Fate of Eastern Catholic Churches if Orthodox are Reconciled

[Formosus]

Relations at the Sepulcher are always very tense. I really think everyone here is making a bigger deal out of this then they should. Fights between groups there are common but it is just fist fights and after the fact they are all friends again. Just a family quarrel like between two brothers fighting over the same toy. Perhaps the press uses it to make us look bad, but the press uses it to make any Christian look bad. Arguing over who was right or wrong in it on here is just making everyone involved look silly. Sid explained his point in bringing it up lets just get back to the topic at hand rather then have a silly argument over an even sillier fist fight.

 

[John_oxios]

"… Perhaps the press uses it to make us look bad, but the press uses it to make any Christian look bad. Arguing over who was right or wrong in it on here is just making everyone involved look silly. Sid explained his point in bringing it up lets just get back to the topic at hand rather then have a silly argument over an even sillier fist fight.

Hello Formosos,
Thank you that was my point, entirely. The Press. especially U.S. Press loves to print bad things about the Church, and then things are added by what people have “heard.”

We get enough bad press, without having to add to it surreptitious, Back on topic! 10-4

As far as that attachment goes will get on it later, Its a pic of the layout of the Sepulcher

God bless,
John

 

[John_oxios]

Your link does not work (?)

Try this

upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/53/Anastasia_Rotonda_sketch_1.svg/800px-Anastasia_Rotonda_sketch_1.svg.png

It’s the layout of the Chapels around the Sepulcher. I tried to get the actual image but, I guess it was too large.

God bless,
John

 

[John_oxios]

Relations at the Sepulcher are always very tense. I really think everyone here is making a bigger deal out of this then they should. Fights between groups there are common but it is just fist fights and after the fact they are all friends again. Just a family quarrel like between two brothers fighting over the same toy. Perhaps the press uses it to make us look bad, but the press uses it to make any Christian look bad. Arguing over who was right or wrong in it on here is just making everyone involved look silly…

Hi Formosus,
Picked this up in my reading the other day,

:idea: “The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour on it, the more it will contract.” (Oliver Wendell Holmes):idea:

He also said, “Sin has many tools, but a lie is the handle that fits them all”

God bless,
John

 

[John_oxios]

tomanto vs, Tamatoe?

Sorry, I couldn’t resist.

Hello Lil Soldier,

   Thanks!  remind me to slap my spellcheck upside its cpu!

God bless,
john

 

[John_oxios]

John oxios; 7062585 ]
Hi DVDJS,
I have to go over my church history, however, From why I remember both the east and agreed 325, but later the language translation suffered>

Filioque controversy
Main article: Filioque
In the late sixth century, the Latin-speaking churches of Western Europe added the words “and the Son” (Filioque) to the description of the procession of the Holy Spirit, in what Easterners have argued is a violation of Canon VII of the Third Ecumenical Council, since the words were not included in the text by either the Council of Nicaea or that of Constantinople.[17]
The Vatican has recently argued that, while these words would indeed be heretical if associated with the Greek verb ἐκπορεύεσθαι of the text adopted by the Council of Constantinople,[11] they are not heretical when associated with the Latin verb procedere, which corresponds instead to the Greek verb προϊέναι, with which some of the Greek Fathers also associated the same words.[11]

Biblically the Spirit does proceed from Jesus Christ:

Jhn 20:21 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.”

Jhn 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.

And Biblically the Father sends the Holy Spirit in jesus’ name:

jhn 14:26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

Jesus also sends the Spirit, who proceeds from the Father:

Jhn 15:26 "But when the Counselor comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness to me;

And in Acts:
Act 2:32 This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses.

Act 2:33 Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this which you see and hear.

My Book says Three persons in the same Nature, ‘the Godhead’ is a title,

Deu 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD;

Col 2:9 **For in him ** the whole fulness of deity dwells bodily,

Jesus’ pre- incarnate presence
Isa 63:9-10, "In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them; in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; he lifted them up and carried them all the days of old.
But they rebelled and grieved his holy Spirit; therefore he turned to be their enemy, and himself fought against them.

