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Dan-Man916
Guest
This truly is the crux of the matter. What the word control means is the issue at hand. I do agree with your principle on the matter, but it always comes down to how each side interprets things.
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Aramis
Guest
The bishop prior to Nikolai held the same view, and according to the last priest I talked to, a while ago, Bishop Benjamin is not changing that policy, and many of the Orthodox parishes in Alaska, tho’ seldom the urban ones, will commune properly prepared Catholics, accepting the Catholic Sacraments as valid, but demanding adherence to Orthodox norms otherwise: confession the night before or before matins on the morning of, fasting since midnight, or even since vespers, and not making a public issue of it.
Then again, many Orthodox clerics up here view the ECC’s as the Melkites claim to be: Orthodox in Communion with Rome, and falling under the same category as the non-Canonical Jurisdictions like the Ukrainian Orthodox - Kyiv Patriarchate. The last OCA priest who offered to commune me made the same offer to a visiting Ukrainian couple of the UOC-KP. “You’re orthodox enough for me!” said he.
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manualman
Guest
Interesting question! (the OP)
I’ll get to it just as soon as I finish with this irresistable force and immovable object issue I’ve been puttering with…
I’ll get to it just as soon as I finish with this irresistable force and immovable object issue I’ve been puttering with…
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sidbrown
Guest
That is interesting because we often hear from our Orthodox friends that Roman Catholics are not allowed to receive Holy Communion from an Orthodox priest. And an Orthodox priest told me point blank that there were no official exceptions to this and that this is the official rule in every Orthodox Church in the world. He said that any Orthodox priest who did such would be a dissident and would be in serious disobedience to what is officially taught by the Orthodox Church.
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Aramis
Guest
Beware “universalisms”… they are almost always untruths. Sometimes even intentional ones.
J
John_oxios
Guest
Hi sidbrown,
The Greek Church doesn’t recognize Catholic Sacraments???
They have seven Mysteries of the Church we have seven Sacraments, We just call have different terms of expressing the very same Sacrament.
We both say the Mass, just as it was done in Apostolic times, Share Saints,
We both as All Catholic Church’s Christ’s real presence in the Eucharist. That is why we each permit each other to receive communion in each others Church, with the permission of of our respective Church elders.
By the way what type of Catholic are you?
In Greek the word for sacrament is ‘mysterion’ which means mystery.
In the Latin the word comes from ‘Sacramentum’ meaning oath
The Catechism of the Catholic Church lists the sacraments as follows: “The whole liturgical life of the Church revolves around the Eucharistic sacrifice and the sacraments. There are seven sacraments in the Church: Baptism, Confirmation or Chrismation, Eucharist, Penance, Anointing of the Sick, Holy Orders, and Matrimony.”
The Sacraments of the Catholic Church are, the Church teaches, "efficacious signs of grace, instituted by Christ and entrusted to the Church, by which divine life is dispensed to us. The visible rites by which the sacraments are celebrated signify and make present the graces proper to each sacrament. They bear fruit in those who receive them with the required dispositions
In the Orthodox Faith:
Mysteries
According to Orthodox theology, the purpose of the Christian life is to attain theosis, the mystical union of man with God. This union is understood as both collective and individual. St. Athanasius of Alexandria, wrote concerning the Incarnation that, “He (Jesus) was made man that we might be made god (θεοποιηθῶμεν)”.[40] See 2 Peter 1:4, John 10:34–36, Psalm 82:6. The entire life of the church is oriented towards making this possible and facilitating it.
In the Orthodox Church the terms “Mystery” or “**The Mysteries” refer to the process of theosis. **While it is understood that God theoretically can do anything instantly and invisibly, it is also understood that he generally chooses to use material substance as a medium in order to reach people. The limitations are those of mankind, not God. Matter is not considered to be evil by the Orthodox. Water, oil, bread, wine, etc., all are means by which God reaches out to allow people to draw closer to him. How this process works is a “Mystery”, and cannot be defined in human terms. These Mysteries are surrounded by prayer and symbolism so that their true meaning will not be forgotten.
