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BrJuniper
Guest
In the alternative you were perpetuating ignorance.
- Status
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Evan
Guest
Please expand. I don’t see that in any church document. If were true, would not the Church publish such information?
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TheDoctor
Guest
I am sorry for the pain of your miscarried children and I will pray for you and for your twins. Trust that God is a just and merciful God who loves the innocent most of all - and remember we are bound by the Sacraments but God is not.
In regards to Limbo: Limbo was never an official teaching of the Church, only speculation on the part of theologians.
In 2007 Pope Benedict XVI approved the publication of “Hope of Salvation For Infants Who Die Without Being Baptized”: vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070419_un-baptised-infants_en.html
It is a rather long read but the Section 102 seems to address the topic at hand:
102. Within the hope that the Church bears for the whole of humanity and wants to proclaim afresh to the world of today, is there a hope for the salvation of infants who die without Baptism? We have carefully re-considered this complex question, with gratitude and respect for the responses that have been given through the history of the Church, but also with an awareness that it falls to us to give a coherent response for today. Reflecting within the one tradition of faith that unites the Church through the ages, and relying utterly on the guidance of the Holy Spirit whom Jesus promised would lead his followers “into all the truth” (Jn 16:13), we have sought to read the signs of the times and to interpret them in the light of the Gospel. Our conclusion is that the many factors that we have considered above give serious theological and liturgical grounds for hope that unbaptised infants who die will be saved and enjoy the Beatific Vision. We emphasise that these are reasons for prayerful hope, rather than grounds for sure knowledge. There is much that simply has not been revealed to us (cf. Jn 16:12). We live by faith and hope in the God of mercy and love who has been revealed to us in Christ, and the Spirit moves us to pray in constant thankfulness and joy (cf. 1 Thess 5:18).
This publication, by the way, is the reference for the section of the Catechism quoted in a previous post on the fate of the unbaptized. Being included in the Catechism kind of ends a lot of speculation.
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TheDoctor
Guest
I am not sure if that is doctrine either. See the bolded portion of the report in my post above.
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TheDoctor
Guest
I believe that what the poster meant to say is not that they were conceived in sin but that at the moment of conception original sin was placed on their souls.
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BrJuniper
Guest
I suggest a Sacramental Theology Course. The Church deals with absolutes applied to ALL sacraments, not just some. Thus, if you die on the way to confession you are presumed to have confessed by virtue of your intent, and so on.
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Evan
Guest
Ah, so that is what you are referring. That does not apply. For the infant had no intention of being baptized. It would require a different theology.
I intend to get my daughter to confession this weekend. If she dies before I can do that, she does not receive absolution because of my intent. It must be her intent.
Similar with baptism.
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Cristiano
Guest
Now you are trying to support your point by making a generic appeal to authority without providing any fact. That approach can make you feel good but it does not add anything to the discussion.
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BrJuniper
Guest
Is that intentional? No infant has intention so, if we apply your reasoning you just claimed Baptism invalid. Go figure. It is the intention of the Family. Take a class.
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BrJuniper
Guest
OK…take a logic course. Feel better? God does not contradict. Point; To concern oneself with the narrative at the expense of the Truth is grave error.
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Evan
Guest
No, I claimed that Baptism of Desire is only given to the one with the desire. I cannot desire for another.
In infant Baptism, and actual Baptism takes place. Just like with other Sacraments that occur only once, the graces flow when the person is properly disposed. But the effect is immediate.
These include Sacraments of Baptism, Confirmation, and possibly Marriage and Orders.
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BrJuniper
Guest
OK…and of Blood? How about Intention re Sacrament…ALL sacraments? Family as repository of Faith? Couple as symbol of Church? Incarnation?
When taken in its totality it is clear that these fully dignified human persons reside fully in the Love known as the Word Incarnate. Also, telling a woman that her miscarried child is not with God might be an action against dignity, surely it could be outside Love. I prefer to error on the side of Love since I know of no one in Hell but many in heaven.