David Guzik (A Protestant) commentary
d. And the Angel of His Presence saved them: This refers to the presence and work of Jesus among ancient Israel, especially among those delivered from Egypt.

i. “The angel of His presence is the Messiah . . . Calvin sees in this angel merely a serving angel. But of this Angel it is said that He by His love and pity saved Israel; this can hardly be said of a created angel. It is the Christ who is meant here.” (Bultema)

ii. “Angel of his presence: literally ‘of his face’. We recognize people by face; ‘f**ace’ is the Lord’s very one presence **(Psalm 139:7), among them in the person of his angel - that unique ‘Angel of the Lord’ (as in Genesis 16:7ff; 21:17; 22:11; 22:15; Exodus 3:2; 14:19; 23:20-23; Malachi 3:1) who speaks as the Lord and is yet distinct from him.” (Motyer)

e. But t**hey rebelled and grieved His **Holy Spirit: Despite this outpouring of love and mercy from God, His people responded with cold, rebellious, unresponsive hearts. God had to deal with this in His people, so He fought against them.

Its** pretty tough to argue against whether or not The Holy Spirit also proceeds from Jesus, biblically He does. **

But what I can remember is that the Church says that the Holy Spirit is the outpouring of the Love from (Of) Both the Father and the Son.

Jesus being the Word of God, and the Holy Spirit being the Breath of God, can we separate our words from our breath?

Hey there!

Every-bodies talking about the Filloque, but nobody seems to be addressing it?

 

[John_oxios]

It does, but nobody could say how many Russian Orthodox accept this belief. The Russian Church has gone on record saying that it it has pleased the Lord to reveal little to us about what happens to the soul after death, and therefore things like this are by no means dogmatic. Fr Seraphim Rose apparently did much to popularize this idea in recent times with some of his writings. I don’t believe in “toll houses”, and I can’t reconcile it to Orthodox belief unless used completely metaphorically, and even then I have no use for it.

Hi trophybearer,
You may! (Emphasis in the above quote mine)

Paschal said of God, what have got to lose? If there is no God and you believe in him nothing lost nothing gained. But if you don’t believe in God and there is? you have everything to lose." (paraphrased, but called Paschal’s Wager).

One of the Orthodox Greatest saints: John Chrysostom,

According to St. John, even the souls of innocent infants must pass through these toll-houses, for the all-evil devil seeks to snatch their souls, too. However, the infants make the following confession (according to St. John): “We have passed by the evil spirits without suffering any harm. For the dark custom officials saw our spotless body and were put to shame; they saw the soul good and pure and were embarrassed; they say the tongue immaculate and pure and blameless and they were silenced; we passed by and humiliated them. This is why the holy angles of God who met and received us rejoiced, the righteous greeted us with joy and the saints with delight said, ‘Welcome, the lambs of Christ!’”

Kind of like limbo? The Church can’t explain what happens to an unbaptized infant? But to comfort the family Limbo was a special place for the souls of the innocent to rest.

Is Purgatory, which the Jews in Christ time believed in Genom, which they prayed for the departed soul for 1 yr after death. Did Christ teach against that?

The early Church prayed for their Martyrs, for their dead in Christ, and out of Christ

so the questions are : … IF they are in heaven? Do they need our prayers? No.

      If their in Hell?  Is there anything prayer can do for them?   No.

Well we believe there is a middle ground where our prayers do avail help for our departed in Christ, who dod not live a perfect life… we call it Purgatory… you can call it whatever… but I doubt God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit has mislead us all this long.
The devils greatest trick to to make us he doesn’t exist, and in this case prayer after death avails our loved one nothing.

Hey, whats to stop you otherwise? Pride? Oh boy!

       In the west people would discuss and challenge teachings... what do we mean by this....   "what did the apostles mean by this..."

It seems the more knowldge they gained the more they questioned Church teachings… which the Bible says Is Guidance from the Holy Spirit.

Martin Luther was a lawyer for years before he entered seminary, he was a priest a whole five yrs. teaching College, he taught on the writings of Paul epistles… before his 99 thesis, yet he believed he had all the answers. His catch 22, he renounced the authority of the Pope, and was not allowed to discuss his points with a synod till he recanted. He locked himself out.

The east being separated from the west rarely had these dilemmas, the west couldn’t leave them as Mysteries of the God/ the Church they were being put to the test and had to defend the teaching/ belief. The only accepted way was philosophically defining what the Church/ Apostles meant. And that became a cry of foul to the E.O. because they believe and still do… that you cannot define the mysteries of God philosophically, yet Paul was a Hellenistic Jew, he was deep in philosophical knowledge and persuasion.