Those things which in the West are often termed Sacraments or sacramentals are known among the Orthodox as the Sacred Mysteries. While the Roman Catholic Church numbers seven Sacraments, and many Protestant groups list two (Baptism and the Eucharist) or even none, the Orthodox do not limit the number. However, for the sake of convenience, catechisms will often speak of the seven Great Mysteries. Among these are **Holy Communion **(the most direct connection), Baptism, Chrismation (Confirmation), O****Confession, Unction, Matrimony, and Ordination. But the term also properly applies to other sacred actions such as monastic Tonsure or the blessing of holy water, and involves fasting, almsgiving, or an act as simple as lighting a candle, burning incense, praying or asking God’s blessing on food.
Its beyond me why Greek Orthodox Members try to focus on our theological difference than what we have in common.
Please find me some reference where the Greek Orthodox Church does not Roman Catholic Sacraments because we share the same beliefs in them. However, the west was forced to define them to protect the teachings of the apostles whereas in the east they just keep them as mysteries of God.
Christ prayed for our unity!!!
God bless,
John Oxios.
If you were a greek Orthodox you’d recognize my last name.
J
John_oxios
Guest
Sorry, not so! That’s like a gossip, can’t be backed up with a viable reference.
Actually up to about the ninth century some Roman Catholic priests were married. As was in the Greek Orthodox Catholic Church. Even today, Anglican Priest converting to To the RCC are allowed to remain married.
Try doing a little research, if you don’t know ask questions, look it up… but please no gossip. We will be judged for every false word we utter!
Exd 23:1 "You shall not utter a false report.
Mat 12:36 I tell you, on the day of judgment men will render account for every careless word they utter; (RSV)
The Warrior of Light,
The Opponent is wise: Whenever He can, He makes use of the easiest and most effective of his weapons: Gossip. It doesn’t take much effort to use it, because others do the work for him. A few miss-directed words can destroy months of dedication, years spent in search of Harmony. The Warrior of Light is often a victim of this trick, he doesn’t know where this blow came from, and cannot prove the gossip is false.
Gossip does not allow him the right to defend himself, it condemns without trial.
When this happens He puts up with the undeserved punishment, for, as he well knows, WORDS are POWERFUL. But he suffers in silence and never uses the same weapon to hit back at his opponent.
The Warrior of Light is not a coward.
A true Warrior of Light knows every garden has its own mysteries, which only the patient hand of the gardener can unravel.
He knows that the fool who gives advice about some else’s garden is not tending his own plants.
The Warrior of Light knows that he is free to choose his desires and he makes these decisions with courage, detachment and – sometimes – with just a touch of madness.
God bless,
John
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sidbrown
Guest
"What is the Orthodox Church’s view of Roman Catholic ‘sacraments’?
Orthodox Sacraments: Heterodox Sacramental Forms
In the simplest terms, the (Orthodox) Church believes that there are no sacraments outside the Church. Thus, according to strictness or the strict view (in Greek ‘akrivia’), any Roman Catholic or Protestant who wishes to join the (Orthodox) Church must be received by baptism, for they are considered not to have been baptised. This is the practice on Mt Athos, in Greece, on Cyprus and in other parts of the Orthodox world, especially in Serbia. This is not ‘rebaptism’, which is specifically rejected in the Nicene Creed. ‘Rebaptism’ could only take place when (Orthodox) Church baptism had already occurred, which is utterly contrary to our Faith."
orthodoxengland.org.uk/rcsacs.htm
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Formosus
Guest
Not all Orthodox churches are in agreement as to whether Catholic’s have divine mysteries. I do beleive that even the ones that accept that we might, beleive it is due to a matter of oeconomia. This has to do with the complex matter of Augustinian sacramental theology vs. a Cyprianic view. Both are rooted in the patristic tradition.
John, I do not mean to sound rude or anything, but your posts would be a lot more readable if you didn’t change the text size, color, underline, etc so much.
