Fast way to learn NFP?

[pensmama87]

:thumbsup:Sorry Cross posted with you, but glad someone else holds the same opinion!

Count me in on that as well. It’s a joint effort.

You may find, too, that there are lots of reasons to use NFP that have nothing to do with religion. Taking Charge of Your Fertility is actually a secular book (it presents the option to use barrier methods during fertile times if not willing to abstain, which is not in line with Catholic teaching) and it convinced me that there were lots of reasons to avoid hormonal birth control, and I had already decided that barrier methods were a pain (in some cases, literally.)

When I initially converted to Catholicism, I actually felt very similarly as you do now. Actually learning the science behind NFP, and combining that with my frustration at contraception, opened me up to the idea that maybe there was something to Church teaching on the subject, after all. You might find you experience the same.

 

[Xantippe]

Yeah–on the internet so many people botch the fiance/fiancee distinction that it’s actually surprising when anybody gets it right.

OP, you sound 1) in a hurry 2) resentful of your fiance 3) resentful of Catholic teaching on artificial birth control.

This is a recipe for failure, both in NFP and in marriage in general. If you want a successful marriage, you need to fix 2 and 3 at the very minimum.

I’m not going to get all hypocritical about asking you to wait longer to get married (as my husband and I got married on approximately the same schedule as you or faster), but I didn’t have either #2 or #3 impeding our ability to be happily married.

NFP is going to be a huge part of your marriage if that’s what your fiance wants. It’s not just a minor detail–get this right.

Also, have you talked about your hopes for family size and future career for you? This stuff will change as time goes by, but you should have a clear shared vision to start with.

Best wishes!

 

[QuasiCatholic]

When I say I have to learn it, I don’t mean reading the chart – we both have advanced college degrees, I’m pretty sure we can read a chart.

I mean I’m the one who was to MAKE the chart. I seriously doubt anyone here has their husband checking their mucus for them each day

 

[maryjk]

PM me the answer to this question (or you can post it in reply, I’ll respect you either way - keep in mind that I help to teach this material and I ask from my heart and not out of meanness, and I take it very seriously… I do not want to stand before our Lord and try to explain how I lost a soul because of my error as a catechist):

Who ordinarily, and actually, administers the Sacrament of Marriage to the Bride and Groom?

( Please, no help from the peanut gallery … let’s see if QC’s marriage prep and RCIA program provided at least this fundamental aspect of the sacrament)

And what if it didn’t? Should she shop around until she finds an RCIA program that meets your criteria?

Sorry, but that sounds pretty condescending. Quizzing someone on a forum about what they’ve learned at their parish.

Your fiancé needs to understand that he can’t have intercourse on these days and why… and furthermore, he isn’t allowed to go “shower” to release the urge either (CCC: 2352) - especially as a married man. Your fiancé has to support you as well as you support him during those times where abstinence is required - there will be times where the desire to consummate the marital act will be so strong by one or the other (or both) and it is almost always during that time where you both have to abstain (trust me, been doing this a long time) and well… BOTH you and your fiancé must be open to the potential life that may result from the act between day 6 and day 19(25).

My Prayers for you and fiancé, please, slow this down a tad, you wont regret it.

Sorry, my husband knows the basics, but he certainly doesn’t know more than me about NFP.

That doesn’t mean that my husband isn’t supportive; that he doesn’t love me. And it doesn’t mean that he goes off to the shower, either.

To the OP:
Yes, you can learn NFP quickly. Obviously the more time you have to observe changes, the better you will be at reading those. But I learned it in one evening. And I learned it from a book. There weren’t any instructors around.

 

[maryjk]

When I say I have to learn it, I don’t mean reading the chart – we both have advanced college degrees, I’m pretty sure we can read a chart.

I mean I’m the one who was to MAKE the chart. I seriously doubt anyone here has their husband checking their mucus for them each day

Don’t be too sure. I have had people here tell me that they couldn’t believe that my husband hasn’t ever checked my cervix for me.

 

[Xantippe]

When I say I have to learn it, I don’t mean reading the chart – we both have advanced college degrees, I’m pretty sure we can read a chart.

