Fate of un-Baptized babies

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Ite_ad_Ioseph

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romancatholicism.org/jansenism/limbo-pelagianism.htm

I know this site is BAD, AND run by what appears to be sedevancantists It claims unbaptized babies go to hell, and approved by Church Councils and Popes. etc.
My foolish common logic says : Why should unbaptized babies suffer hellfire? What did they do besides their accident of fate of being born to uncaring parents or they happen to die sometime between birth and baptism?
Somebody prove me wrong now.:confused:
 
Ite_ad_Ioseph said:
romancatholicism.org/jansenism/limbo-pelagianism.htm

I know this site is BAD, AND run by what appears to be sedevancantists It claims unbaptized babies go to hell, and approved by Church Councils and Popes. etc.
My foolish common logic says : Why should unbaptized babies suffer hellfire? What did they do besides their accident of fate of being born to uncaring parents or they happen to die sometime between birth and baptism?
Somebody prove me wrong now.:confused:
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They don’t go to hell

there is another topic about this in here :

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=117888

Basically it says that God has a plan for them, since there is a lot of mansions, we don’t know where and how it will be
In my Father’s house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
John, 14:2-3
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They are in heaven the character and nature of God is consistent and there are a a handful of OT scriptures that indicate as such…Just like baptized babies (one in the same)
 
To make since of the Church’s older teachings:

I’m no expert, I have a lot to learn, but I would say this.
  1. Baptism is necessary
  2. Baptism by desire is a real phenomenon
  3. Infants are Baptized by their patents will
  4. It makes since in my limited understanding that a parents will for baptizing a child would work as a Baptism by desire.
  5. God’s grace is bound in the sacraments, not by the sacraments. All church teaching on the subject in Church councils (Trent, esp.) concerns the normal method of salvation, but Baptism by desire is a long held Tradition of the Church and I would think that it applies here, but again, I’m no expert.
How do we reconcile this with “Bad” websites, well we don’t have to, trust in Jesus! Jesus promised that his Church would not fall into error and that he would be with us! No reformer, sedevaconist, traditionalist or anyone else should shake our faith and trust in Christ, that His Church will continue on free from error by His Grace.

So in this light the current teaching does not teach that those children are going to Hell, at least we cannot know that. Maybe they do, maybe they don’t, thats all we can say for anyone (except saints of course, who we know are in heaven).

Bottom line:

The babies do not deserve heaven, only Jesus can merit heaven
Jesus gave us Baptism to incorporate ourselves to his body so we can get to heaven.
A type of Baptism may be available for unborn children.
Watch out for schismatic websites! They’re no good, cling to Christ and His Church, His Bride!
 
Ite_ad_Ioseph said:
romancatholicism.org/jansenism/limbo-pelagianism.htm

I know this site is BAD, AND run by what appears to be sedevancantists It claims unbaptized babies go to hell, and approved by Church Councils and Popes. etc.
My foolish common logic says : Why should unbaptized babies suffer hellfire? What did they do besides their accident of fate of being born to uncaring parents or they happen to die sometime between birth and baptism?
Somebody prove me wrong now.:confused:
Click to expand...
The Church officially says that we don’t know what happens to unbaptized infants who die, we however can hope that God might have a way of saving them. But we do not know for certain.
 
Neal said:
To make since of the Church’s older teachings:

I’m no expert, I have a lot to learn, but I would say this.
Click to expand...
  1. Baptism is necessary
YES, for those who have access to Baptism.
  1. Baptism by desire is a real phenomenon
YES, for those who express a desire but die before being able to be Baptized.
  1. Infants are Baptized by their patents will
NO. Infants are not Baptized by their parents will.
  1. It makes since in my limited understanding that a parents will for baptizing a child would work as a Baptism by desire.
No, Baptism of Desire does not apply to infants.
  1. God’s grace is bound in the sacraments, not by the sacraments. All church teaching on the subject in Church councils (Trent, esp.) concerns the normal method of salvation, but Baptism by desire is a long held Tradition of the Church and I would think that it applies here, but again, I’m no expert.
See above.
 
myfavoritmartin said:
They are in heaven the character and nature of God is consistent and there are a a handful of OT scriptures that indicate as such…Just like baptized babies (one in the same)
Click to expand...
I’ll just point out that if this is the case then the first sin (in the accurate sense) that a child commits places him on the path to an eternity in hell. You’ll also have to square that with the character and nature of God.

Note that I’m not suggesting that unbaptized babies go to hell. The Church allows us to hope for them, and so I hope for them. All I’m saying is that at best this only moves the “tipping point” out a few years.
 
VociMike said:
I’ll just point out that if this is the case then the first sin (in the accurate sense) that a child commits places him on the path to an eternity in hell. You’ll also have to square that with the character and nature of God.

Note that I’m not suggesting that unbaptized babies go to hell. The Church allows us to hope for them, and so I hope for them. All I’m saying is that at best this only moves the “tipping point” out a few years.
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I personally get a kick out of LIMBO. It sounds like a Latin dance.
The crazies that believe such nonsense is funny. God, who is LOVE and MERCY wouldn’t send them to hell.

