Fast this Friday Dec. 27

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“…there is no obligation in the United States to practice penance on Friday…” – Jimmy Akin

jimmyakin.com/2004/07/since_tomorrow_.html

As Jimmy Akin points out in the link above, the Code of Canon Law leaves the question of whether doing penance on a Friday is “required” to a Conference of Bishops. That decision is not left up to an individual bishop. Despite your claims to the contrary, Jmcrae, there is not a single region in the United States where American Catholics are “required” to do penance each Friday.

Is that simple enough for you?
 
Correct. There is indeed no such obligation anywhere in the dioceses of the United States of America.
 
Irish_Cabbie said:
“…there is no obligation in the United States to practice penance on Friday…” – Jimmy Akin

jimmyakin.com/2004/07/since_tomorrow_.html

As Jimmy Akin points out in the link above, the Code of Canon Law leaves the question of whether doing penance on a Friday is “required” to a Conference of Bishops. That decision is not left up to an individual bishop. Despite your claims to the contrary, Jmcrae, there is not a single region in the United States where American Catholics are “required” to do penance each Friday.

Is that simple enough for you?
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Right. “We urge you to do penance” means the exact opposite - it means “do as you please.” Got it.
 
“We urge you to do penance” does not mean that one will burn in hell for eating a pork chop on Friday the 27th of December.

There is such a thing as balance; and tradition; and reason; and indeed law.

And in this case, the law in the (arch)dioceses of America is quite clear. No obligation exists to abstain from meat on 27 December. Or to perform an act of penance. Of course such practices are eminently laudable. But mandatory? No.
 
AlexV said:
“We urge you to do penance” does not mean that one will burn in hell for eating a pork chop on Friday the 27th of December.
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Disobedience to the Bishop is a mortal sin, however. If the Bishop says, 'I urge you" then is that not a command? 🤷

(If your boss said it, or your mother said it, it would be, I think.)
 
jmcrae said:
Disobedience to the Bishop is a mortal sin, however. If the Bishop says, 'I urge you" then is that not a command? 🤷

(If your boss said it, or your mother said it, it would be, I think.)
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:banghead: You really want to make it all a mortal sin for everyone, huh Judith? Where are the 3 conditions? You were a catechist, no? Urging or encouraging is not a direct command. Let’s not stretch this to make your view the only one that is valid. You are a lay person, not a bishop, and have no authority to impose this on viewers here.
 
Actually, it is misleading to say that “disobedience to a bishop is a mortal sin” without qualification. One’s bishop’s orders do not bind under pain of mortal sin without exception.

In any case, on matters pertaining to church discipline, of which Friday penitential practices are a prime example, what is required under pain of sin is set by the Holy See and those to whom they delegate their power, in this case the national conference. Individual bishops can recommend, urge, however you wish to put it, but it’s simply false to say those recommendations bind under pain of mortal sin.
 
AlexV said:
Actually, it is misleading to say that “disobedience to a bishop is a mortal sin” without qualification. One’s bishop’s orders do not bind under pain of mortal sin without exception.

In any case, on matters pertaining to church discipline, of which Friday penitential practices are a prime example, what is required under pain of sin is set by the Holy See and those to whom they delegate their power, in this case the national conference. Individual bishops can recommend, urge, however you wish to put it, but it’s simply false to say those recommendations bind under pain of mortal sin.
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Then why do they bother to say anything at all? If it means nothing, then it’s awfully expensive nothing.
 
I didn’t realize that as Catholics we lived in a world where you have either 1) mortal sin or 2) nothing when it comes to episcopal pronouncements. You know, there is quite a lot between those two extremes.
 
AlexV said:
I didn’t realize that as Catholics we lived in a world where you have either 1) mortal sin or 2) nothing when it comes to episcopal pronouncements. You know, there is quite a lot between those two extremes.
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🤷

A thing either exists or does not exist. I can’t find any in-between on that.
 
You can’t possibly be serious. All of moral theology is rooted on the idea that there is indeed nuance, there is indeed texture, there isn’t simply black and white on matters such as this.
 
jmcrae said:
Right. “We urge you to do penance” means the exact opposite - it means “do as you please.” Got it.
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Urging someone to do something and requiring someone to do something are entirely two different things. It’s a pity the distinction is lost on you.
 
Irish_Cabbie said:
Urging someone to do something and requiring someone to do something are entirely two different things. It’s a pity the distinction is lost on you.
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Well, I remember when I was young, we had a manager who said to my friend, “I urge you to do this first, and then do that,” and he took it as a suggestion rather than a command, and didn’t do either of the tasks, but did something else instead. He was on the street looking for a new job the next day.

So, no - call me crazy all you want - I don’t take “I urge you” as a mere suggestion.
 
jmcrae said:
Well, I remember when I was young, we had a manager who said to my friend, “I urge you to do this first, and then do that,” and he took it as a suggestion rather than a command, and didn’t do either of the tasks, but did something else instead. He was on the street looking for a new job the next day.

So, no - call me crazy all you want - I don’t take “I urge you” as a mere suggestion.
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I didn’t call you crazy. That said, “I urge you” to buy a dictionary. 🙂
 
Irish_Cabbie said:
I didn’t call you crazy. That said, “I urge you” to buy a dictionary.
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I have one, thank you. The word “urge” comes from the same root as the word “urgent”.

ur·gent
ˈərjənt/
adjective
1.
(of a state or situation) requiring immediate action or attention.
“the situation is far more urgent than politicians are admitting”
synonyms: acute, pressing, dire, desperate, critical, serious, grave, intense, crying, burning, compelling, extreme, exigent, high-priority, top-priority
 
The Catholic Church doesn’t function like a business with at will employees.
 
And, one might add, bishops are not miniature gods; nor are they petty despots whose every urging demands obedience at the risk of mortal sin. Such an understanding of episcopal authority…indeed of papal authority…is utterly at variance with authentic Catholic tradition, though it is rather typical of a species of ultramontane extremism that seems determined to reduce religion to a set of black and white directives that demand unconditional obedience without distinction or nuance in matters where the Church does not and has never demanded such behavior.

Or, put another way, no, Americans are not obligated to abstain from meat or perform penance on the Friday of St. John’s Day, though penitential practices would of course be laudable and grace filled. Failure to do them, however, is not a mortal sin.
 
The Bishops’ Statement in the US uses the language “commend.”
  1. Among the works of voluntary self-denial and personal penance which we especially **commend **to our people for the future observance of Friday, even though we hereby terminate the traditional law of abstinence binding under pain of sin, as the sole prescribed means of observing Friday, we give first place to abstinence from flesh meat.We do so in the hope that the Catholic community will ordinarily continue to abstain from meat by free choice [a/k/a “voluntary”] as formerly we did in obedience to Church law. Our expectation is based on the following considerations.
I think it is a noteworthy observation that excessively scrupulous people who find mortal sin on every corner, have a strong tendency to judge everyone else like themselves - a belief that people commit mortal sins regularly.

Judith, please realize the futility and harm you are doing here, as was the case on another thread. You are not the Bishops’ superior, not even a priest, just a simple lay person who intends to bind the faithful to your principles. You live in Canada, and maybe things are different there. But for us in the US, we owe no obedience to your false ideology. Please stop.
 
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