Funny you should mention the above, my sister was part of a latin catechism group and it was that if a mother expecting had planned the christening/baptism for the baby and she unexpectdely miscarried, the baby would be considered baptised. Any thoughts?
But don’t we say on these threads, over and over again, that God casts nobody into Hell. If we end up in Hell, it is because of our conscious choice to reject him through mortal sin? I can’t count how many times I’ve read this from some of the most seasoned apologists in these forums. While these children are born with the stain of original sin, how have they rejected Christ? And, while you dismissed my earlier thread, I would like a more clear explanation of how these aborted babies are different from the children slaughtered by Herod after Christ’s birth. These children also were born with the stain of original sin and had not received sacramental baptism, yet the church teaches that they are in heaven (Navarre commentary on the book of Matthew). Are not these aborted children the casualties of the war against Christianity, in which the enemy group, led by such forces as Planned Parenthood, are encouraging the use and permanent legalization of abortion, often with militant tactics? Victims of a war against Christianity? Sounds as much an example of martyrdom as the children slain by Herod, who was waging his own war against Christ.
And, by the way, before Br. Rich (whom I admire) or anyone else jumps in, I need to point out that this is just my theory, as the OP had his. And, as Catholics and amateur theologians, we are allowed to have theories, as theologians have had through out the history of the church. That said, I am a committed, completely orthodox Catholic, and if my own “martyrdom” theory is in any way contradicted by the teaching of the church (and I’ll admit that my earlier post stretched too far by saying we are “assured” they are in heaven), could someone please reference me, preferably with a link, to the appropriate document that explains otherwise. I’m not particularly interested in searching out some other threads on the subject, as was suggested earlier, since forum threads are not authoritative documents on the matter.
No. The Church has two different funeral masses for children. One for those who were Baptized and one for those who were not Baptized. They have different prayers and wording.
“…that God casts nobody into Hell” I don’t believe anyone here has said that God has cast these children into Hell. As a matter of fact the Church specifically condemns the idea that anyone is condemned to Hell for Original Sin alone.
Hmmm. You claim that the Church “DOES NOT TEACH that they are in Heaven!”
Br. Rich SFO said:
Yes, Br. Rich, I slipped and said “born” instead of “conceived”. You got me.
Aquinas and Augustine are speaking about the **Holy Innocents of Bethlehem **killed by Herod in an attempt to kill Christ.
Limbo is not a doctrine or dogma. That is correct but it is also not a dismissed theory either. The Catholic Church has not condemned the theory of a Limbo of the Innocents. Have you ever read St. Alphonsus Liguori - Great Means of Salvation and Perfection? There are several pages devoted to his thoughts on children who die without Baptism. And yes he is a Doctor of the Church like Aquinas and Augustine.
Your slip however points out something very important to this discussion. There are those who were born without Original Sin. Like St. John the Baptist who the Church teaches was “sanctified in his mothers womb” based on the Scripture passage found in Luke. This does give hope that there might be a way for God to offer Salvation to those innocents who die with only Original Sin. However my original point we can hope but cannot say for certain.
That’s who I am talking about, as well. If you review my posts, I never claimed, even once, that the Church teaches that aborted babies are in heaven. I clearly stated that this was only my theory. The only time I said that the Church taught anyone was in Heaven was in reference to the Holy Innocents. See,.here’s my quote:
Actually, that wasn’t your original point. Let me quote you: “However that abortion which is the killing of an innocent person is not equivalent to Martyrdom or Baptism of Blood.” If you had stated that you disagreed with me but admitted that it was simply a matter of hope that would be one thing, but you just outright defied a theory based on nothing but your own opinion.
Excellent point. Well worth considering. God bless you.
I may have mixed your post with some of the others. Several posts stated that children who die without Baptism ARE in heaven because God loves them, etc. I don’t remember how the Holy Innocents got inserted into the thread but their situation was totally different. I think we are on the same page.
The problem that I see with your abortion = martyrdom theory is that it elevates abortion to a Sacrament of Salvation!
No harm, no foul. I’m glad that’s resolved because I hate it when us good Catholics start hitting each other with friendly fire, especially since I really respect your posts. I will say, though, that I really started thinking about one post you gave (in a positive way) and have some questions on it that I might start in another thread since I don’t want to hijack this one. If you want to comment on it, look for the thread about John’s being sanctified in his mother’s womb. Other than that, I’m taking a little time off from the Internet, so I wish Br. Rich and everyone in here a great Thanksgiving.
Thanks, Matt. Ulitmately that’s what I sort of privately concluded in my discussions with Br. Rich, anyway. If one is too confident of the fate of the aborted children (as my original post might lead some to be), it might lead to complacency in prayer for them and in the fight against abortion. Your post was helpful. God bless.