongly recommend not seeking these things.

Enjoy them, by all means, within the realm of fantasy . They’re great fun to read about in fiction, but leave them there too, for safety’s sake.

In fact, when you are all in Heaven, you will be able to do quite a few of these things anyway. And you might die any time. So any time, you might suddenly get those powers! Just think of that!

 

[Havard]

Desiring certain extra-sensory powers, so that one might do good with them, might sound like a good idea, but it reminds me of Boromir advocating the use of the ‘One Ring.’ It’s no coincidence that the heroes of that story relied on their courage and God-given talents. Tolkein didn’t come up with this lesson, either… the ‘One Ring’ is based on Plato’s fable about the ‘Ring of Gyges.’

“If you could imagine any one obtaining this power of becoming invisible, and never doing any wrong or touching what was another’s, he would be thought by the lookers-on to be a most wretched idiot, although they would praise him to one another’s faces, and keep up appearances with one another from a fear that they too might suffer injustice.” - Plato’s Republic

I think Plato was right, we humans fall to temptation too easily.

I believe we should exercise our minds and bodies, but when the day comes where people can alter their DNA, and use nanotechnology and cybernetic enchancements to become ‘more than human’, I’ll happily remain 100% natural.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Besides, seeking power, even if the power really IS natural, is not a worthwhile pursuit. We are called to seek to promote and glorify Christ. Seeking power is about promoting and glorifying the self. The Scripture says, “He who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.” We are called to die to the self; seeking power is raising the self up. So I really, strongly recommend not seeking these things.

Not really. With great power comes great responsibility. Even in the real world there are all kinds of natural power that can be devastating already. From the deadly techniques in some martial arts to the political power held by rulers that could rock nations. Any of these can be used in both good or bad ways. It doesn’t give power itself though an inherent moral alignment. One can use such powers to glorify Christ in their own way and some seek such power just for that. If it were really possible to gain a truly natural power that could silence the likes of Richard Dawkins and James Randi, well, expect me to fall in line.

Desiring certain extra-sensory powers, so that one might do good with them, might sound like a good idea, but it reminds me of Boromir advocating the use of the ‘One Ring.’ It’s no coincidence that the heroes of that story relied on their courage and God-given talents.

The Ring was inherently evil from the beginning, there’s the difference. And if you might want to remember that even the “talents” of some of the characters aren’t really talents but racial attributes (an elf’s speed, a dwarf’s hardiness).

I believe we should exercise our minds and bodies, but when the day comes where people can alter their DNA, and use nanotechnology and cybernetic enchancements to become ‘more than human’, I’ll happily remain 100% natural.

Sadly this reminds me of an anime called Gundam Seed. It was about a war between two factions, the Naturals (normal human beings) and the Coordinators (genetically modified humans). I never watched it much and my reason for that is because it was all so tragic with the way people of both sides committed atrocities at each other. :nope:

 

[Religio71]

I’ve had people tell me occasionally on why I don’t ever fantasize with being shoulder to shoulder with the saints or Biblical figures. Well, sorry, but they don’t make good party members. I have friends who do. Wise teachers like St. Paul or Moses are more likely to be depicted in RPGs as NPCs (non-player characters). You can’t imagine them holding swords, casting spells, or defending against hordes of monsters. :nope:

Well, these are so far the most typical arguments I’ve heard. Note this was not meant to antagonize anybody but merely a clarification of people’s misconception of fantasy fiction. Thank you and God Bless.

haha, actually I would see the saints as the clerics in fantasy games like World of Warcraft or Dungeons and Dragons type games. The cleric has a special bond with their deity, and works various miracles. They typically are supportive characters, and will heal and bless party members. Our Catholic priests can do this too! In fact, as members of the laity, we can bless certain things as well.

Clerics are awesome

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

haha, actually I would see the saints as the clerics in fantasy games like World of Warcraft or Dungeons and Dragons type games. The cleric has a special bond with their deity, and works various miracles. They typically are supportive characters, and will heal and bless party members. Our Catholic priests can do this too! In fact, as members of the laity, we can bless certain things as well.

Clerics are awesome

LOL! Yeah I know! I love it when they make characters like that! However, sometimes the depictions tend to be something that Traditionalists find offensive you know? It’s not exactly in line with the real thing anymore.