God bless,
John

 

[ron77nyc]

Kind of like limbo? The Church can’t explain what happens to an unbaptized infant? But to comfort the family Limbo was a special place for the souls of the innocent to rest.

What kind of comfort is it to know that your child is eternally separated from God and family? It would have been much wiser to say “no one knows but we trust our merciful Father in heaven.”

Is Purgatory, which the Jews in Christ time believed in Genom, which they prayed for the departed soul for 1 yr after death.

How do we know if and when a soul is in purgatory and for how long? I don’t think they have 24 hour days, a 7 day work week or a 365 day year in purgatory.

Did Christ teach against that?

Jesus didn’t preach against homosexuality either. Does that make it OK?

The early Church prayed for their Martyrs, for their dead in Christ, and out of Christ

so the questions are : … IF they are in heaven? Do they need our prayers? No.

      If their in Hell?  Is there anything prayer can do for them?   No.

Well we believe there is a middle ground where our prayers do avail help for our departed in Christ, who dod not live a perfect life… we call it Purgatory…

With the exception of Mary and Jesus, who has lead a perfect life? No one has so that would mean that all go to purgatory before heaven. Why didn’t Jesus or the apostles explain that in the plan of salvation? I think it’s because there is enough in this life to be concerned with without worrying about what will happen later. Sorry for departing from the main theme but these questions come to mind whenever purgatory is discussed.

 

[John_oxios]

ron77nyc;7090952]What kind of comfort is it to know that your child is eternally separated from God and family? It would have been much wiser to say “no one knows but we trust our merciful Father in heaven.”

Hi Ron,
who said anything about eternally separated? Is that what you believe?

How do we know if and when a soul is in purgatory and for how long? I don’t think they have 24 hour days, a 7 day work week or a 365 day year in purgatory

.

Purgatory is out of time, its in eternity, we are in time.

Jesus didn’t preach against homosexuality either. Does that make it OK?

Before you speak at least look it up!

Go back and read your Bible, Lev 20:13 If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death, their blood is upon them.

It was against the Law!!!

Now
2 Macc 12:40

But under the tunic of each of the dead they found amulets sacred to the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. So it was clear to all that this was why these men had been slain.
41
They all therefore praised the ways of the Lord, the just judge who brings to light the things that are hidden.
42
Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas warned the soldiers to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen.
43
He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view;
44
for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death.
45
But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought.
46
Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin

Maccabees was a Book used by Jews in Jesus’ time.

With the exception of Mary and Jesus, who has lead a perfect life? No one has so that would mean that all go to purgatory before heaven. Why didn’t Jesus or the apostles explain that in the plan of salvation? I think it’s because there is enough in this life to be concerned with without worrying about what will happen later. Sorry for departing from the main theme but these questions come to mind whenever purgatory is discussed

.

Maybe John the Baptist? Enoch? Elijah?

The Russian Orthodox call it toll Houses, the Greek Orthodox call it Apokatastasis,
But they don’t define the middle ground philosophically. That’s the problem they have describing mysteries of God philosophically, or by making it a doctrine of faith which the RCC has done to protect the teaching.

the Jews call it ’ Iam Haba’ which Gehinom (purgatory)

Joihn Chysostom described it as part of our ascending to the Father, passing toll Houses on the way

Outside of the RCC making it doctrine of the faith, when did the idea of Purgatory go out of fashion? its been around since about 350 b.c - 150 b.c. the time of the Sadducee and pharisee split.

Call it what you like, but there are sins that will be paid for after death, there will be a refining of any stain on our immortal soul so says the Bible so says Christ, so say His witnesses and His Church.

Do you think after death judgement is a pass or fail?

Judgement awaits 1Cr 11:32 But when we are judged by the Lord, we are chastened so that we may not be condemned along with the world.

1Cr 3:12 "Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw–
13 each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Mat 5:26 truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.

God bless,
John

 

[ron77nyc]

Hi Ron,
who said anything about eternally separated? Is that what you believe

baltimore-catechism.com/lesson14.htm
Q. 632. Where will persons go who – such as infants – have not committed actual sin and who, through no fault of theirs, die without baptism?
A. Persons, such as infants, who have not committed actual sin and who, through no fault of theirs, die without baptism, cannot enter heaven; but it is the common belief they will go to some place similar to Limbo, where they will be free from suffering, though deprived of the happiness of heaven.