. If we are ever going to achieve some sort of inter communion between Catholics and Orthodox, I think both Churches will have to agree to disagree on many of the theological opinions that separate us and allow the Orthodox their autocephalous rule.
John, I do not mean to sound rude or anything, but your posts would be a lot more readable if you didn’t change the text size, color, underline, etc so much.
I think this is a fair criticism. Every attempt at union in the past has resulted in the Vatican taking wide measures of control over an eastern church. It is only in the modern times where Eastern Catholic Churches have begun to re-establish full self rule. Even then, as things stand the Orthodox would probably be forced to abandon autocephalousy
. If we are ever going to achieve some sort of inter communion between Catholics and Orthodox, I think both Churches will have to agree to disagree on many of the theological opinions that separate us and allow the Orthodox their autocephalous rule.
J
John_oxios
Guest
Hello,
Read the page, However, it seems this reference to the Greek Orthodox, lacks the point that the RCC through the Sacred Tradition of the Apostles, even Christ Himself was not tripled emerged in water.
The RCC does however since apostolic times have discussed sprinkling and immersion over sevearl councils til about the fifith century, also use of Icons and statues…you’ll find the councils mentioning usining statuesis acceptable in the west as Icons are accepted in the East… that would be cultural/ traditional differences.
Catholic Baptism uses matter and the word of God, representing Christ’s reincarnation the Divine joins with matter. As Biblical account we bless in the Name of the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit, as we bless thricely sprinkling with water and making the sign of the Cross of the Child or adult.
Mark 7:
32 And they brought to him a man who was deaf and had an impediment in his speech; and they besought him to lay his hand upon him.
33 And taking him aside from the multitude privately,** he put his fingers into his ears, and he spat and touched his tongue;**
34 and looking up to heaven, he sighed, and said to him, “Eph’phatha,” that is, "Be opened."
35 And his ears were opened, his tongue was released, and he spoke plainly.
36 And he charged them to tell no one; but the more he charged them, the more zealously they proclaimed it.
Mar 7:37 And they were astonished beyond measure, saying, "He has done all things well; he eve.
Jesus uses spit, touch and His Word to open the impediments of the man.
In Baptism in the RCC, that’s what Baptism does, We Bless three times, we look up to heaven, touch the ears and the Mouth/tongue (Yrs. ago with salt) and pray the catecumen be opened to the Word of God and His Holy Spirit.
See Mar 8:23 And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the village; and when he had spit on his eyes and laid his hands upon him, he asked him, “Do you see anything?”
Jhn 9:6 As he said this, he spat on the ground and made clay of the spittle and anointed the man’s eyes with the clay,
Show me Biblically where the proper amount of water is stated?
No three dunks here?
Matt 3:16 And when Jesus was baptized, he went up immediately from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and alighting on him;
Even here,
Mar 1:10 And when he came up out of the water, immediately he saw the heavens opened and the Spirit descending upon him like a dove;
Does this mean Christ was immersed? Well jesus walked into the Water, he would have to come out of the water, so as he came up out of the water.
Full immersion or sprinkling of Water does not alter or nullify the Word of God,
it is by faith we are saved, and we begin that walk with Baptism. Because the Holy Spirit convicts us in our hearts.
Sprinkling or Immersion is a Sacred Tradition of each Church, as in Icons versus Statues, etc…
If any catechumen came from any faith, which used the formula of In the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and used water in any form or rite, The RCC would not re- baptize that candidate… because who ever Baptizes in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit baptizes! And nothing can or does the Word of God.
Remember it wasn’t until the 11th century the Greek Orthodox and RCC split and that was over the Philosophical explanation of Apostolic teachings.