P.S.

You know, one of my most common RPG-style fantasies is usually I’m some scary, notoriously feared warlock who, through a series of crazy circumstances, ends up being the bodyguard of some cute saintly girl with miraculous healing powers.

 

[Eucharisted]

I haven’t finished reading the “Morals of Magic” yet but I’d like to point out that even when the reality of magic is set in a world like ours, why aren’t the wizards and witches in the story being plagued by demonic attacks as practitioners of the occult in the real world always are?

I think the better thing to say is that real magic is not like the magic you read in books.

You’re using a fallacy (false dilemma), so your whole argument is invalid.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

You’re using a fallacy (false dilemma), so your whole argument is invalid.

Do you have a better answer then? A better explanation as to why magic in books such as Harry Potter doesn’t have the same consequences in reality?

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Not really. With great power comes great responsibility. Even in the real world there are all kinds of natural power that can be devastating already. From the deadly techniques in some martial arts to the political power held by rulers that could rock nations. Any of these can be used in both good or bad ways. It doesn’t give power itself though an inherent moral alignment. One can use such powers to glorify Christ in their own way and some seek such power just for that. If it were really possible to gain a truly natural power that could silence the likes of Richard Dawkins and James Randi, well, expect me to fall in line.

Raw power itself doesn’t have a moral alignment. However, seeking power because of wanting to have power is about glorifying the self. You’re desiring it because it’s cool, because imagining it is so neat. I’ve felt the same way, wanting to fly for the sensation and the experience, not because it would glorify God, and praying that one day I would be able to fly. There’s nothing inherently wrong with flying- some of the saints have done that in Christ. But those kinds of desires are about glorifying the self, which is why the saints strongly recommend against them. And “natural powers” are a deadly deception out there in the world around us. Psychics and people involved in “The Secret,” and many people who openly say they’re practicing magic will tell you they’re simply using natural power according to the laws of the universe, not anything that comes from demonic entities. There is a lot of peril in what you’re desiring.

If Jesus didn’t design you to have “natural powers,” don’t seek them. He made your body just the way he wanted it, gave you arms and hands and a mouth to speak and influence the world for good. You also can pray, and God through prayer can work extraordinary things through you. He may even choose to gift you with miracles or bilocation or telepathy or soaring into the sky or any other supernatural phenomenon He chooses, in the future. That’s His call, but according to the saints, He only gives such things to those who are very humble, and they recommend strongly not seeking them. Jesus said, “he who exalts himself will be humbled and he who humbles himself will be exalted.” That’s really what we need to think about, humbling ourselves, making ourselves nothing, not elevating ourselves with power.

Part of humility is accepting the lot God has given us. God can give you any powers He wants you to have any time He chooses, as He has done for many saints, and His supernatural gifts are far greater than anything you might seek out yourself. If you were to desire any of the supernatural powers, it makes the most sense to desire those, but also to wait for God to give them in His timing, if He chooses to give them at all, for He knows better than any of us how best to use us and what to give us.

There are supposedly “natural powers” in the world around us, and people partaking of them have often had to go through exorcisms or immense spiritual warfare to become free. They profess to be “natural powers,” but this is a deception from the Devil. This is very dangerous territory, and seeking glory for the self and power for the self is at the crux of these desires. They aren’t safe, and they can lead to the sin of witchcraft. For many people they do, because those people go into certain powers thinking they are safe. I know one lady who is in that situation, who thinks that her mental powers are her own natural psychic abilities, but who appears to me to be very possibly accessing demonic magic. It’s so unsafe. God can give us anything He wants, and He is the perfect Judge of what our souls can handle and what they can’t. We should seek nothing for ourselves and everything for Him. That is the way to God and to all the glories of His Kingdom.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Raw power itself doesn’t have a moral alignment. However, seeking power because of wanting to have power is about glorifying the self. You’re desiring it because it’s cool, because imagining it is so neat. I’ve felt the same way, wanting to fly for the sensation and the experience, not because it would glorify God, and praying that one day I would be able to fly. There’s nothing inherently wrong with flying- some of the saints have done that in Christ. But those kinds of desires are about glorifying the self, which is why the saints strongly recommend against them. And “natural powers” are a deadly deception out there in the world around us. Psychics and people involved in “The Secret,” and many people who openly say they’re practicing magic will tell you they’re simply using natural power according to the laws of the universe, not anything that comes from demonic entities. There is a lot of peril in what you’re desiring.