I mean I’m the one who was to MAKE the chart. I seriously doubt anyone here has their husband checking their mucus for them each day

That would be TMI. I’ll just say that while I take my temperature, my husband fills in the chart.

 

[Xantippe]

I should mention that we also learned NFP out of a book (the Kippley’s big fat NFP book) and we didn’t have that many months of charts before we got married. The more the better, of course.

 

[jlc2k2]

I think my story is probably pretty similar to yours. My husband and I got engaged after we had been dating for 6 months and then got married 8 months later. The couple that mentored us through pre-Cana recommended TCOYF. I bought and learned the method from that book and that is the only instruction I have ever had. I would encourage you to get it ASAP so you can start charting right away. The more experience you have, the better.

The main difference in our story is that I hadn’t converted before we got married. I did agree to use NFP simply because he requested. I never had any concerns about using it. I think I probably saw it as a bit of a challenge and I’m a data nut anyway. On the other hand, my husband’s eyes generally glaze over when I’m talking about my chart unless I make it clear that I’m on the fence and his opinion could sway the decision for that night. He’s never held it against me when I said “not tonight, unless you want to have a baby in 9 months” even though he was always more ready for children than me.

Not being Catholic at the time and not really understanding NFP beyond the mechanics, I also wasn’t convinced about the Church’s stance on ABC. My position has changed over time. That may or may not happen for you but it is a possibility.

 

[Listener]

Oh, for Pete’s sake, I think it is rude to suggest that someone change her marriage plans. I grew up in the 1950’s. I was very young when I got married in the Catholic Church, and I am still married. We were engaged for a whole two months.

There was no RCIA back then. If you wanted to become a Catholic, you went to see the priest, and he gave some instructions. You were then privately Baptized.

There was no such thing as Engaged Encounter. All I remember is that we had to make an appointment or two with a priest and produce a couple of witnesses and our Baptismal Certificates. They also published the Marriage Banns in the Church Bulletin (3 times, I think).

As for NFP, no one knew that word back then. It was called the Rhythm Method. There was a joke going around: “What is another name for the Rhythm Method?” Answer: Roman Roulette." “What are people called who practice Roman Roulette?” Answer: “Parents.”

 

[z_0101]

Originally Posted by z_0101 forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
*PM me the answer to this question (or you can post it in reply, I’ll respect you either way - keep in mind that I help to teach this material and I ask from my heart and not out of meanness, and I take it very seriously… I do not want to stand before our Lord and try to explain how I lost a soul because of my error as a catechist):

Who ordinarily, and actually, administers the Sacrament of Marriage to the Bride and Groom?

( Please, no help from the peanut gallery … let’s see if QC’s marriage prep and RCIA program provided at least this fundamental aspect of the sacrament)*

And what if it didn’t? … Sorry, but that sounds pretty condescending. Quizzing someone on a forum about what they’ve learned at their parish.

Certainly not what I intended, and I would ask you to re-read the pre-amble to the question itself. Your reply in itself is some what harsh. :blackeye:

Should she shop around until she finds an RCIA program that meets your criteria?

No, she should take the time to investigate the sacrament more fully if she doesn’t know the correct answer
Once again, Your reply in itself is some what harsh and to assume the worse in anyone is most unkind. :blackeye:

The intent was, and still is, to get OP to think about the seriousness of what is going on here. IF she doesn’t understand the most basic aspect of the sacrament, then there should be some more time involved before actually receiving it!

Sorry, my husband knows the basics, but he certainly doesn’t know more than me about NFP.

EXACTLY, . At least he took the time to learn the basics.
Of course, we have a newer post from QC about the intent of the statement; however, her first comment made it appear that her fiancé wasn’t going to make any effort at all to learn or understand NFP.

That doesn’t mean that my husband isn’t supportive; that he doesn’t love me. And it doesn’t mean that he goes off to the shower, either.

You really do seem to have the need take the most negative view of my post and attempt a personal attack. I’ve done nothing to you and my only intent was to help QC.
Please stop hitting me with that stick.
:blackeye::blackeye:

To the OP:
Yes, you can learn NFP quickly. Obviously the more time you have to observe changes, the better you will be at reading those. But I learned it in one evening. And I learned it from a book. There weren’t any instructors around.

