Father catholics are against contraception

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The answer Fr. Serpa gave bothers me. I hear what everyone is saying but it just doesn’t ring true for me.

If my wife is an alcoholic, I understand it would not be sinful for me to keep alcohol in the house for my pleasure but this would certainly encourage the sinfulness of my spouse.

If I were beating my children, would it be sinful for my wife to keep them in the house or sinful for her to run off with them to a safe place?

At what point does my cooperation in another’s sin become sinful for me? And lets remember that what appears to be an innocuous act (using a condom) is deemed gravely sinful by the Catholic Church.

I need some help understanding this one.
 
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Breton:
One more observation/questions.

Fr. Serpa said that the she must attempt to educate her contracepting spouse on the sinfulness of his actions. Would her withholding sex from him be sinful if she saw this as the only way to lead her husband from sin?
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No. However, I’ve heard several presentations by my diocese’s preeminent priest on marriage and family life. Consistent in his message is that it is a sin to withhold sex as punishment. She has expressed to her husband her views on his insistence on using a condom since she won’t use birth control. She is praying for him. To go farther and withhold herself could become punishment.

Regarding your assertion that this is cooperating in his sin, you have to understand the distinction between cooperating/condoning and tolerating. We are to never cooperate but we do sometimes have to tolerate. My best friend’s wife is a gossip. He sometimes holds his tongue as to constantly admonish her (while occassionally expressing his views on her gossiping) would cause disunion in the marriage. Would it be good if he would withhold the marital act if she didn’t quit gossiping?

This post is probably confusing. I urge you to read all the posts on this thread with which you disagree and prayerfully consider them in dialogue with the Holy Spirit. It might make it clear to you what Fr. Serpa is saying. God Bless.
 
the women wouldnt be withholding sex because i dont know the husband hasnt taken out the trash. shed be withholding sex because it causes her husband to sin. she is withholding sex because it is the sex thats the problem.
 
how is it not a cooperation? (understand it can go both ways he/she) she is willing allowing her husband to objectify her by having sex with him in a contraceptive state. ill admit its not the same sin. the culpability is different. now if she enjoys this union of sin then it is. the culpability might be different still but id be willing to bank it is the “faithful spouse” who is more culpable. why? because they know and believe that the act is evil
 
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spotty:
how is it not a cooperation? (understand it can go both ways he/she) she is willing allowing her husband to objectify her by having sex with him in a contraceptive state. ill admit its not the same sin. the culpability is different. now if she enjoys this union of sin then it is. the culpability might be different still but id be willing to bank it is the “faithful spouse” who is more culpable. why? because they know and believe that the act is evil
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You have reached a conclusion that is contrary to Fr. Serpa, the marriage and sex expert (Priest) in my very orthodox diocese, and those expressed by Ana, Rayne, ElizabethAnne, Fix, and the book “Good News about Sex and Marriage” which is a book recommended by our diocese for marriage sponsor couples to read before meeting w/ marriage couples. Until I know more about your theological expertise and ecclesiastical authority, IMHO the faithful would be better advised to ignore your conclusion and accept that of Fr. Serpa et. al.
 
I suggest that before preaching that certain types of foreplay are morally wrong, make sure you are correct. You may unintentionally cause unnecessary problems.

Oral sex as foreplay is important to my wife, but she became afraid that the Church must think it is wrong, and began to abstain from it.

I feel blessed to have relations without the additional bells and whistles, but I was not happy that her frustration from abstaining from oral sex was negatively impacting our marraige. After several months, she had the opportunity and courage to talk to a conservative priest who modestly cut short her question and summed it up: “it’s o.k. if it ends the natural way.” (I don’t believe this would apply to anal as it can be harmful to the body and would require interrupting the act for cleansing before ending the natural way).

Obviously our marraige has other challenges and up and downs that are non-sexual, but I can tell you that our marraige improved tremendously when the priest helped my wife remove this barrier to having her needs fulfilled. (Obviously, a spouse should not bully the other into doing something the other thinks is revolting).

We have beautiful children and follow all guidelines of the Church regarding NFP, etc.

I’m surprised this is the main issue. I was more surprised by the response that one spouse may engage in relations if the other spouse insists on contracepting his or her own body. Both sides of the issue have good points, I don’t feel qualified to comment on it.
 