Purgatory is out of time, its in eternity, we are in time.

Exactly. How do we know they have not been purged immediately after dying? “A day is like a thousand years to the Lord, and a thousand years is like a day.”

**1 Cor 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. **

Before you speak at least look it up!

Go back and read your Bible, Lev 20:13 If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death, their blood is upon them.

It was against the Law!!!

Now
2 Macc 12:40

But under the tunic of each of the dead they found amulets sacred to the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. So it was clear to all that this was why these men had been slain.
41
They all therefore praised the ways of the Lord, the just judge who brings to light the things that are hidden.
42
Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas warned the soldiers to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen.
43
He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view;
44
for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death.
45
But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought.
46
Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin

Maccabees was a Book used by Jews in Jesus’ time.

These are all old testament books. When Jesus was alive the old covenant was still valid. When Jesus died the new covenant replaced the old covenant. The souls being held were liberated.

.Matthew 27:50 And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.
51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. 52 The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus’ resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

Maybe John the Baptist? Enoch? Elijah?

Were they born without original sin?

Call it what you like, but there are sins that will be paid for after death, there will be a refining of any stain on our immortal soul so says the Bible so says Christ, so say His witnesses and His Church.

Do you think after death judgement is a pass or fail?

Are there some sins that Jesus did not pay for?

Judgement awaits 1Cr 11:32 But when we are judged by the Lord, we are chastened so that we may not be condemned along with the world.

1Cr 3:12 "Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw–
13 each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Mat 5:26 truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.

This sounds like we have to pay for our sins. If we have to pay then why did Jesus also have to pay?

 

[John_oxios]

W
. Sorry for departing from the main theme but these questions come to mind whenever purgatory is discussed.

Well not really departing, The West and the East will have to come to an understanding of Philosophical differences… we teach essentially the same truth.
Real Presence of Christ, we use visual aids to help us remember those who lived in Christ before us, etc.etc.

Now here’s what the E.O doesn’t tell you:

The Council of Florence, 1438

When the unsuccessful attempt to merge the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches was made at the Council of Florence, the Roman Catholics and all but one of the Eastern Orthodox representatives agreed to a statement about the existence of purgatory:

The Council reached a near consensus that:

“But if souls have departed this life in faith and love, while nevertheless carrying away with themselves certain faults, whether small ones [what Catholics call “venial sins”] over which they have not repented at all, or greater ones for which - even though they have repented over them - they did not undertake to show fruits of repentance: such souls, we believe, must be cleansed from this kind of sins but not by means of some purgatorial fire or a definite punishment in some place.” 1
The lone objector, St. Mark of Ephesus, disagreed on only twp minor points: he did not believe that torture in Purgatory was limited to fire. He believed that it could take many forms, and so preferred the use of the generic term “pains” in place of “fire.” He also objected to Purgatory being referred to as being “in some place.” He wrote:
“The souls of those who depart this life with true repentance and in the love of God, before they have rendered satisfaction for their trespasses and negligences by worthy fruits of repentance, are cleansed after death by cleansing pains.” 1
This near consensus ended shortly after the council when most of the Eastern Orthodox represented retracted their agreement.

Isn’t the E.O. statement of Orthodoxy as ‘never changed’

Some note in the back of a very used Bible

Purgatory is a temporary state of purification for the imperfect saints. The souls of the just who have died in the state of Grace but with venial sins, or with reparation due to forgiven mortal and venial sins are fully cleansed in purgatory so that they may enter heaven. In purgatory all remaining reparation for sin is made, all self remaining love is purged and purified until only love of God remains.

Remember these three points:

1] Only imperfect saints in the state of grace enter purgatory. It is not a ‘second chance’ for those who die in un- repented mortal sin.

2] Purgatory exists for purification and reparation, the effects of sin are purged, the punishments due to sin are paid.

3] Purgatory is only temporary, once the imperfect saints are purified they enter heaven. Purgatory will then cease to exist, only heaven and hell will remain eternally.