God bless,
John
God bless,
John
M
menotti8
Guest
Yes, the answer to this is that both the poster who claimed that you must be within the Church to attain salvation and the poster who showed that non-Catholics that are, in no fault of their own, not in communion with the Church and the Holy See can attain salvation. The difference is that of one who knows the Truth of the Church and yet refuses to be in communion with Her, and the person who is ignorant of the Truth the Church can lead one fully to and therefore is not in communion witht eh Holy See. God knows our hearts and thus, only He may judge whether or not a given person belongs to the former category or the latter. The key is the “of no fault of one’s own” in teh lack of communion with the Church. This is a paradox, not a contradiction. The difference is that a paradox is something in which there are two focal points that seem to not be reconcilable superficially, but can be reconciled once viewed at a higher rational level. For those who would still state that the Church’s teaching on this is a contradiction, I’d invite you to look to the following Christian belief about Christ, which is just as much a paradox:
- Christ is fully man
- Christ is fully God
- Christ has two natures
- Therefore, Christ is both fully man AND fully God (and therefore, there is no contradiction, just a paradox).
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sidbrown
Guest
According to the Orthodox Church: "There is a proper form and belief concerning baptism . As regards the form, we have received from the Holy Apostles and Holy Fathers and the entire mind of the church that we always baptize by immersing three times in water, in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. There is no other acceptable form, and in particular, sprinkling is absolutely forbidden, and is uncanonical. "
orthodox.net/articles/baptism.html
“Nothing outside the church, even if it resembles Christian baptism, is true baptism. This is why those desiring to become Orthodox Christians who come from another belief, even one that has a baptismal rite, should be baptized.”
J
John_oxios
Guest
Hi,
Learned two new words in this paragraph; oeconomia: management of Household, and below ‘autocephalousy’ head of household.
But isn’t it God’s house we been left to manage as one Holy Catholic apostolic Church?
Code:
Not rude at all, Thanks for the note, I use it to emphasize the points, seems using caps leads people thinking I'm screaming... which is a text message format, I don't beleieve it applies to forums.. but then again???.I think this is a fair criticism. Every attempt at union in the past has resulted in the Vatican taking wide measures of control over an eastern church. It is only in the modern times where Eastern Catholic Churches have begun to re-establish full self rule. Even then, as things stand the Orthodox would probably be forced to abandon autocephalousy
I’ve already stated there’s was an agreement already in place but not acted on, didn’t have the reference though only the council of Florence:
Council of Basel-Ferrara-Florence
www.ask.com/wiki/Council_of_Florence#Composition_of_the_council
The Council transferred to Ferrara in 1438 and to** Florence in 1439** had meanwhile successfully negotiated reunification with several Eastern Churches, reaching agreements on such matters as papal primacy, purgatory, and the word “Filioque” added in the West to the Nicene Creed. The most important of these unions, that with the Eastern Orthodox Church, though accepted by all but one of the Greek bishops at the Council, was rejected by popular sentiment and came to a complete end with the fall of Constantinople in 1453. The Council also declared the Basel group heretics and excommunicated them; and the superiority of the Pope over the Councils was affirmed in the bull Etsi non dubitemus of 20 April 1441.
I am aware Constantine is a saint in the Eastern Orthodox Church… However what gave him the right to move the See of Rome to Constantinople? And that’s the basis of 1600 hundred yrs. of disagreement.
God bless,
John
J
John_oxios
Guest
Hi sid,
Code:
Really always??? According to who? Do you mean in the desert country where water was scarce, the apostles didn't baptize? Or did they make use of the little water available? No where is it defined the amount of water that must be used, no where does it state full bodily immersed.. Ther is another type of emersion
–adjectiveIn fact I became immersed in the Word of God, by reading some four thousand hours of biblical reading, various versions and many different commentaries, attended Bible studies of different faiths almost every day of the week for yrs. I’ve slowed down some but read and study nonetheless.
So to become immersed in God, can be done so by the Holy Spirit, before or after Sprinkled baptism or full emersion.
as the prophet Ezekiel foretells:
Eze 36:25 **I will sprinkle clean water upon you, **and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you.
Eze 36:26 A new heart I will give you, and a new spirit I will put within you; and I will take out of your flesh the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to observe my ordinances.
Now isn’t that what Baptism does??