What Father Serpa said was true. Also as West says you can " refrain from intercourse." He also says “various consequenses of this choice need to be weighed” he also says its not right to make someone do something they dont want to do. talk to your priest read “The Good News About Sex and Marriage.” if you are married or not the book is for all and even has a section for chastity outside of marriage.
 
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spotty:
does anyone not see that they (both) are consenting to sin by allowing it take place. make no mistake this is not something that is beyond our control.
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Spotty- I mayself am in this terrible position. It is hard, and degrading. If I were to forbid my husband sex, we would (he has told me this) end in divorce.

( I did do this for some time before I understood the church’s teaching on my position more fully)

(He is a good man, he truly dosn’t understand how I can now think like this- he thinks he is doing me a “favor” b/c I have been “brainwashed” to believe this. If he REALLY understood, and knew how I felt when he uses a condom, I doubt he could do it.)

Unfortunetly, I am one of many who married someone while far from God. At the time of our Catholic marriage, I truly believed that using contraception to space births was “ok”. I have since learned the truth. I also have 4 children, ages 9. 7. 4, and 1.

If I would allow my marriage to end in a divorce, think of the likely consequences: my DH would most certianly find another woman, and live in adultry. He would also teach my children that “the CC broke up our marraige.” He would also have visitation every other weekend. What would stop him from letting our children date when they turn 12? Or drink in his house and party with friends at 16? As long as it’s daddy’s weekend…

Divorce will not solve the problem of him not understanding the mind of the church, it will only drive him farther from the truth.

Divorce will very likely increase our 4 children’s chances of engaging in many morally sinful acts, and likely end with them rejecting the church outright.

Tell me- how will I be able to look at the face of almighty God at my judgement and tell Him I allowed my children to be led into Hell b/c I wanted to feel good about myself?

I look at the times he pulls out a condom as a sacrafice. I remember (later) how Jesus himself was betrayed by a kiss. Did Jesus sin b/c he stood there and LET Judas identify him? Should Jesus have run away, to avoid Judas from sinning?

If it was just me, I would allow him to divorce me, but I can’t just look out for myself.

**A mortal sin takes place ONLY when 3 conditions are met

1- complete knowledge of the sinfulness of an action.
2- it must be an objectively immoral act
3- IT MUST BE DONE WITH TOTAL CONSENT OF THE WILL.

I do not consent to this with my will. I consent to this with my body, while my soul cries out for mercy.**
 
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Breton:
One more observation/questions.

Fr. Serpa said that the she must attempt to educate her contracepting spouse on the sinfulness of his actions. Would her withholding sex from him be sinful if she saw this as the only way to lead her husband from sin?
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If witholding sex from him was an act of love rather than punishment, than probably not. Again this is a matter of intent and up to the individual to discern before God. It would be the intent that is sinful, NOT the marital act. But again, it is still necessary to use NFP and abstain during fertile times. This should take care of the problem, because at some point he is going to realize that his putting on a condom is futile, (there is no possibility of conception to prevent) and cease using them. Unless he likes them for another reason than preventing pregnancy (which I can’t think of one.)
 
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Siena:
Spotty- I mayself am in this terrible position. It is hard, and degrading. If I were to forbid my husband sex, we would (he has told me this) end in divorce.

( I did do this for some time before I understood the church’s teaching on my position more fully)

(He is a good man, he truly dosn’t understand how I can now think like this- he thinks he is doing me a “favor” b/c I have been “brainwashed” to believe this. If he REALLY understood, and knew how I felt when he uses a condom, I doubt he could do it.)

Unfortunetly, I am one of many who married someone while far from God. At the time of our Catholic marriage, I truly believed that using contraception to space births was “ok”. I have since learned the truth. I also have 4 children, ages 9. 7. 4, and 1.

If I would allow my marriage to end in a divorce, think of the likely consequences: my DH would most certianly find another woman, and live in adultry. He would also teach my children that “the CC broke up our marraige.” He would also have visitation every other weekend. What would stop him from letting our children date when they turn 12? Or drink in his house and party with friends at 16? As long as it’s daddy’s weekend…

Divorce will not solve the problem of him not understanding the mind of the church, it will only drive him farther from the truth.