And you are the exception to the rule.
A large number of people have difficultly understanding and using the method correctly even with a class and a good OB/GYN that knows the various methods.

I certainly hope that QC is also an exception, as we have learned that she’s smarter than the average bear (to quote Yogi - but maybe that’s too obscure ?), and can learn without a class and support as you seem to have been able to do.

 

[z_0101]

Oh, for Pete’s sake, I think it is rude to suggest that someone change her marriage plans. I grew up in the 1950’s. I was very young when I got married in the Catholic Church, and I am still married. We were engaged for a whole two months.

@Listener: :
Times have changed and QuasiCatholic has brought this to the forum and the cat is out of the bag so to speak.

In the 50’s most parents wouldn’t have even talked about sex… they even required the move stars to have separate beds on screen… and quite often separate rooms (Hayes Code)!
My mom was born around those times and she wasn’t told anything about anything until it was absolutely required, and nothing about sex with a man until right before she was about to walk down the aisle.
Oh, and the scandal a site like this would have created in the 50’s… the thought police would be kicking in the door for even mentioning NFP or intercourse or sex.

What I don’ understand, is why take the negative stance here and look for evil intent, the suggestion to potentially postpone the marriage is made out of serious concern for the success of this couple’s marriage - no one here is saying don’t get married, just take a deep breath. QuasiCatholic has taken on a lot here and IMHO, needs some time to adjust.

I point out that the Holy Father has made a statement that many of our married couples have been poorly catechised on the sacrament of Marriage.

There was no RCIA back then. If you wanted to become a Catholic, you went to see the priest, and he gave some instructions. You were then privately Baptized.

and yes, exactly why we have these forums and why so many people have no idea about their faith and then leave the Catholic faith to find “God” and build a personal relationship with him. How much more personal can one be than to receive Holy Communion - but I digress from the thread.

There was no such thing as Engaged Encounter. All I remember is that we had to make an appointment or two with a priest and produce a couple of witnesses and our Baptismal Certificates. They also published the Marriage Banns in the Church Bulletin (3 times, I think).

and, IMHO, part of the reason that close to 50% (CDC-Stats-Divorce) of the marriages in the USA end in divorce - too little preparation and too little catechism. Too much “L. U. V.” and not enough actual “L. O. V. E.” Even after a year of dating, I really knew very little about my wife, and even after almost 25 years, I still learn something new about her!
And another thing… men are on their best behavior while dating and early courtship and can usually keep that way for the short term… you don’t get to really see who a man is until you’ve hung around with him, his friends, and his family long enough for them to drop their guard and that typically takes a year or more to happen and then you get to see how Dad treats Mom and how fiancé treats Mom, and his friends… then you get to see part of the true nature.

As for NFP, no one knew that word back then. It was called the Rhythm Method. There was a joke going around: “What is another name for the Rhythm Method?” Answer: Roman Roulette." “What are people called who practice Roman Roulette?” Answer: “Parents.”

You are exactly right.
The old Rhythm Method was a joke, based upon very little if any biological science whereas NFP is based on sound biological/medical studies of the human reproductive system. Comparing the old RM to NFP is like comparing apples to potatoes.

Oh, and let us not forget that WWII had just ended in '47 so a lot of young men coming home from the war. Kids could roam the city without fear of being kidnapped… just a week ago some jerk attempted to take a little girl off her bike… thankfully, the neighbors were there to help and the jerk ran… and then crashed his van into a tree while the police and the helicopter followed him. Muslims weren’t making use take our own flag down in our own country… and no illegal from Mexico would dare to fly the Mexican flag above an American flag. Of course, we also no longer tolerate segregation nor discrimination… there was a lot of good and a lot of bad in the 50’s…
.
No, dear Listener, the time you talk about is long gone and we need to study and understand that history, take the good, correct the mistakes, and avoid the bad.

 

[z_0101]

When I say I have to learn it, I don’t mean reading the chart – we both have advanced college degrees, I’m pretty sure we can read a chart.

