Fate of Eastern Catholic Churches if Orthodox are Reconciled

[Vico]

If Orthodox Catholics are reconciled, what is the fate of all who lived before the reconciliation? According to Roman tradition and law there is no salvation without submission to the Roman Pontiff.

I suppose you are thinking of these dogma de fide listed by Ludwig Ott?:

1. According to Christ’s ordinance, Peter is to have successors in his Primacy over the whole Church and for all time.
2. The successors of Peter in the Primacy are the bishops of Rome.
3. The Pope possesses full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the whole Church, not merely in matters of faith and morals, but also in Church discipline and in the government of the Church.
4. The Pope is infallible when he speaks ex cathedra.

 

[ron77nyc]

I was thinking about the following statements which do not offer eternal life to anyone who is not Roman Catholic. My question is: When or if unity is acheived, what happens to those who lived and died before unity was acheived?

Fulgentius of Ruspe

“Anyone who receives the sacrament of baptism, whether in the Catholic Church or in a heretical or schismatic one, receives the whole sacrament; but salvation, which is the strength of the sacrament, he will not have, if he has had the sacrament outside the Catholic Church [and remains in deliberate schism]. He must therefore return to the Church, not so that he might receive again the sacrament of baptism, which no one dare repeat in any baptized person, but so that he may receive eternal life in Catholic society, for the obtaining of which no one is suited who, even with the sacrament of baptism, remains estranged from the Catholic Church” (The Rule of Faith 43 [A.D. 524]).

" There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which no one at all is saved." (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215 A.D.)

" We declare,say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff."

(Pope Boniface VIII, the Papal Bull " Unam Sanctum", 1302 A.D.)

" The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatic’s, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her. and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgiving, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian solder. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, not even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church."

( Pope Eugene IV, the Papal Bull " Cantate Domino", 1441 A.D.)

 

[sidbrown]

I
" We declare,say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff."

(Pope Boniface VIII, the Papal Bull " Unam Sanctum", 1302 A.D.)

" The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatic’s, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her. and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgiving, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian solder. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, not even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church."

( Pope Eugene IV, the Papal Bull " Cantate Domino", 1441 A.D.)

I think that this teaching has been changed since Vatican II, so that it is now taught that our elder brothers in the faith, the Jews, can be saved even though they have never been baptised. And it is also taught that other non-Christians such as Buddhists can be saved as long as they lead a good life.

 

[Matariel]

I think that this teaching has been changed since Vatican II, so that it is now taught that our elder brothers in the faith, the Jews, can be saved even though they have never been baptised. And it is also taught that other non-Christians such as Buddhists can be saved as long as they lead a good life.

No, you’re gravely mistaken; Catholic dogma cannot change. In fact, Vatican II was a pastoral council, not a doctrinal one; it defined no new dogma, nor did it change any new one. One must be in communion within the Catholic Church in order to gain salvation. There is absolutely no salvation outside the Catholic Church (de fide).

“[O]utside the Church there is no Holy Spirit, sound faith moreover cannot exist, not alone among heretics, but even among those who are established in schism” (Treatise on Rebaptism 10 [A.D. 256]). St. Cyprian of Carthage.

“We believe also in the holy Church, that is, the Catholic Church. For heretics violate the faith itself by a false opinion about God; schismatics, however, withdraw from fraternal love by hostile separations, although they believe the same things we do. Consequently, neither heretics nor schismatics belong to the Catholic Church; not heretics, because the Church loves God; and not schismatics, because the Church loves neighbor” (Faith and the Creed 10:21 [A.D. 393]). St. Augustine.

Some may supernaturally be joined to the Church at the moment before death, however, if they were in invincible ignorance of the Catholic Church’s truth.

 

[Vico]

I think that this teaching has been changed since Vatican II, so that it is now taught that our elder brothers in the faith, the Jews, can be saved even though they have never been baptised. And it is also taught that other non-Christians such as Buddhists can be saved as long as they lead a good life.

CCC 818 “…All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians. …”

CCC 846 **“Outside the Church there is no salvation. **How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body … Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.”

CCC 847 “…Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation…”

 

[sidbrown]

No, you’re gravely mistaken; Catholic dogma cannot change. In fact, Vatican II was a pastoral council, not a doctrinal one; it defined no new dogma, nor did it change any new one. One must be in communion within the Catholic Church in order to gain salvation. There is absolutely no salvation outside the Catholic Church (de fide).

