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Ana
Guest
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Ana
Guest
Spotty,
After things settle down from your move, will you please consider studying this topic a little more? Even an expert acknowledges there is more to learn and seeks more knowledge.
The book recommended by another poster numerous times is a wonderful place to start. “The Good News about Sex and Marriage” is a very informative and easy to read book. The author Christopher West, is degreed in marriage theology at the Pope John Paul ll Theological Seminary. He has studied in depth and teaches classes on Pope John Paul ll’s encyclical Theology of the Body.
More knowledge will help you to grasp some of the more abstract concepts of the marital relationship (included but not limited to the marital embrace.)
God bless.
After things settle down from your move, will you please consider studying this topic a little more? Even an expert acknowledges there is more to learn and seeks more knowledge.
The book recommended by another poster numerous times is a wonderful place to start. “The Good News about Sex and Marriage” is a very informative and easy to read book. The author Christopher West, is degreed in marriage theology at the Pope John Paul ll Theological Seminary. He has studied in depth and teaches classes on Pope John Paul ll’s encyclical Theology of the Body.
More knowledge will help you to grasp some of the more abstract concepts of the marital relationship (included but not limited to the marital embrace.)
God bless.
M
maryalene
Guest
I hope this doesn’t come across the wrong way, but perhaps you don’t have the appropriate experience to see how non-vaginal contact can in fact be an appropriate and positive part of the marital embrace.
S
spotty
Guest
you know like i was saying before no one should be indifferent. and as far as priesst and bishops talking about this from my understanding which is what ive been talking this is what theyve taught me. i have never heard any priest say that its ok if the other is using a contraceptive but not you. never and it makes no sense as ive been explaining.
so in regards to the husband not loving his wife. i didnt say he didnt love her. i said he doesnt truly love her like he should. as God wants us to. and we all fall short of this. but it takes a rejection of sin to step up and love like were supposed to. like God wants us to.
and ana i am attacking the sin not any individual. my thoughts on this didnt happen over night its taken years and it wasnt some private revelation. everyone can see sin.
also i did and do encourage pray and reception of the sacraments in fact im positive up top somewhere yesterday i said something like “we need healing and the sacraments heal!! and we truly become a new person in Christ. its all true”
no one has to believe me im just a regular person. but this is how i see the catholicism as it was taught to me by the authority of the church.
and i havent had a chance yet but i gonna find out exactly what pope john paul ii had to say in his theology of the body b/c what ive learned so far from it is what ive stated
so in regards to the husband not loving his wife. i didnt say he didnt love her. i said he doesnt truly love her like he should. as God wants us to. and we all fall short of this. but it takes a rejection of sin to step up and love like were supposed to. like God wants us to.
and ana i am attacking the sin not any individual. my thoughts on this didnt happen over night its taken years and it wasnt some private revelation. everyone can see sin.
also i did and do encourage pray and reception of the sacraments in fact im positive up top somewhere yesterday i said something like “we need healing and the sacraments heal!! and we truly become a new person in Christ. its all true”
no one has to believe me im just a regular person. but this is how i see the catholicism as it was taught to me by the authority of the church.
and i havent had a chance yet but i gonna find out exactly what pope john paul ii had to say in his theology of the body b/c what ive learned so far from it is what ive stated
S
spotty
Guest
and one more thing about oral and anal sex. to just say that homosexuals practice anal and therefore it should would be rejected is not a valid. the same could also be said that they also partake in oral sex but then they also kiss too. so you cant argue like that.
however, as i see it oral sex (i understand ends in intercourse) takes away from the design of God. how? lets say a woman is orally gratifying a man. that feeling of stimulation which the women is applying to the man is supposed to be a shared stimulation always. why? its a life giving stimulation which is supposed to be shared. its a union!
its not i like this way better God to build me up than what you gave the woman. its not a simultaneous sharing of the parts of ourselves which give life. its a take. and its a counterfeit of the true union which God designed that creates life.
granted it might feel sexually gratifying but then so does anal for some. and this next part is kinda dark so read with caution. alot seem opposed to anal stimulation by saying its unhealthy. but hey theyre alot of ways to do it such as orally that isnt gonna hurt the person. and im guessin people would have to say it could be a male or female right.
its wrong because its a counterfiet of the true stimulation of the life giving union which is supposed to occur solely in intercourse.
why? do the math. take a guy what happens if his penis is being stimulating in some way? hes gonna have an orgasm and now you got sperm. what is sperm for? to fertilize the egg. can it get to the egg if some other opening other the vagina? i dont think so
its like a puzzle the pieces fit to stimulate the other in a union which expresses their complete simultaneous giving of each other in the design of Gods plan. you take the unitive stimulation out the mix at any point and you dont have that union. but a counterfiet of it. youre not being gratified with and for your partners sake but for your own.
what if a man were just masterbating while his wife was just kissing him for a while before they actually had intercourse? do you see the the lack of union there. the mockery?