I mean I’m the one who was to MAKE the chart. I seriously doubt anyone here has their husband checking their mucus for them each day

Reading the chart is the easy part… it’s the other steps involved that many find challenging.

Well, I do notice how that mucus is during intercourse… not a direct check, and yet, I’ve an idea of what is going on there. TMI, sorry, really

Don’t be too sure. I have had people here tell me that they couldn’t believe that my husband hasn’t ever checked my cervix for me.

- agreed; however, if my wife asked me to…

That would be TMI. I’ll just say that while I take my temperature, my husband fills in the chart.

This is more along what where we are… if my wife hasn’t recorded the information, then if I’m sitting at the desk… well, the chart is right there in file drawer.

 

[Xantippe]

When I say I have to learn it, I don’t mean reading the chart – we both have advanced college degrees, I’m pretty sure we can read a chart.

I mean I’m the one who was to MAKE the chart. I seriously doubt anyone here has their husband checking their mucus for them each day

At times, there may be genuine difficulties in reading the chart, whether due to lack of data or illness or schedule disruptions (getting up at a different time than usual, Daylight Savings, travel through time zones, etc.). Not to mention the really difficult stuff–breastfeeding NFP, perimenopause, or weird gynecological stuff (like PCOS). With the temporary stuff one can just wait until one has clear data, but that’s something that you and your fiance need to be prepared for–either taking a risk or waiting until the data is good.

I would particularly expect some difficulty around your wedding. It’s not unlikely that under the huge stress of wedding planning that things will get a little weird. I wouldn’t, for example, be surprised by an extra long cycle with delayed ovulation happening then.

One more thing–if you can stand it and if you are highly motivated to wait, it might be wise to start with a post-ovulatory conservative NFP regime and then (as you have more information) to work backwards to a more generous pre-ovulatory schedule.

Best wishes!

 

[maryjk]

Certainly not what I intended, and I would ask you to re-read the pre-amble to the question itself. Your reply in itself is some what harsh. :blackeye:

No, she should take the time to investigate the sacrament more fully if she doesn’t know the correct answer
Once again, Your reply in itself is some what harsh and to assume the worse in anyone is most unkind. :blackeye:

The intent was, and still is, to get OP to think about the seriousness of what is going on here. IF she doesn’t understand the most basic aspect of the sacrament, then there should be some more time involved before actually receiving it!

You asked her to respond to you in a PM. That means it wasn’t just a question to “think about.” That means you wanted to see if she knew the answer to the question.

What did you plan on doing if she didn’t know? Or if she did? (Oh and no help from the peanut gallery.)

Quizzing someone about what they learned in Marriage Prep is condescending, unless you are the priest or the instructor.

Oh, and at the time of my marriage, I had no idea who administered the sacrament. But over 20 years later, having that piece of information, on my wedding day, hasn’t seemed to matter.

EXACTLY, . At least he took the time to learn the basics.
Of course, we have a newer post from QC about the intent of the statement; however, her first comment made it appear that her fiancé wasn’t going to make any effort at all to learn or understand NFP.

You really do seem to have the need take the most negative view of my post and attempt a personal attack. I’ve done nothing to you and my only intent was to help QC.
Please stop hitting me with that stick.
:blackeye::blackeye:

To me, your post to the OP was very negative and condescending. If you feel nothing but joy for her upcoming wedding, t*hen I am sorry, I was wrong.
*
But if you are, as it seemed to me, trying to talk her out of getting married because she doesn’t know enough about being Catholic, then I took your post exactly as you meant it.

And you are the exception to the rule.
A large number of people have difficultly understanding and using the method correctly even with a class and a good OB/GYN that knows the various methods.

I certainly hope that QC is also an exception, as we have learned that she’s smarter than the average bear (to quote Yogi - but maybe that’s too obscure ?), and can learn without a class and support as you seem to have been able to do.

Just an FYI, there are thousands of couples that have learned NFP or FA without a class. Just look at where there are actual instructors. And now think about the number of parishes with no instructor. And add to that the non-Catholics that use NFP. I would venture to say that *most *couples learn it on their own.

 

[jlc2k2]

And you are the exception to the rule.
A large number of people have difficultly understanding and using the method correctly even with a class and a good OB/GYN that knows the various methods.