“[O]utside the Church there is no Holy Spirit, sound faith moreover cannot exist, not alone among heretics, but even among those who are established in schism” (Treatise on Rebaptism 10 [A.D. 256]). St. Cyprian of Carthage.

“We believe also in the holy Church, that is, the Catholic Church. For heretics violate the faith itself by a false opinion about God; schismatics, however, withdraw from fraternal love by hostile separations, although they believe the same things we do. Consequently, neither heretics nor schismatics belong to the Catholic Church; not heretics, because the Church loves God; and not schismatics, because the Church loves neighbor” (Faith and the Creed 10:21 [A.D. 393]). St. Augustine.
.

I would say that you are wrong because heretics, Jews, Buddhists, and Hindhus can be saved. In fact, this is clear from the official teaching of the Roman Catholic Church as stated in the catechism:
CCC 847 “…Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation…”
And in fact, Cardinal Kasper has stated that the Old Covenant is salvific for the Jews and as far as I know the Pope has never asked him to retract this statement. Actually, the Pope has stated that the Jews are our elder brothers in the faith. So is the Pope wrong on this, and you are right?
So the official teaching of the Roman Catholic Church has been changed and now it is taught that a heretic and a Jew can be saved, whereas before it was taught that a heretic and a Jew cannot be saved.

 

[josephdaniel29]

No, you’re gravely mistaken; Catholic dogma cannot change. In fact, Vatican II was a pastoral council, not a doctrinal one; it defined no new dogma, nor did it change any new one. One must be in communion within the Catholic Church in order to gain salvation. There is absolutely no salvation outside the Catholic Church (de fide).

“[O]utside the Church there is no Holy Spirit, sound faith moreover cannot exist, not alone among heretics, but even among those who are established in schism” (Treatise on Rebaptism 10 [A.D. 256]). St. Cyprian of Carthage.

“We believe also in the holy Church, that is, the Catholic Church. For heretics violate the faith itself by a false opinion about God; schismatics, however, withdraw from fraternal love by hostile separations, although they believe the same things we do. Consequently, neither heretics nor schismatics belong to the Catholic Church; not heretics, because the Church loves God; and not schismatics, because the Church loves neighbor” (Faith and the Creed 10:21 [A.D. 393]). St. Augustine.

Some may supernaturally be joined to the Church at the moment before death, however, if they were in invincible ignorance of the Catholic Church’s truth.

CCC 818 “…All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians. …”

CCC 846 **“Outside the Church there is no salvation. **How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body … Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.”

CCC 847 “…Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation…”

Fascinating.

 

[ron77nyc]

Fascinating.

It is fascinating. That’s why I brought it up. The Catholic Church has always taught that only baptized Catholics can be saved. Vatican II teaches non-Catholics can be saved only if they don’t know they have to be Catholic to be saved.

 

[IHeartAquinas]

It is fascinating. That’s why I brought it up. The Catholic Church has always taught that only baptized Catholics can be saved. Vatican II teaches non-Catholics can be saved only if they don’t know they have to be Catholic to be saved.

This is only if they absolutely do NOT know. Given that there is a Catholic church on almost every conceivable locale (almost…China and N. Korea are tough nuts to crack), the likelihood of the Buddhists and Hindus in question not having heard the facts of the Catholic Church’s teachings on salvation is slim to nil. Having heard and rejected, they are condemned to hell, no matter how ardently they strain to be righteous. If they have not heard, and have not had a chance to accept or reject it, they can find salvation via the doctrine of Incurable Ignorance. The teaching has not changed. A simple qualifier has been added to clarify.

 

[ron77nyc]

So if we take this line of thought literally then we have to say that all Eastern Orthodox Christians had the potential to be saved before 1054. After 1054 there was no possibility of salvation for any Eastern Orthodox Christian. If unity is accomplished there will be the possibility once again for salvation but any Eastern Orthodox Christian who died between 1054 and the date unity is restored will not have salvation. At what point do we say this is ridiculous?

 

[dcointin]

So if we take this line of thought literally then we have to say that all Eastern Orthodox Christians had the potential to be saved before 1054. After 1054 there was no possibility of salvation for any Eastern Orthodox Christian. If unity is accomplished there will be the possibility once again for salvation but any Eastern Orthodox Christian who died between 1054 and the date unity is restored will not have salvation. At what point do we say this is ridiculous?

Further, how can the Orthodox have valid orders and sacraments, which the Catholic Church says that they do, and also not have the possibility of salvation? If the sacraments are valid they are efficacious, i.e. give grace, and how can the grace of God fail to save?