Some of the earliest Christian Liturgies include prayers for the dead, ancient Christian tomb inscriptions from 2nd and 3rd centuries frequently contain an appeal for prayers for the dead. This practice makes sense only if early Christians
believed in a’purgatory’ (or middle ground) even if they didn’t have a name for it.

Praying for the dead presumes an intermediate state of purification, what ever you may call it.

From San Juan Catholic Seminars,
catholicapologetics.com/

by the way The above URL has great pamphletes for about $6:00 each for budding apologists

San Juan Catholic Seminars
P.O. Box 5253
Farmington, NM 87499
(505) 327-5343
(877) 327-5343
(fax) (505) 327-9554
shop.catholicapologetics.com/category.sc?categoryId=2

A deacon lent me a few of these yrs ago, and i couldn’t help but return to the Catholic faith.

God bless,
John

 

[ron77nyc]

Remember these three points:

1] Only imperfect saints in the state of grace enter purgatory. It is not a ‘second chance’ for those who die in un- repented mortal sin.

2] Purgatory exists for purification and reparation, the effects of sin are purged, the punishments due to sin are paid.

3] Purgatory is only temporary, once the imperfect saints are purified they enter heaven. Purgatory will then cease to exist, only heaven and hell will remain eternally.

Some of the earliest Christian Liturgies include prayers for the dead, ancient Christian tomb inscriptions from 2nd and 3rd centuries frequently contain an appeal for prayers for the dead. This practice makes sense only if early Christians
believed in a’purgatory’ (or middle ground) even if they didn’t have a name for it.

Praying for the dead presumes an intermediate state of purification, what ever you may call it.

From San Juan Catholic Seminars,
catholicapologetics.com/

by the way The above URL has great pamphletes for about $6:00 each for budding apologists

San Juan Catholic Seminars
P.O. Box 5253
Farmington, NM 87499
(505) 327-5343
(877) 327-5343
(fax) (505) 327-9554
shop.catholicapologetics.com/category.sc?categoryId=2

A deacon lent me a few of these yrs ago, and i couldn’t help but return to the Catholic faith.

God bless,
John

Thank you

 

[John_oxios]

W
. Sorry for departing from the main theme but these questions come to mind whenever purgatory is discussed.

Well not really departing, The West and the East will have to come to an understanding of Philosophical differences… we teach essentially the same truth.
Real Presence of Christ, we use visual aids to help us remember those who lived in Christ before us, etc.etc.

Now here’s what the E.O doesn’t tell you:

The Council of Florence, 1438

When the unsuccessful attempt to merge the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches was made at the Council of Florence, the Roman Catholics and all but one of the Eastern Orthodox representatives agreed to a statement about the existence of purgatory:

The Council reached a near consensus that:

“But if souls have departed this life in faith and love, while nevertheless carrying away with themselves certain faults, whether small ones [what Catholics call “venial sins”] over which they have not repented at all, or greater ones for which - even though they have repented over them - they did not undertake to show fruits of repentance: such souls, we believe, must be cleansed from this kind of sins but not by means of some purgatorial fire or a definite punishment in some place.” 1
The lone objector, St. Mark of Ephesus, disagreed on only twp minor points: he did not believe that torture in Purgatory was limited to fire. He believed that it could take many forms, and so preferred the use of the generic term “pains” in place of “fire.” He also objected to Purgatory being referred to as being “in some place.” He wrote:
“The souls of those who depart this life with true repentance and in the love of God, before they have rendered satisfaction for their trespasses and negligences by worthy fruits of repentance, are cleansed after death by cleansing pains.” 1
This near consensus ended shortly after the council when most of the Eastern Orthodox represented retracted their agreement.

Isn’t the E.O. statement of Orthodoxy as ‘never changed’

Some note in the back of a very used Bible

Purgatory is a temporary state of purification for the imperfect saints. The souls of the just who have died in the state of Grace but with venial sins, or with reparation due to forgiven mortal and venial sins are fully cleansed in purgatory so that they may enter heaven. In purgatory all remaining reparation for sin is made, all self remaining love is purged and purified until only love of God remains.

Remember these three points:

1] Only imperfect saints in the state of grace enter purgatory. It is not a ‘second chance’ for those who die in un- repented mortal sin.

2] Purgatory exists for purification and reparation, the effects of sin are purged, the punishments due to sin are paid.