Out of curiosity, how do you know that she is the exception to the rule? Have there been studies done to see how many people struggle with NFP out of the gate? Or are you using the fact that you hear a lot of people complain about their struggles with NFP? Perhaps it’s just that people that didn’t need lots of classes and instructors don’t mention it as often but are actually the greater part of the population.

ETA: Don’t get me wrong. I realize that most people struggle with various parts of NFP at various times in their own way. But that doesn’t mean that the vast majority struggle with reading their fertility signs (specifically) right after they get married (specifically) - which is the situation the OP is referring to.

 

[z_0101]

You asked her to respond to you in a PM. That means it wasn’t just a question to “think about.” That means you wanted to see if she knew the answer to the question.

I wanted her to not feel like she had to answer in the public forum and thus feel like she would be subjected to negative and nasty comments that certain individiuals that lurk here tend to make.

What did you plan on doing if she didn’t know? Or if she did?

If she had answered via PM then none of your business.

(Oh and no help from the peanut gallery.)

You didn’t see the smiles I used around that statement… meaning tongue-in-cheek…
No of course not.
You are too busy shooting me in the head with your anger… please go take it out on someone else.

Quizzing someone about what they learned in Marriage Prep is condescending, unless you are the priest or the instructor.

and I am an instructor… perhaps not at her Parish; however, certainly one that would be in a position to ask if we were face to face.
Also Mark15-20, this charge didn’t stop with the disciples of Christ in that era, but has been passed on to all who form the Body of Christ.
You’re just looking to pick a fight.

Oh, and at the time of my marriage, I had no idea who administered the sacrament. But over 20 years later, having that piece of information, on my wedding day, hasn’t seemed to matter

• And why didn’t you… you entered into a convenient bond without full understanding of the implications… this is exactly what the Holy Father was talking about when he stated that most couples hadn’t been properly catechised before marriage It’s certainly the work of the Holy Spirit that this lack of understanding doesn’t seem to matter for a lot of Catholics in the marriages; however, on the other hand… maybe that it would matter… I don’t know.

. :shrug:To me, your post to the OP was very negative and condescending. If you feel nothing but joy for her upcoming wedding, t*hen I am sorry, I was wrong. *
But if you are, as it seemed to me, trying to talk her out of getting married because she doesn’t know enough about being Catholic, then I took your post exactly as you meant it.

I said nothing about not getting married… just slow things down a bit so that she could get a better grasp of what was happening.
Am I happy that she’s getting married, by all means, my best wishes and prayers. Do I have reservations about what is going on… frankly with a user name like “QuasiCatholic” and the first post, it leads me think that she’s rushing into this situation and isn’t sure about the entire thing.

Once again… stop with the negative interpretation that you seem so hell-bent to wrap around my neck.

.Just an FYI, there are thousands of couples that have learned NFP or FA without a class. Just look at where there are actual instructors. And now think about the number of parishes with no instructor. And add to that the non-Catholics that use NFP. I would venture to say that *most *couples learn it on their own.

and fyi, there are more than likely thousands of couples that “didn’t get it” and ended up using artificial contraception.
jlc2k2 asked me for my stats and proof…
no I charge both of you to prove otherwise… where are your statistics and proof.
The only statistic I’ve seen that used any kind of reliable method was from the American Family Physician that stated that at most 3% of all child bearing women in the US use some form of NFP. One can infer therefore that there are a large number of couple that are not using NFP for one reason or another. I contend that one reason (and certainly not the only reason) is that some couples simply didn’t understand the entire method, given that Catholics are a large group of people, I extrapolated to a “large number of people.”
As for the “exception the rule” statement - I’ll admit, perhaps an over reach; however, it was based on exeprence in teaching people very complex topics ranging from Chemistry, The Calculus, to the Catholic faith. I’ve helped to teach at the college level for many years, at the elementary level, and in RCIA classes… and simply put, many (that means a “large number”) people I’ve met would need a class and instruction on NFP.

Originally Posted by **jlc2k2 **ETA: Don’t get me wrong. I realize that most people struggle with various parts of NFP at various times in their own way. But that doesn’t mean that the vast majority struggle with reading their fertility signs (specifically) right after they get married (specifically) - which is the situation the OP is referring to.