The “no salvation…” teaching simply cannot be understood in absolute sense.

 

[StevenDunn]

I don’t have time to dig it up right now, but the Catholic Church positively affirmed the salvation of the Orthodox both prior to Unam Sanctam as well as near immediately after it. The situation is considerably messier than it appears from the quotes. The later VII interpretation of things is, to my understanding, in part a restoration of a view of salvation that gradually disappeared, as well as an extension of that same view to groups that the Catholic Church hadn’t encountered, or had encountered but didn’t understand.

Traditionalists like to imagine the Latin Church’s positions are absolute and timeless, but the reality is far from it, and often popular views disappear b/c of cultural and historical reasons. Compare the Ancient and Medieval view of the papacy to the later ultra-montane version favored by Trads.

But this is all meaningless without some supporting information, and I have to get to work. If anyone else can post supporting information before I can, please do!

 

[Vico]

I don’t have time to dig it up right now, but the Catholic Church positively affirmed the salvation of the Orthodox both prior to Unam Sanctam as well as near immediately after it. The situation is considerably messier than it appears from the quotes. The later VII interpretation of things is, to my understanding, in part a restoration of a view of salvation that gradually disappeared, as well as an extension of that same view to groups that the Catholic Church hadn’t encountered, or had encountered but didn’t understand.

Traditionalists like to imagine the Latin Church’s positions are absolute and timeless, but the reality is far from it, and often popular views disappear b/c of cultural and historical reasons. Compare the Ancient and Medieval view of the papacy to the later ultra-montane version favored by Trads.

But this is all meaningless without some supporting information, and I have to get to work. If anyone else can post supporting information before I can, please do!

Catholicism maintains the same teaching both before Vatican II and after, that deliberate formal schism and heresy are grave sins against the Unity of the Church and endanger one’s salvation. However it is not formal for those raised in a different church, and there is invincible ignorance.

CCC 1793 If - on the contrary - the ignorance is invincible, or the moral subject is not responsible for his erroneous judgment, the evil committed by the person cannot be imputed to him. It remains no less an evil, a privation, a disorder. One must therefore work to correct the errors of moral conscience.

From Dominus Iesus:

This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in subsistit in] the Catholic Church, governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him”.54 With the expression subsistit in, the Second Vatican Council sought to harmonize two doctrinal statements: on the one hand, that the Church of Christ, despite the divisions which exist among Christians, continues to exist fully only in the Catholic Church, and on the other hand, that “outside of her structure, many elements can be found of sanctification and truth”,55 that is, in those Churches and ecclesial communities which are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church.56 But with respect to these, it needs to be stated that “they derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church”.57

1. Therefore, there exists a single Church of Christ, which subsists in the Catholic Church, governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him.58 The Churches which, while not existing in perfect communion with the Catholic Church, remain united to her by means of the closest bonds, that is, by apostolic succession and a valid Eucharist, are true particular Churches.59 Therefore, the Church of Christ is present and operative also in these Churches, even though they lack full communion with the Catholic Church, since they do not accept the Catholic doctrine of the Primacy, which, according to the will of God, the Bishop of Rome objectively has and exercises over the entire Church.60

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html

 

[sidbrown]

Catholicism maintains the same teaching both before Vatican II and after,

i don’t think so.
I think that it was taught before that Jews could not be saved, whereas it is now taught that Jews are are elder brothers in the faith and can be saved.
This looks like it is a serious change in the teaching of the Catholic Church.

 

[Vico]

i don’t think so.
I think that it was taught before that Jews could not be saved, whereas it is now taught that Jews are are elder brothers in the faith and can be saved.
This looks like it is a serious change in the teaching of the Catholic Church.

Jews still cannot be saved, outside the church, because all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body.

The previous posting is consistent with Lumen Gentium from Vatican II, The Mystery of the church, 14-16, which Council did not declare any new dogmas of faith. “Outside the Church there is no salvation,” was and is still true. One has to correctly understand what that means. It is important not to confuse “the plan of salvation” with “being saved”. "Outside the Church there is no salvation" is the basis of our missionary activity.

Quoted in the CCC 816:

The Second Vatican Council’s Decree on Ecumenism explains: “For it is through Christ’s Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God.”