Divorce will very likely increase our 4 children’s chances of engaging in many morally sinful acts, and likely end with them rejecting the church outright.

Tell me- how will I be able to look at the face of almighty God at my judgement and tell Him I allowed my children to be led into Hell b/c I wanted to feel good about myself?

I look at the times he pulls out a condom as a sacrafice. I remember (later) how Jesus himself was betrayed by a kiss. Did Jesus sin b/c he stood there and LET Judas identify him? Should Jesus have run away, to avoid Judas from sinning?

If it was just me, I would allow him to divorce me, but I can’t just look out for myself.

A mortal sin takes place ONLY when 3 conditions are met

1- complete knowledge of the sinfulness of an action.
2- it must be an objectively immoral act
3- IT MUST BE DONE WITH TOTAL CONSENT OF THE WILL.

I do not consent to this with my will. I consent to this with my body, while my soul cries out for mercy.
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Thank you Sienna, for sharing your personal experiences in this heartfelt post. I think it is important for those to understand that this scenario is all too common. There are many FAITHFUL Catholics in this very painful situation.

This is why, (scotty) one needs to be VERY careful to make blanket statements and accusations of sin. The actions you prescribe (ALWAYS witholding sex) can serve to excaberate an already existing problem, and making them VERY VERY worse. While you sit on your keyboard claiming to be more Catholic than the Church, some people are LIVING the scenario you describe, and will have to live with the consequences.

Please read 1Corinthians chapters 8, 9, and 10.

You will see how Saint Paul attempts to explain how particular things may or may not be sinful in a particular situation, and DEPENDING on the situation and knowledge there can be sin or no sin. How something can be sinful for one person, and not sinful for another. This is exactly what your topic is about. Please read it!!

You have said that you are a faithful Catholic, study MORE what the Church has to say about these issues, and until then it is best to humbly submit, while seeking to understand. Even if you don’t, it is definately unwise (and prideful) to expect others to disregard the advice of Priests, and Marriage and Sex expert theologins to listen to YOU. What, by the way, are your credentials?

1Corinthians 8:2
If anyone supposes he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know.
 
Ana said:
“For why should my freedom be determined by someone else’s conscience? If I partake thankfully, why am I reviled over that which I give thanks.” ROMANS 10: 29,30

Where the Church hasn’t spoken we are bound by our OWN consciences. Which as I said before are as unique as a fingerprint. And the sinfullness would depend on the intent, as it has not been stated as objectively wrong. Your conscience serves as a guide to help you on your journey. If you are not able to participate in oral sex without sin, than it makes all the sense in the world why your conscience would reject it. It is doing it’s job!!

But you cannot assume that what is sinful for you is sinful for all. Please read Saint Paul’s words in ROMANS ch.8, 9, and 10. (esp.10). The Church has long recognized the wisdom of Paul’s method in theological reflection of a moral dilemma. Although the problem is dated, the guidelines for moral decisions that he offers are of lasting value. I think things this will help you.
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I am quoting my own post because I made a boo-boo. I meant to say 1Corinthians instead of Romans, and the Scripture quote was 1Corinthians as well. Sorry bout the mix up.:o
 
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spotty:
the women wouldnt be withholding sex because i dont know the husband hasnt taken out the trash. shed be withholding sex because it causes her husband to sin. she is withholding sex because it is the sex thats the problem.
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It is NOT THE SEX!! It is the husband’s use of contraception. The only way she would be cooperating in this act, is if she engaged in sex during her fertile period!! Using NFP effectively DEFEATS her husband’s purpose of the condom. She will have managed to nullify it’s EFFECTS. Even if she cannot change his HIS intent, she has definitely made clear HERS, which indicated by her use of NFP is NOT a contraceptive mentality!!

She is sending a strong message of love and honesty to her husband, by this method. As opposed to punishing him by witholding her body, and denying the graces that can still come from God throught the UNITIVE aspect of sex. I don’t see how putting MORE distance and animosity between the spouses is going to help their marriage become more holy.
 