You ask and then you answer and seem to acknowledge that a large number of people need a bit of help, isn’t that what I said… perhaps not in that many words.

 

[jlc2k2]

You ask and then you answer and seem to acknowledge that a large number of people need a bit of help, isn’t that what I said… perhaps not in that many words.

I think we are approaching this completely differently and is why I think we did NOT say the same thing. I am focusing on the OP’s question regarding how to learn it quickly for the beginning of her marriage. My statement was to acknowledge that in the 30 or more years that a couple may use NFP there are likely to be times that it is difficult to interpret fertility signs. I don’t necessarily know that the **majority **of people struggle in the first months.

Your previous statement to maryjk was that she is an “exception to the rule” because she was able to learn without an instructor. My question is: how do you know that? How do you know that her experience isn’t more common? Are you basing that on anecdotal evidence? This is an honest question that I want to know the answer to. I repeatedly get told that my experiences with NFP are not the norm but I honestly know of only 1 NFP couple that has actually worked with an instructor and that was due to special circumstances.

 

[z_0101]

I think we are approaching this completely differently and is why I think we did NOT say the same thing.

Agreed.
Even then, I think we both have OP’s best interests at heart in this.

Your previous statement to maryjk was that she is an “exception to the rule” because she was able to learn without an instructor. My question is: how do you know that?

Quite simply from reading a number of studies, one of which I link to and quote here in part.​

British Medical Journal, Sept 18, 1993 v307 n6906 p723(4)

“Natural family planning”:
Effective Birth Control Supported by the Catholic Church
R.E.J. Ryder.
Abstract:
Natural family planning, when used by motivated couples, is a safe and cost-effective means of birth control. Natural family planning, which involves teaching women to recognize signs of ovulation and to avoid intercourse on fertile days, is the only method of birth control approved by the Catholic Church. A total of 869 women of diverse ethnic and economic backgrounds participated in a study conducted by the World Health Organization. Regardless of literacy and culture, 93% of the women were able to recognize the changes in their cervical mucus associated with ovulation. ***Other studies have emphasized the importance of good initial teaching and the motivation of the woman practicing the method. ***A failure rate of 0.2 pregnancies per 100 women was found in a study of 19,843 women in India.

[Full Text: COPYRIGHT 1993 British Medical Association]

---

Sorry, it took me a little bit to find the reference. I am a very prolific reader, in addition to the several blogs and forums, LOTH, I also subscribe to and read many different trade journals ranging from my field in Analytical Chemistry, American medical, British medical, pharmaco, to Industrial Automation and Quality Control - I’m not quite sure how many now… most come via the web anymore and if I don’t bother to print out the page or record the link then sometimes I am simply unable to find the document in a timely fashion as I often just read the content and don’t worry about reference unless working on a project.

Further more if you will go to the various organizations that teach NFP such as: Billings Life, Fertility UK, FPA, NFP - Natural Family Planning Teachers’ Association they also mention that proper training is often required for a large number of couples for successful practice of NFP.

Personally, my wife and found the over all NFP methods to be quite basic… we had been trying for over a decade to conceive a child; thus, now that we’re spacing the children out, the information we learned about fertility when trying to get pregnant was just about the same as for NFP (in fact, at one point our prior OB/GYN told us to sign up for a NFP class and do everything as told except that we should reverse the abstinence vs intercourse days and to have intercourse every day during the abstinence phase of NFP - quite funny coming from a secular OB/GYN)

 

[jlc2k2]

Thank you for the studies and your patience!

 

[PaulGH]

Your previous statement to maryjk was that she is an “exception to the rule” because she was able to learn without an instructor. My question is: how do you know that? How do you know that her experience isn’t more common? Are you basing that on anecdotal evidence? This is an honest question that I want to know the answer to. I repeatedly get told that my experiences with NFP are not the norm but I honestly know of only 1 NFP couple that has actually worked with an instructor and that was due to special circumstances.

Just for fun, let’s try a poll to see how people here at CAF have learned NFP:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=12110146