CCC 819:

"Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

 

[Matariel]

I would say that you are wrong because heretics, Jews, Buddhists, and Hindhus can be saved. In fact, this is clear from the official teaching of the Roman Catholic Church as stated in the catechism:
CCC 847 “…Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation…”
And in fact, Cardinal Kasper has stated that the Old Covenant is salvific for the Jews and as far as I know the Pope has never asked him to retract this statement. Actually, the Pope has stated that the Jews are our elder brothers in the faith. So is the Pope wrong on this, and you are right?
So the official teaching of the Roman Catholic Church has been changed and now it is taught that a heretic and a Jew can be saved, whereas before it was taught that a heretic and a Jew cannot be saved.

You’re overlooking the fact that they can only can be saved by unity on some level with the Catholic Church. That’s de fide and undeniable. Otherwise you’re a heretic.

 

[ron77nyc]

Catholicism maintains the same teaching both before Vatican II and after, that deliberate formal schism and heresy are grave sins against the Unity of the Church and endanger one’s salvation. However it is not formal for those raised in a different church, and there is invincible ignorance.

i don’t think so.
I think that it was taught before that Jews could not be saved, whereas it is now taught that Jews are are elder brothers in the faith and can be saved.
This looks like it is a serious change in the teaching of the Catholic Church.

It is a serious change. The Council of Florence and Unam Sanctum meet the 4 tests of infallibility and they exclude every non-Roman Catholic from eternal life with no room for exceptions.

ewtn.com/library/ISSUES/ORDIN.TXT
There are, clearly, four tests of infallibility: The Pope must be (1) intending to teach (2) by virtue of his supreme apostolic authority (3) a matter of Faith or morals (4) to be held by the universal Church.

" We declare,say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff."

(Pope Boniface VIII, the Papal Bull " Unam Sanctum", 1302 A.D.)

" The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatic’s, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her. and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgiving, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian solder. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, not even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church."

( Pope Eugene IV, the Papal Bull " Cantate Domino", 1441 A.D.)

This change opens up more questions for me. If all popes are not in agreement how could they all be infallible? If the Catholic Church has the fullness of truth why didn’t they know about salvation for the invincibly ignorant before Vatican II?

 

[fritzz_ezz]

Jews still cannot be saved, outside the church, because all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body.

You need to read Romans again. Jews are judged by the Law, not Grace.

 

[sidbrown]

You’re overlooking the fact that they can only can be saved by unity on some level with the Catholic Church. That’s de fide and undeniable. Otherwise you’re a heretic.

I don’t think that you are the one who judges who is or who is not a heretic. Who designated you to make this decision for the Roman Catholic Church? Who gave you this authority? Cardinal Kasper has specifically stated that the Old Covenant is salvific for the Jews and he remains in 100% good standing in the Roman Catholic Church.

 

[Vico]

It is a serious change. The Council of Florence and Unam Sanctum meet the 4 tests of infallibility and they exclude every non-Roman Catholic from eternal life with no room for exceptions.
ewtn.com/library/ISSUES/ORDIN.TXT
There are, clearly, four tests of infallibility: The Pope must be (1) intending to teach (2) by virtue of his supreme apostolic authority (3) a matter of Faith or morals (4) to be held by the universal Church.

" We declare,say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff."
(Pope Boniface VIII, the Papal Bull " Unam Sanctum", 1302 A.D.)

" The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatic’s, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her. and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgiving, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian solder. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, not even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church."

( Pope Eugene IV, the Papal Bull " Cantate Domino", 1441 A.D.)

This change opens up more questions for me. If all popes are not in agreement how could they all be infallible? If the Catholic Church has the fullness of truth why didn’t they know about salvation for the invincibly ignorant before Vatican II?

Reverse your questions. Since all popes are in infallible agreement, how can my understanding be correct? If I have the fullness of truth why don’t I know about invincible ignorance before Vatican II?

There is no conflict at all between the teachings of the popes.

Unum Sanctum was written because French Catholics were not submitting to the Pope. Unum Sanctum’s only infallible definition is “that it is absolutely necessary for salvation (omnino esse de necessitate salutis) for all human beings (omni humanae creaturae) to be subject (subesse) to the Roman Pontiff”. This is actually quoted from St. Thomas Aquinas, Contra Errores Graecorum, Part II, Chapter 38.

A previous (to Unum Sanctum) infallable dogma is that “Outside the Church there is no salvation”.

This is very important in Pope Eugene IV’s statement: “unless before death they are joined with Her”. He is not saying they are damned.

It is illogical to say that all non-Catholics are necessarily damned, but what can be said is what is needed for salvation.