If Jesus didn’t design you to have “natural powers,” don’t seek them. He made your body just the way he wanted it, gave you arms and hands and a mouth to speak and influence the world for good. You also can pray, and God through prayer can work extraordinary things through you. He may even choose to gift you with miracles or bilocation or telepathy or soaring into the sky or any other supernatural phenomenon He chooses, in the future. That’s His call, but according to the saints, He only gives such things to those who are very humble, and they recommend strongly not seeking them. Jesus said, “he who exalts himself will be humbled and he who humbles himself will be exalted.” That’s really what we need to think about, humbling ourselves, making ourselves nothing, not elevating ourselves with power.

I’m still not so sure if the desire for power in of itself is completely evil. Sure it can go out of control but there have always been measures for that. I think this has more to do with the kind of power being desired. If I abandoned the desire to wield magic and replaced it with something more realistic like learning a lethal martial art or mastering a gun, would I still be acting within the way God designed me? I mean I don’t need to go visit questionable psychics or anything, I’d just train my body in a class or go to the shooting range to improve my aim. (Speaking of which, wouldn’t that make the desire to improve oneself the same as seeking power? I mean it does glorify the self in a way. )

Part of humility is accepting the lot God has given us. God can give you any powers He wants you to have any time He chooses, as He has done for many saints, and His supernatural gifts are far greater than anything you might seek out yourself. If you were to desire any of the supernatural powers, it makes the most sense to desire those, but also to wait for God to give them in His timing, if He chooses to give them at all, for He knows better than any of us how best to use us and what to give us.

I guess I’ll keep my fingers crossed then.

 

[Eucharisted]

If you desire power simply for the sake of having power, that is evil.

If you desire power for your sake, or for the sake of others, that is evil.

If you desre power for God’s sake, but wish to obtain it your way, that is evil.

If you desire power for God’s sake, and wish to obtain it God’s way, than that is good.

And any desire for magic - real or fictional - is evil. Magic is occultic power, and the Church has stated there is no black magic and white magic: all magic is black, all magic is evil.

 

[Miserissima]

I enjoyed your 1st post, that there is a real of fiction where magic exists, then there are those who play at having powers, adn finally, there are those who truly tap into dark forces.

Before it got all Taoist, I really, really enjoyed the Earthsea series (before it was ruined by the by SciFi channel).

Yeah, sometimes I pray to God that I could use some form of natural but still extraordinary power such as telepathy… things like that usually shut up the skeptics in less than a heartbeat.

Who has never fantisized about “supernatural” power? When I was little, I had WonderWoman Undaroos. I would don them and spin around in circles just knowing that I’d turn into Lynda Carter!

Enjoy them, by all means, within the realm of fantasy . They’re great fun to read about in fiction, but leave them there too, for safety’s sake.

:clapping::clapping: Amen. :clapping::clapping:

That’s why only those who are mature and solid in their spiritual formation should allow themselves (or, in the case of children, their parents may allow them) to read SF/F.

I haven’t finished reading the “Morals of Magic” yet but I’d like to point out that even when the reality of magic is set in a world like ours, why aren’t the wizards and witches in the story being plagued by demonic attacks as practitioners of the occult in the real world always are?

They are,and I wish that “Morals” addressed this without making it sound like Fundamentalist hysteria.

These forces are manipulating the individual witch/wizard to obtain their own ends, and/or and are corrupting others by enticing people away from the Faith by the “happy” example of the life of the witch/wizard/warlock/whatever. Thing is, it’s a short-term happiness with Hell to pay.

The occult is to be shunned. However, the occult is not fantasy. Fantasy has to be kept in perspective, else it may becaose a gateway to the occult.

An interest is one thing, but obsession and a bending of reality is not healthy.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

They are,and I wish that “Morals” addressed this without making it sound like Fundamentalist hysteria.

These forces are manipulating the individual witch/wizard to obtain their own ends, and/or and are corrupting others by enticing people away from the Faith by the “happy” example of the life of the witch/wizard/warlock/whatever. Thing is, it’s a short-term happiness with Hell to pay.