im not saying that everyone is guilty of mortal sin whose done any of this. b/c one must be conscience that it is a grave sin.
but i am saying that it deforms the conscience from what this true sacrament of love really is
however, as i see it oral sex (i understand ends in intercourse) takes away from the design of God. how? lets say a woman is orally gratifying a man. that feeling of stimulation which the women is applying to the man is supposed to be a shared stimulation always. why? its a life giving stimulation which is supposed to be shared. its a union!
its not i like this way better God to build me up than what you gave the woman. its not a simultaneous sharing of the parts of ourselves which give life. its a take. and its a counterfeit of the true union which God designed that creates life.
granted it might feel sexually gratifying but then so does anal for some. and this next part is kinda dark so read with caution. alot seem opposed to anal stimulation by saying its unhealthy. but hey theyre alot of ways to do it such as orally that isnt gonna hurt the person. and im guessin people would have to say it could be a male or female right.
its wrong because its a counterfiet of the true stimulation of the life giving union which is supposed to occur solely in intercourse.
why? do the math. take a guy what happens if his penis is being stimulating in some way? hes gonna have an orgasm and now you got sperm. what is sperm for? to fertilize the egg. can it get to the egg if some other opening other the vagina? i dont think so
its like a puzzle the pieces fit to stimulate the other in a union which expresses their complete simultaneous giving of each other in the design of Gods plan. you take the unitive stimulation out the mix at any point and you dont have that union. but a counterfiet of it. youre not being gratified with and for your partners sake but for your own.
what if a man were just masterbating while his wife was just kissing him for a while before they actually had intercourse? do you see the the lack of union there. the mockery?
im not saying that everyone is guilty of mortal sin whose done any of this. b/c one must be conscience that it is a grave sin.
but i am saying that it deforms the conscience from what this true sacrament of love really is
S
Siena
Guest
Spotty,
I know you have the fire of youth on your side- so I will not take your remarks personally.
This issue is one that the Lord laid on my heart while you were still approaching pubery.
It took many years of wrestling with it, and doing it the “wrong” way, to ultimately discover the truth taught by the church in this matter.
You are correct that there is evil involved, they are the lies of Satan. My dh, the father of my children is A GOOD MAN WHO HAS BEEN DECIEVED BY THIS CULTURE, ultimatly, by the devil.
It was, again, many years of daily weekday mass, eucharistic adoration, and priest council for me to be able to conform myself to the truth of this teaching. (The practice of it- well, that is still a struggle…)
I will tell you with all honesty- If the church required me to separate myself from my husband, I would do so. The church, in her wisdom, as proclaimed by her highest authorities, who I am in ultimate submission to on this earth, has stated that **for grave resons, I am permitted to engage in sex with my husband even if he chooses to violate God’s law. I am still permitted to recieve communion **(thank God- although it is hard not to give in to scrupilosity b/c of this) **and I am still in good standing in the church. **The Lord has given me many signs, graces and consolations in this, that I may continue to try and conform myself to his will.
This is a very private, and personal matter, not one that I would bring up on my own here. It is a hard cross to bear, but we can do all things in God who strenghtens us.
I suggest you read more on the churches official teaching. (EWTN’s website has all papal encyclicals, as well as many other docs. an excellent place to start. Their q&a section will provide answers as well. That is where I started my “official” research- looking for thological reasons to present to my dh. It didn’t work for him, but DID confirm me in this path.)
God bless you.
I know you have the fire of youth on your side- so I will not take your remarks personally.
This issue is one that the Lord laid on my heart while you were still approaching pubery.
It took many years of wrestling with it, and doing it the “wrong” way, to ultimately discover the truth taught by the church in this matter.
You are correct that there is evil involved, they are the lies of Satan. My dh, the father of my children is A GOOD MAN WHO HAS BEEN DECIEVED BY THIS CULTURE, ultimatly, by the devil.
It was, again, many years of daily weekday mass, eucharistic adoration, and priest council for me to be able to conform myself to the truth of this teaching. (The practice of it- well, that is still a struggle…)
I will tell you with all honesty- If the church required me to separate myself from my husband, I would do so. The church, in her wisdom, as proclaimed by her highest authorities, who I am in ultimate submission to on this earth, has stated that **for grave resons, I am permitted to engage in sex with my husband even if he chooses to violate God’s law. I am still permitted to recieve communion **(thank God- although it is hard not to give in to scrupilosity b/c of this) **and I am still in good standing in the church. **The Lord has given me many signs, graces and consolations in this, that I may continue to try and conform myself to his will.
This is a very private, and personal matter, not one that I would bring up on my own here. It is a hard cross to bear, but we can do all things in God who strenghtens us.
I suggest you read more on the churches official teaching. (EWTN’s website has all papal encyclicals, as well as many other docs. an excellent place to start. Their q&a section will provide answers as well. That is where I started my “official” research- looking for thological reasons to present to my dh. It didn’t work for him, but DID confirm me in this path.)