3] Purgatory is only temporary, once the imperfect saints are purified they enter heaven. Purgatory will then cease to exist, only heaven and hell will remain eternally.

Some of the earliest Christian Liturgies include prayers for the dead, ancient Christian tomb inscriptions from 2nd and 3rd centuries frequently contain an appeal for prayers for the dead. This practice makes sense only if early Christians
believed in a’purgatory’ (or middle ground) even if they didn’t have a name for it.

Praying for the dead presumes an intermediate state of purification, what ever you may call it.

From San Juan Catholic Seminars,
catholicapologetics.com/

by the way The above URL has great pamphletes for about $6:00 each for budding apologists

San Juan Catholic Seminars
P.O. Box 5253
Farmington, NM 87499
(505) 327-5343
(877) 327-5343
(fax) (505) 327-9554
shop.catholicapologetics.com/category.sc?categoryId=2

A deacon lent me a few of these yrs ago, and i couldn’t help but return to the Catholic faith.

God bless,
John

 

[Hesychios]

Now here’s what the E.O doesn’t tell you:

The Council of Florence, 1438 ...

Just a western Robber Council.

 

[John_oxios]

Ron77nyc;7091327]baltimore-catechism.com/lesson14.htm
Q. 632. Where will persons go who – such as infants – have not committed actual sin and who, through no fault of theirs, die without baptism?
A. Persons, such as infants, who have not committed actual sin and who, through no fault of theirs, die without baptism, cannot enter heaven; but it is the common belief they will go to some place similar to Limbo, where they will be free from suffering, though deprived of the happiness of heaven.

Exactly. How do we know they have not been purged immediately after dying? “A day is like a thousand years to the Lord, and a thousand years is like a day.”

hi Ron,

Adding 1Cor 15:51, is not the point… That’s at Christ 2nd coming… there is death and afterlife prior to that in eternity.

Glad to see someone break out a Baltimore Catechism, but that’s for teaching children… #632 is a teaching not necessarily doctrine… correct me if am wrong please, I’ll look into it more… however he Church doesn’t teach 'limbo ’ any longer, you rarely hear of it with the exception of Old dudes like me, from back in the sixties.

But biblically David believes;

2Sa 12:19 But when David saw that his servants were whispering together, David perceived that the child was dead; and David said to his servants, “Is the child dead?” They said, “He is dead.”

20 Then David arose from the earth, and washed, and anointed himself, and changed his clothes; and he went into the house of the LORD, and worshiped; he then went to his own house; and when he asked, they set food before him, and he ate.
21 Then his servants said to him, “What is this thing that you have done? You fasted and wept for the child while it was alive; but when the child died, you arose and ate food.”

22 He said, "While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, ‘Who knows whether the LORD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?’

23 But now he is dead; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me."

David believes he will join his dead infant son, who died as a direct result of his sin, through his scorn of the Lord (2 Sam 2:14).

The Church doesn’t want to be untruthful, we honestly don’t know what happens to unbaptized infants or Infants destroyed by abortion… but we believe in a Most merciful and loving God, who may have a place for them in the bosom of Abraham, Father of believers in God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

These are all old testament books. When Jesus was alive the old covenant was still valid. When Jesus died the new covenant replaced the old covenant. The souls being held were liberated

.

Owww Old Testament not valid ouch!!! Not so the Old reflects the New Testament, the new revealed in the Old Testament. The O.T points us to Christ, without the O.T. we really can’t interpret the New Testament, and How God works in Mans life.

Were they born without original sin?

It’s not a Church teaching but in theological circles John the Baptist was full of the holy Spirit when he was formed in the womb

Luk 1:15 for he will be great before the Lord, and he shall drink no wine nor strong drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother’s womb.

Jesus said, Mat 11:11 Truly, I say to you, among those born of women there has risen no one greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Well we know why he would be least in the Kingdom than us, because we will live and die under grace.
But the question remains why is he the greatest man born of a woman? He was the Herald of the Lord Jesus Christ and was born for that purpose…but being filled with the Holy Spirit? and in sin? Hmmm

Are there some sins that Jesus did not pay for?
This sounds like we have to pay for our sins. If we have to pay then why did Jesus also have to pay?