What I mean is why aren’t the spellcasters in worlds like Harry Potter suffering from such demonic consequences? I mean one can draw a parallel between this and super hero fiction you know. As much as it looks cool to beat up bad guys in fiction, vigilantism is frowned upon here in the real world. Why can’t people just few fantasy fiction with the same perspective instead of just outright bashing it? Being a spellcaster in the world of, let’s say, Final Fantasy is cool but being a “spellcaster” in the real world is not.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

If you desire power for your sake, or for the sake of others, that is evil.

If you desre power for God’s sake, but wish to obtain it your way, that is evil.

If you desire power for God’s sake, and wish to obtain it God’s way, than that is good.

Don’t you think you’re being extreme with the parts there (the ones underlined)? In this world magic isn’t the only source of “power”. Real power exists already. If I take a gun or master a deadly move, I give myself a seriously lethal power don’t you think? The same can be said if I ran for President. Obtaining such power is pretty much “my way” you know. Suppose if I desire such power to protect the people I love or to defend the Church from those anti-theistic desecrators like the ones who had mocked the Eucharist? Am I evil for that? How about those who wished to run for office in order to preserve the sancity of life and the holiness of traditional marriage?

You might want to think about and consider your choice of labels for people.

 

[Miserissima]

What I mean is why aren’t the spellcasters in worlds like Harry Potter suffering from such demonic consequences? .

Because it’s fantasy. Real-life is bound by rules that are stronger than a writer’s imagination.

Why can’t people just few fantasy fiction with the same perspective instead of just outright bashing it? Being a spellcaster in the world of, let’s say, Final Fantasy is cool but being a “spellcaster” in the real world is not.

Let me see if I am understanding you correctly: you want to know why fantasy magic is okay, but real-life ‘magic’ is not? (I’m not trying to be dense, just looking for clarification.)

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Because it’s fantasy. Real-life is bound by rules that are stronger than a writer’s imagination.

Let me see if I am understanding you correctly: you want to know why fantasy magic is okay, but real-life ‘magic’ is not? (I’m not trying to be dense, just looking for clarification.)

It’s just that when I read the first part of the Morals of Magic, it seemd to imply that due to Harry Potter being set in world just like ours, it is questionable. :\

 

[Eucharisted]

Don’t you think you’re being extreme with the parts there (the ones underlined)? In this world magic isn’t the only source of “power”. Real power exists already. If I take a gun or master a deadly move, I give myself a seriously lethal power don’t you think? The same can be said if I ran for President. Obtaining such power is pretty much “my way” you know. Suppose if I desire such power to protect the people I love or to defend the Church from those anti-theistic desecrators like the ones who had mocked the Eucharist? Am I evil for that? How about those who wished to run for office in order to preserve the sancity of life and the holiness of traditional marriage?

You might want to think about and consider your choice of labels for people.

The former is in the context of selfish motives.

The latter is pure disobedience to God.

We must submit to God in all things, or else perish. Adam and Eve learned this the hard way.

 

[Eucharisted]

It’s just that when I read the first part of the Morals of Magic, it seemd to imply that due to Harry Potter being set in world just like ours, it is questionable. :\

If Harry Potter is set in our world, than it is indeed questionable, for the children would be engaging in the occult - even if it is unlike the occult in real life, it would still be the occult.

 

[Miserissima]

I hope I am following you…

Why fantasy magic is okay:
Fantasy magic is okay only when it is understood in the context of being fantasy. It should not be inciting others to manipulate others or their environment.

Note that in most literature, the nature of its use is within the context of either “good” or “evil.” The dualist nature of such power is only representative of God when there is more light than dark, simply because Christians do not believe that evil is as powerful as good.

Why real-life ‘magic’ is not oaky:
It seeks to subjugate another’s will. (Think of why the cruciatis curse is illegal in the HP series!) Add to that a God-rules-over-all demention, and magic in our reality attempts to manipulate and distort the balance of nature which should be left to God’s care alone. Those who try to control others and circumstances by super-natural means are playing God and therefore are challenging the Almighty, inviting demons, leading others astray, and ultimately fall in love with their own ‘power,’ to the damnation of their souls.