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Shin
Guest
There’s a good sermon on this subject here – the first part is another subject, the part on Limbo starts at 6:45 in.Shin~
I believe I understand the point you’re making, but I have misinterpreted posts in the past…
Can you please clarify by giving your thoughts or position in regards to the OPs question? I realize how stupid this makes me appear, however I would rather appear stupid now than assume something. I do understand what you have posted above and the reasons behind the excerpts you posted. Thank you kindly.
God Bless~
Thanks for your virtuous question, I could l state how I personally consider it all to fit together, normally I like to cite the holiest authorities so they can speak for themselves and people can work from what they say. With the consensus of the saints we will not go wrong and steer a path through any and all confusion of these times. That’s the way.
We should trust the holiest people closest to God above all others and certainly above our own mental virtues or lack thereof in regards to considering these matters.
If I may quote from the sermon above – “A truth, even a painful truth, is better than a lie.”
We often want to tell people what they want to hear. But reality is not based on how we want it to be, or how we feel it should be, but how it actually is. And to tell people a soothing lie, rather than a painful truth, is not mercy, it’s the opposite.
Every parent is bound under the pain of mortal sin to have their child baptized without too much delay, for a reason.
Every parent is bound to know how to perform baptism in the case of miscarriage for a reason. This is very important. It needs to be understood.
And everyone should think hard on why the Church has not declared 2,000 years ago that all infants who die without baptism go to Heaven. Would she not have eagerly done so for the sake of parents? But despite that it cannot, and does not, and in fact, it is a dogma that all who die in original sin do not gain the beatific vision. (c.f. the Council of Florence, etc.)
When we speak about mercy for infants who die without baptism there are two things we are considering – the mercy God applies to them, outside of their lack of the beatific vision – and the mercy that might have been applied, without our knowledge, that may have gained them the grace of baptism before death.
The prayers of parents who fulfill their responsibility practically, rather than neglectfully, can come into play here.
To give a little more perspective, Pope Sixtus V, who ruled the Papal States, proscribed the death penalty for those who commit an abortion, and said:
‘Who will not detest such an abhorrent and evil act, by which are lost not only the bodies but also the souls? Who will not condemn to a most grave punishment the impiety of him who will exclude a soul created in the image of God and for which Our Lord Jesus Christ has shed His precious Blood, and which is capable of eternal happiness and is destined to be in the company of angels, from the blessed vision of God, and who has impeded as much as he could the filling up of heavenly mansions (left vacant by the fallen angels), and has taken away the service to God by His creature? who has deprived children of life before they could naturally see light or could be protected by maternal body from ferocious cruelty?’
Pope Sixtus V, Apostolic Constitution, “Effraenatam”
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Shin
Guest
For what little it is worth, I put my own thoughts in reply there, forgive me, how it all fits together in my mind, rather than mainly citations as I normally do.
Citations are very helpful they show you do not rely on your own authority and allow people to think and work a little to put it all together, which I think when people work a little they appreciate things more than if they are simply flatly told things at times. God help us poor sinners!
Here for further reference:
'I saw a throne in heaven on which sat the Lord Jesus Christ as Judge.
At his feet sat the Virgin Mary. Surrounding the throne was a host of angels and a countless multitude of saints. A certain monk, a great scholar of theology, stood high up on a rung of a ladder that was fixed in the earth and whose top reached up to heaven. With an impatient and agitated bearing, as though full of wickedness and guile, he put questions to the Judge. . .
First question: Again he appeared on his ladder as before, saying: ”O Judge, I ask you: Why does one infant emerge alive from the mother’s womb and obtain baptism, while another, having received a soul, dies in the mother’s belly?”
Answer to the first question. The Judge answered: ”Friend, your inquiries are not made out of love but are made through my permission. So I answer you through the likeness of words.