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Ana:
It is NOT THE SEX!! It is the husband’s use of contraception. The only way she would be cooperating in this act, is if she engaged in sex during her fertile period!! Using NFP effectively DEFEATS her husband’s purpose of the condom. She will have managed to nullify it’s EFFECTS. Even if she cannot change his HIS intent, she has definittely made clear hers, which is NOT a contraceptive mentality!!
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While a little bit facetious (sp?), she can also pray the damn condom breaks everytime.

But seriously, as I reflect on this issue, I’ll wager that the following scenario is more prevalent: A non-Catholic wife uses the Pill against the approval of her Catholic husband. And, as Ana and Sienna described, there are people living this very real life problem. And, we need to keep in mind certain very real facts: Sin is relative (murder is worse than telling a white lie) with regard to its gravity as is the appropriate response to sin (turning in a murderer is more critical than squealing on a liar). In the case of either the contracepting husband or wife, it is obvious that their understanding (and thus culpability) of their sin limited by their lack of knowledge and understanding (assuming this is really the case and not a reckless impunity to sin and disregard for its effect but none of us can really judge anothers heart). For this reason I suspect is why the Church doesn’t teach that a spouse who performs the marital act with a contracepting spouse isn’t cooperating/condonign the sin and that withholding themself from the marital embrace may be the greater wrong.
 
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Orionthehunter:
While a little bit facetious (sp?), she can also pray the damn condom breaks everytime.

But seriously, as I reflect on this issue, I’ll wager that the following scenario is more prevalent: A non-Catholic wife uses the Pill against the approval of her Catholic husband. And, as Ana and Sienna described, there are people living this very real life problem. And, we need to keep in mind certain very real facts: Sin is relative (murder is worse than telling a white lie) with regard to its gravity as is the appropriate response to sin (turning in a murderer is more critical than squealing on a liar). In the case of either the contracepting husband or wife, it is obvious that their understanding (and thus culpability) of their sin limited by their lack of knowledge and understanding (assuming this is really the case and not a reckless impunity to sin and disregard for its effect but none of us can really judge anothers heart). For this reason I suspect is why the Church doesn’t teach that a spouse who performs the marital act with a contracepting spouse isn’t cooperating/condonign the sin and that withholding themself from the marital embrace may be the greater wrong.
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Very nice post ~~ very well put!! Thank you for bringing up that it is also often the non Catholic wife using contraception, and is not isolated to the scenarios described in this thread.
 
We all seek and find understanding differently. I have no moral high ground to stand on nor do I have any credentials to wave about. What I do have is a conscience that I am honestly attempting to conform to the will of God.

When I entered this discussion, I saw some on this thread honestly discussing a scenario from one end of the spectrum; now Siena has brought us to the other end. Contraception is a grave sin but it pales in comparison to what I can only perceive as rape - when a husband coerces his wife into a disordered sexual embrace by threatening divorce or other such violence. Siena is in her current situation because of many choices made over many years – not just by Siena – but also by her spouse, her parents, our Church, and society in general. Like many sins, the evil sewn by contraception started out seemingly small and inconsequential. But it has grown over time into an evil more complex than we could have ever imagined.

This thread reminds me that contraception is, in and of itself, intrinsically evil – a position held (still) and taught (still) by the Catholic Church from the beginning – and how such an evil can lead us down very darks roads. I give thanks to God for His Church and for those willing to share their experiences, questions and concerns on this thread. I pray that we will all find the strength in God to lead our children to Him.
 
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Breton:
We all seek and find understanding differently. I have no moral high ground to stand on nor do I have any credentials to wave about. What I do have is a conscience that I am honestly attempting to conform to the will of God.

When I entered this discussion, I saw some on this thread honestly discussing a scenario from one end of the spectrum; now Siena has brought us to the other end. Contraception is a grave sin but it pales in comparison to what I can only perceive as rape - when a husband coerces his wife into a disordered sexual embrace by threatening divorce or other such violence. Siena is in her current situation because of many choices made over many years – not just by Siena – but also by her spouse, her parents, our Church, and society in general. Like many sins, the evil sewn by contraception started out seemingly small and inconsequential. But it has grown over time into an evil more complex than we could have ever imagined.