God bless you.
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Ana
Guest
Spotty and a few others have the burden of proof, as they are the ones making the claim. But since it is unlikely they will … allow me … (drum roll) …
…There is no such teaching … YOU ARE FOUND!!
S
spotty
Guest
but dont get me wrong i havent not read alot of the popes theology of the body and been to seminars. im not just throwing stuff out there. im reasoning arent i? and as far as i can tell its sound and fits. its what im arguing against that doesnt fit
M
maryalene
Guest
Well now that Fr. Serpa has answered the question, you have. http://forum.catholic.com/images/smilies/smile.gif
If you find any links or anything from JP II to the contrary, I’d be interested in reading them.
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Ana
Guest
The Theology of the Body is very dense theology. Christopher West doe a good job unpacking it so that it is readable and accessable to the lay person. Even this will take hours of study. But it is worth EVERY SECOND!! I encourage you to continue your studies.
S
spotty
Guest
thanks siena. i really do know its hard. i am so sorry for everything youve gone through. but thats why i talk about it now. because i really love everyone and dont people to abuse each other or be abused.
H
HappyCatholic01
Guest
That’s nice.
But other than an being eloquent prognostication on your part, mind telling us where this came from?
It doesn’t carry any more weight than anything non-official I could type.
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Ana
Guest
But you are saying if we DON’T believe you we are sinning. This is how you see it according to the knowledge you have and the grace you have been given. And it is okay to share this, but it is not okay to declare it as a definative statement binding under penalty of sin. What you have learned so far is only the tip of the iceburg , sweetie. You are in for an extremely pleasant, and surprising journey into the Truth.
But please please, maintain a teachable spirit, for your sake and His glory.
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Ana
Guest
Well, that’s wonderful that you are so compassionate for her, BUT that’s why you must insist on talking about it? C’mon … she just explained to you the years of prayer, Sacraments, and suffering she has put into this very issue. She has revealed a close relationship of prayer with our Lord which He has responded to with patience, loving guidance, and consolations over the years. Yet, you continue to imply she should reject ALL of that and embrace YOUR view.
Again, where is your experience in this area? Ordination? Marriage? Degree? Ministry? Anything? I am not downing you, just trying to help you see more realistically.
I know that you are 20 yrs. old and not a child. And I am not trying to be condescending, but you have wandered into deeper waters than life and God has prepared you for. You need to study more. Until then, you should discuss this issue humbly, seeking to be taught, rather than to teach.
Is it your intention to explore this issue more deeply, or to teach others?
S
spotty
Guest
well thanks maryalene for being smart about it. what i meant and what i said earlier in this same discussion was before i came on this site and heard him say that that was new to me. i thought that was understood.
but again like i said im not just throwing stuff in the air of course of sudied and prayed. but hey this is part of it.
but seriously i gotta go.
Immaculate heart of Mary pray for us now and at the hour of our death.
but again like i said im not just throwing stuff in the air of course of sudied and prayed. but hey this is part of it.
but seriously i gotta go.
Immaculate heart of Mary pray for us now and at the hour of our death.
A
Ana
Guest
I know the feeling. Way into the conversations here at CA, while real life beckons. I hope your move goes smoothly.
S
spotty
Guest
man ana you just keep pulling me back. haha. yes! its precisely b/c i care that i talk about it. we cannot repress wounds and pretend they dont exist. we have to have them healed.
ana im trying to be faithful to the church which ive said. its pope john paul ii who has influenced me so much. haha sorry holy father if im just completely wrong on what you taught. dont mean to drop your name like that
ana im trying to be faithful to the church which ive said. its pope john paul ii who has influenced me so much. haha sorry holy father if im just completely wrong on what you taught. dont mean to drop your name like that
S
Siena
Guest
Spotty-
Please, answer this question, and then go and research exactly what the church teaches about contraception by 1 spouse in marriage
“I remember (later) how Jesus himself was betrayed by a kiss. ***Did Jesus sin b/c he stood there and LET Judas identify him? Should Jesus have run away, to avoid Judas from sinning?”
***Again- God bless you.
Please, answer this question, and then go and research exactly what the church teaches about contraception by 1 spouse in marriage
“I remember (later) how Jesus himself was betrayed by a kiss. ***Did Jesus sin b/c he stood there and LET Judas identify him? Should Jesus have run away, to avoid Judas from sinning?”
***Again- God bless you.
S
Siena
Guest
-If you can make it back in the next day or 2- please check this thread- I cant for the life of me find the text I’m looking for- and I need to go. But I will find it!
Ok?
Ok?
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Ana
Guest
FINALLY, you have admitted fallibility!!:clapping: This is why you should be careful to precede your statements with, “It is my understanding … It seems to me … As I see it” … and so on .
Now go, you’re pulling me back too!!
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