Also the Jews of Jesus time, when a gentile convert came to convert to Judaism, the Jews had a special rite in which they were sprinkled with water and this as the rite used to convert the Gentile pagans to Christianity.
We do the same rite differently… Are Eastern Orthodox members saved? and RCC members condemned because of this difference??? Isn’t it Faith not the right right that matters?
Baptism in the Name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit, is Just that a Baptism in the Church.
God bless,
John
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sidbrown
Guest
Yeah, I realise that you have this view and I know what the RCC teaches. I am only pointing out that many of the E. Orthodox do not agree. And BTW, as far as I know, the E. Orthodox do not accept the Council of Florence as binding on them.
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Formosus
Guest
Constantine never moved the see of Rome to Constantinople…
Further, Florence was a politically motivated council that set out to provide some sort of union for political purposes. I have done my research and only Cardinal Isidore had any real intentions of trying to end the schism. Simply put, trying to beat Orthodox over the head with the Council of Florence isn’t going to heal any schism and is in fact only going to continue it along and make the wounds even greater.
J
John_oxios
Guest
Hey sid,
Meant to include this in my last post didn’t go through though.
Code:
Also the Jews of Jesus time, when a gentile convert came to convert to Judaism, the Jews had a special rite in which they admitted Gentile converts they were **sprinkled** with water and this as the rite used to convert the Gentile pagans to Christianity.Baptism in the Name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit, is Just that a Baptism in the Church.
Here you go:
Sid, maybe you ought to read your own references fully
www.orthodox.net/articles/baptism.html#_Toc452010849
How to Baptize
We are commanded to baptize by threefold immersion in water, in the name of the Holy Trinity. The Scriptures and the writings of the church affirm this.
Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you.
(Matt. 28:19–20)
In regard to Baptism—baptize thus: After the foregoing instructions, baptize in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,** in living water**.** If you have no living water,** then baptize in other water; and if you are not able in cold, then in warm. If you have neither, pour three times on the head, in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Before the Baptism, let the one baptizing and the one to be baptized fast, as also any others who are able. Command the one who is to be baptized to fast beforehand for one or two days.
Do we know what living water is? It is water from a well which water flowed through,now does the Eastern Church dig a well and find flowing water? Or do they use tap Water blessed in the Name of God? Seems the east can make do with what is available, but condemns the RCC for using them themselves.
God bless,
John
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Ghosty
Guest
The Catholic Church does allow for married priests, in the Latin Church and in the various non-Latin Churches.
Peace and God bless!
T
trophybearer
Guest
I always thought “living water” referred to moving, fresh water, eg. a river, lake, etc.?
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Analyticalpoet
Guest
Why is it that most Orthodox insist that the Filioque is a heresy? Pope John Paul the Great has gone through great measures to explain the proper understanding of it. When a Catholic states that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, he does not say it with the understanding that the Spirit is eternally generated from the Father and the Son, but rather that He comes from the Father through the Son. I don’t see any need to remove it from the Latin Rite, just as i don’t see any need to impose on to the Eastern Rites!
The more pressing issue is that of Original Sin and the effects of it on human nature. Yes, the Catholic Church does have the view of it as a “stain,” but this is not to say that man is guilty of Adam and Eve’s sin, but rather that man still fills the effects of this through concopuscience. This is the “stain”: the inclicnation to sin. Baptism is the supernatural counterbalance to this inclination to sin and the redeeming act that unites us to the Body of Christ.
Unification is possible by the Grace of the Holy Spirit provided that each party is not obstinant on theological misunderstandings.
The more pressing issue is that of Original Sin and the effects of it on human nature. Yes, the Catholic Church does have the view of it as a “stain,” but this is not to say that man is guilty of Adam and Eve’s sin, but rather that man still fills the effects of this through concopuscience. This is the “stain”: the inclicnation to sin. Baptism is the supernatural counterbalance to this inclination to sin and the redeeming act that unites us to the Body of Christ.
Unification is possible by the Grace of the Holy Spirit provided that each party is not obstinant on theological misunderstandings.
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