You ask why one infant dies in the mother’s belly while another emerges alive. There is a reason. All the strength of the child’s body comes, of course, from the seed of its father and mother; however, if it is conceived without due strength, because of some weakness of its father or mother, it dies quickly. As a result of the negligence or carelessness of the parents as well as of my divine justice, many times it happens that what was joined together comes apart quickly.
Yet a soul is not brought to the harshest punishment for this reason, however little time it had for giving life to the body, but, rather, it comes to the mercy that is known to me. Just as the sun shining into a house is not seen as it is in its beauty - only those who look into the sky see its rays - so too the souls of such children, though they do not see my face for lack of baptism, are nevertheless closer to my mercy than to punishment, but not in the same way as my elect.”
Citations are very helpful they show you do not rely on your own authority and allow people to think and work a little to put it all together, which I think when people work a little they appreciate things more than if they are simply flatly told things at times. God help us poor sinners!
Here for further reference:
'I saw a throne in heaven on which sat the Lord Jesus Christ as Judge.
At his feet sat the Virgin Mary. Surrounding the throne was a host of angels and a countless multitude of saints. A certain monk, a great scholar of theology, stood high up on a rung of a ladder that was fixed in the earth and whose top reached up to heaven. With an impatient and agitated bearing, as though full of wickedness and guile, he put questions to the Judge. . .
First question: Again he appeared on his ladder as before, saying: ”O Judge, I ask you: Why does one infant emerge alive from the mother’s womb and obtain baptism, while another, having received a soul, dies in the mother’s belly?”
Answer to the first question. The Judge answered: ”Friend, your inquiries are not made out of love but are made through my permission. So I answer you through the likeness of words.
You ask why one infant dies in the mother’s belly while another emerges alive. There is a reason. All the strength of the child’s body comes, of course, from the seed of its father and mother; however, if it is conceived without due strength, because of some weakness of its father or mother, it dies quickly. As a result of the negligence or carelessness of the parents as well as of my divine justice, many times it happens that what was joined together comes apart quickly.
Yet a soul is not brought to the harshest punishment for this reason, however little time it had for giving life to the body, but, rather, it comes to the mercy that is known to me. Just as the sun shining into a house is not seen as it is in its beauty - only those who look into the sky see its rays - so too the souls of such children, though they do not see my face for lack of baptism, are nevertheless closer to my mercy than to punishment, but not in the same way as my elect.”
- The Revelations of St. Bridget of Sweden
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KateKimmer
Guest
like it or not…humans of all sizes and shapes and AGES, have original sin ON THEIR SOUL, until it is removed from baptism.
That is why I like the theory of Limbo. It is not a bad place.
That is why I like the theory of Limbo. It is not a bad place.
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BrJuniper
Guest
Incorrect.
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ForGood
Guest
My baby is in Heaven though I picture her in mind as being 24 which she would be if she were here with me.
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Evan
Guest
What’s incorrect. You need to expand on your responses.
The theory of Limbo. It’s a theory, so it’s not a teaching.
It’s not a bad place. I think being in a state of perfect natural happiness is quite nice.
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Bix
Guest
There is no verse that states these babies will go to hell. Not one.
Our God is just and merciful. There are countless verses on God’s forgiveness, mercy and grace and Jesus’ love of children and saying to bring them to him.
In 2 Samuel 12, David seems to know the child he had with Bathsheba went to heaven.
Also,
( Isaiah 7:15 )
“He will eat curds and honey at the time He knows enough to refuse evil and choose good."
The unborn babies are in heaven.
Our God is just and merciful. There are countless verses on God’s forgiveness, mercy and grace and Jesus’ love of children and saying to bring them to him.
In 2 Samuel 12, David seems to know the child he had with Bathsheba went to heaven.
Also,
( Isaiah 7:15 )
“He will eat curds and honey at the time He knows enough to refuse evil and choose good."
The unborn babies are in heaven.
My baby sister with whom my mom miscarried is in heaven now, I am confident of that.- Status