This thread reminds me that contraception is, in and of itself, intrinsically evil – a position held (still) and taught (still) by the Catholic Church from the beginning – and how such an evil can lead us down very darks roads. I give thanks to God for His Church and for those willing to share their experiences, questions and concerns on this thread. I pray that we will all find the strength in God to lead our children to Him.
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:amen:
 
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Breton:
Contraception is a grave sin but it pales in comparison to what I can only perceive as rape - when a husband coerces his wife into a disordered sexual embrace by threatening divorce or other such violence. Siena is in her current situation because of many choices made over many years – not just by Siena – but also by her spouse, her parents, our Church, and society in general. Like many sins, the evil sewn by contraception started out seemingly small and inconsequential. But it has grown over time into an evil more complex than we could have ever imagined.
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Brenton-
The use here of the word “rape” is very strong. Coersion- yes.

I would not consent to a physically forceful “embrace”. I pray that good may come of our embrace, even though it is not done with God’s plan. My DH HONESTLY DOES NOT UNDERSTAND! He thinks the church does not “belong in our bedroom”. The physical aspect is “normal”, our bodies react iin the “normal” way. (With the exception of the barrier, of course),

It is the emotional aspect that is not. I “feel” used. I “feel” that I cannot share my heart with him. If I bring this up- he gets defensive. So I can’t, and he then “thinks” that this is ok.

You final thoughts are right on, I am reaping what I have sown.
 
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Siena:
Spotty- I mayself am in this terrible position. It is hard, and degrading. If I were to forbid my husband sex, we would (he has told me this) end in divorce.

( I did do this for some time before I understood the church’s teaching on my position more fully)

(He is a good man, he truly dosn’t understand how I can now think like this- he thinks he is doing me a “favor” b/c I have been “brainwashed” to believe this. If he REALLY understood, and knew how I felt when he uses a condom, I doubt he could do it.)

Unfortunetly, I am one of many who married someone while far from God. At the time of our Catholic marriage, I truly believed that using contraception to space births was “ok”. I have since learned the truth. I also have 4 children, ages 9. 7. 4, and 1.

If I would allow my marriage to end in a divorce, think of the likely consequences: my DH would most certianly find another woman, and live in adultry. He would also teach my children that “the CC broke up our marraige.” He would also have visitation every other weekend. What would stop him from letting our children date when they turn 12? Or drink in his house and party with friends at 16? As long as it’s daddy’s weekend…

Divorce will not solve the problem of him not understanding the mind of the church, it will only drive him farther from the truth.

Divorce will very likely increase our 4 children’s chances of engaging in many morally sinful acts, and likely end with them rejecting the church outright.

Tell me- how will I be able to look at the face of almighty God at my judgement and tell Him I allowed my children to be led into Hell b/c I wanted to feel good about myself?

I look at the times he pulls out a condom as a sacrafice. I remember (later) how Jesus himself was betrayed by a kiss. Did Jesus sin b/c he stood there and LET Judas identify him? Should Jesus have run away, to avoid Judas from sinning?

If it was just me, I would allow him to divorce me, but I can’t just look out for myself.

**A mortal sin takes place ONLY when 3 conditions are met

1- complete knowledge of the sinfulness of an action.
2- it must be an objectively immoral act
3- IT MUST BE DONE WITH TOTAL CONSENT OF THE WILL.

I do not consent to this with my will. I consent to this with my body, while my soul cries out for mercy.**
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Ouch, that really slammed home. My parents were basically in the same position (well, sorta still are, but much older now, so sex isnt really an issue, i dont think, i dont know, i guess!).
 
Siena,

I apologize for my choice of words. We certainly all reap what we sow - as well as what others have sown for us. But with God’s help, we can make our way to Him and bring our families with us. Thank you again for sharing your story; I will carry it with me and pray for you and your family.

Peace be with you.
 
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Siena:
Spotty- I mayself am in this terrible position. It is hard, and degrading. If I were to forbid my husband sex, we would (he has told me this) end in divorce.
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Siena I’m so sorry that you have this cross to bare. I can only imagine how painful it must be to have what should a beautiful moment of intimacy between husband and wife to be broken by the barrier your husband has chosen to put between the two of you. I will pray your husband and for you as well.

Would your husband be open to a Marriage Encounter weekend?
 
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