I figured you’d ask that…its the protestants that will tell you Jesus got it all covered that whatever you do you can’t lose your salvation because the Holy Spirit always got your back! We catholics believe salvation is a process, and that you can lose it, however, Jesus opened the Gate of Heaven to allow for forgiveness through His sacrifice, yet we choose to sin knowing that, and and being Human knows our pains our desires gives us a chance to repent our sins here but we are still Judged? correct? Why is there a Judgement, if al is taken care of.
Catholics believe in two Judgements a particular Judgement, when you die, you know where your going, and the Great Judgement where everyone knows where your going.

Sin is a choice which God through Jesus has given us the ability to avoid, if we remain diligent in Prayer and His Word… but we are not perfect, but he knows our hearts.

God bless,
John

 

[John_oxios]

Just a western Robber Council.

and your references please not your opinion.

And **Saint John Chrysostom **, was a babbling lunatic? Or was he the Archbishop of Constantinople, was an important Early Church Father, and Doctor of the Church

Thank you,
God bless,
John

 

[ron77nyc]

Glad to see someone break out a Baltimore Catechism, but that’s for teaching children…

My parents and their generation were taught about limbo for infants and they were adults when I was a child.

#632 is a teaching not necessarily doctrine… correct me if am wrong please, I’ll look into it more… however he Church doesn’t teach 'limbo ’ any longer, you rarely hear of it with the exception of Old dudes like me, from back in the sixties.

It’s not a doctrine but when it was taught it didn’t come with a disclaimer so my next question is: why did the Church allow limbo for infants to be taught for so many centuries if it was not a valid theory?

 

[sidbrown]

…my next question is: why did the Church allow limbo for infants to be taught for so many centuries if it was not a valid theory?

I thought limbo was a valid theory since it was taught in the Baltimore catechism.

 

[John_oxios]

baltimore-catechism.com/lesson14.htm

John quotes 2 Maccabees 12: 40-46

 

[John_oxios]

I thought limbo was a valid theory since it was taught in the Baltimore catechism.

Well it hasn’t been used much since the sixties, you don’t hear much of it in particular these days.

And what is the difference between theory and Doctrine and Dogmas?

** Theory: a proposed explanation whose status is still conjectural, in contrast to well-established propositions that are regarded as reporting matters of actual fact.

               a particular conception or view of something to be done or of the method of doing it; a system of rules or principles.

               contemplation or speculation.**

Doctrine:
a particular principle, position, or policy taught or advocated, as of a religion or government: Catholic doctrines; the Monroe Doctrine.

1. something that is taught; teachings collectively: religious doctrine.
2. a body or system of teachings relating to a particular subject: the doctrine of the Catholic Church.

Dogma

1. a system of principles or tenets, as of a church.

2. **a specific tenet** or doctrine authoritatively laid down, as by a church: the dogma of the Assumption.

3. prescribed doctrine: political dogma.

4. **a settled** or established opinion, **belief, or principle**.

Notion of Limbo Isn’t Closed, Expert Says

Adds It’s a Theological Opinion That Can Be Defended

ewtn.com/library/Theology/znotionlimbo.htm

  The theory of limbo is not ruled out, says a member of the International

Theological Commission, commenting on a study from the panel. …

On April 20, the commission released a document, commissioned under Pope John Paul II, called “The Hope of Salvation for Infants Who Die Without Being Baptized.” Benedict XVI approved it for publication.

In an interview with Inside the Vatican magazine, Sister Butler, who teaches dogmatic theology at St. Joseph’s Seminary in Yonkers, New York, says "the report concludes that limbo remains a ‘possible theological opinion.’ Anyone who wants to defend it is free to do so. This document, however, tries to give a theological rationale for hoping that unbaptized infants may be saved…

…The commission is trying to say what the Catechism of the Catholic Church — Nos. 1260, 1261, 1283 — has already said: that we have a right to hope that God will find a way to offer the grace of Christ to infants who have no opportunity for making a personal choice with regard to their salvation." …

Extra-sacramental gift

The theological commission’s document, she said, “just indicates that given our understanding of God’s mercy and the plan of salvation which includes Christ and the gift of the Holy Spirit in the Church, we dare to hope that these infants will be saved by some extra-sacramental gift of Christ.”

“We do not know what the destiny of these children is,” she said, "but we have grounds for hope."

God bless,
John