Christ must be disgusted with such foolishness. I can’t believe people aren’t outraged by the sophomoric inclinations of the fringes:mad:
 
Br.Rich_SFO said:
  1. Baptism is necessary
YES, for those who have access to Baptism.
  1. Baptism by desire is a real phenomenon
YES, for those who express a desire but die before being able to be Baptized.
  1. Infants are Baptized by their patents will
NO. Infants are not Baptized by their parents will.
  1. It makes since in my limited understanding that a parents will for baptizing a child would work as a Baptism by desire.
No, Baptism of Desire does not apply to infants.
  1. God’s grace is bound in the sacraments, not by the sacraments. All church teaching on the subject in Church councils (Trent, esp.) concerns the normal method of salvation, but Baptism by desire is a long held Tradition of the Church and I would think that it applies here, but again, I’m no expert.
See above.
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My mistake, so please tell me Brother, how are infants baptized then if not by their parents will, I’ve seen an infant baptism and they ask if its their desire that the child be baptized, please help me refine and inform my faith. and yess, if point 4 is not right then point 5 would not be either.
 
Thank you for your answers. This clears things up a bit. I’m still confused how they (the website) claim unbaptized infants going to hell is a doctrine defined by Church Councils and Popes. Can anyone refute this?
 
Ite_ad_Ioseph said:
romancatholicism.org/jansenism/limbo-pelagianism.htm

I know this site is BAD, AND run by what appears to be sedevancantists It claims unbaptized babies go to hell, and approved by Church Councils and Popes. etc.
My foolish common logic says : Why should unbaptized babies suffer hellfire? What did they do besides their accident of fate of being born to uncaring parents or they happen to die sometime between birth and baptism?
Somebody prove me wrong now.:confused:
Click to expand...
I am not Catholic, but i have just had a very quick look at the above site. Is it for real?, or is someone just having a sick joke. Am I missing something?:confused:
 
oh its for real, there are many idiots out there, sadly some think they are catholic and us real catholics are not. It’s like they think that the 1 billion or so, including all the bishops are wrong at a few thousand are right…sigh…
 
Neal said:
My mistake, so please tell me Brother, how are infants baptized then if not by their parents will, I’ve seen an infant baptism and they ask if its their desire that the child be baptized, please help me refine and inform my faith. and yess, if point 4 is not right then point 5 would not be either.
Click to expand...
It is proper to say that parents present their child to the Church for the Sacrament of Baptism. Parents do “desire” the Sacrament of Baptism for their child but that has nothing to do with “Baptism of Desire.”
 
Ite_ad_Ioseph said:
Thank you for your answers. This clears things up a bit. I’m still confused how they (the website) claim unbaptized infants going to hell is a doctrine defined by Church Councils and Popes. Can anyone refute this?
Click to expand...
There are several different terms denoting different places, all translated as “Hell” in english. The Church has condemned the idea that children who die with only Original sin are condemned to the “Hell of the Damned.”
 
Br.Rich_SFO said:
It is proper to say that parents present their child to the Church for the Sacrament of Baptism. Parents do “desire” the Sacrament of Baptism for their child but that has nothing to do with “Baptism of Desire.”
Click to expand...
Thanks for the clarification. I guess I cannot really prove why I hold out some hope for these children, though if I had an infant that was sick I would defiantly call a priest right away were I a parent.
 
I think this was well written so I post it again:
Originally Posted by Steve O’Brien [emphisis added]

[L]imbo is only a conjecture, not a dogma, but the exclusion of unbaptized infants from the beatific vision on account of original sin is a dogma, as the entire history of the dogmas of original sin and infant Baptism shows.

We must pray to the Blessed Mother, for she “has destroyed all heresies.” We should especially pray the Rosary for confused and scandalized Catholics who do not realize that a religion in which the Church can contradict her dogmas is not the Catholic religion.

“Limbo” is listed in the official analytical index of the Latin editio typica of the Catechism of the Catholic Church (Vatican City: Libreria Editrice Vaticana, 1997) on page 858:

“Limbus, 1261, cf. Baptismus, Exsequiae.”

It is simply false to say that limbo is absent from the Catechism of the Catholic Church. “Limbo” is listed in the official analytical index of the new catechism. The index mentions “limbo” in connection with section 1261.

In accordance with Catholic tradition, the “hope” mentioned in CCC 1261 should be understood as the hope for salvation from what Jesus calls the “fire” of hell (i.e., the “pain of sense”). It should not be interpreted as hope for the beatific vision.

What is a required belief for Catholics (i.e., a Catholic dogma) is that the souls of those dying in original sin only descend into hell for some kind of punishment.

A Catholic may believe (with St. Augustine) that this punishment is the pain of sense together with deprivation of the beatific vision, or he or she may believe (with St. Thomas Aquinas) that this punishment is merely deprivation of the beatific vision together with substitution of natural for supernatural happiness. St. Thomas’s state of natural happiness is called limbo.

I urge everyone to study Patrick J. Toner’s article on limbo in The Catholic Encyclopedia:

newadvent.org/cathen/09256a.htm
 
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