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Eireann
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OK sorry, point taken.
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wabrams
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No problem.
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maryalene
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Sorry if it was taken the wrong way - just trying to lighten the mood - hence the smiley face. I’ll keep my humor to myself in the future.
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mumto5
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Spotty, I think with your reasoning even NFP would be wrong in a marriage. Surely only having sex during the infertile times could be seen to be an act of lust, not love?
And let me tell you something…my husband is not Catholic and does not believe there is anything wrong with contraception. He does agree about abortion being wrong and would never want us to consider anything like that, but he has no problem with contraception. He had a vasectomy and while the act is deemed morally wrong by the church, his doing so was not to do with sexual gratification and lust. It was actually an act of love on his part. Yes, abstinence could have been an option but try and see it from the point of view of someone who has never believed in the church teaching on contraception. I almost died having our last baby and so, he had a vasectomy as he loves me and values me as a person. He was no objectifying me in doing this. He loves me very much and likes to show this in a physical way. If he was objectifying me he could have just though, who cares and risked pregnancy for me anyway. Maybe it doesn’t make sense to an outsider but while this wouldn’t have been my choice at all, I know that he did it out of love and caring. That might not make sense to you now, but you don’t know my husband and his motivations like I do. His motives were good and out of love. I’m not trying to justify it, just explain that sometimes, there are reasons other than lust that people do these things.
And let me tell you something…my husband is not Catholic and does not believe there is anything wrong with contraception. He does agree about abortion being wrong and would never want us to consider anything like that, but he has no problem with contraception. He had a vasectomy and while the act is deemed morally wrong by the church, his doing so was not to do with sexual gratification and lust. It was actually an act of love on his part. Yes, abstinence could have been an option but try and see it from the point of view of someone who has never believed in the church teaching on contraception. I almost died having our last baby and so, he had a vasectomy as he loves me and values me as a person. He was no objectifying me in doing this. He loves me very much and likes to show this in a physical way. If he was objectifying me he could have just though, who cares and risked pregnancy for me anyway. Maybe it doesn’t make sense to an outsider but while this wouldn’t have been my choice at all, I know that he did it out of love and caring. That might not make sense to you now, but you don’t know my husband and his motivations like I do. His motives were good and out of love. I’m not trying to justify it, just explain that sometimes, there are reasons other than lust that people do these things.
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Consecrated
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My heart aches for you. Talk about redemptive suffering… thanks be to Christ that He unites our sufferings with His to bring healing and conversion to those we love most! May God bless you and your husband TONS AND TONS for your efforts to follow His will for your life and your marriage. He might just be converted in spite of himself!
You especially have my empathy for your stuggle with scrupulosity. I’ve had some experience with this as well (though in circumstances not quite this tough!) and I know how hard it is. The devil can definitely try to twist especially the holiest of intentions in an attempt to keep us away from the precious Blessed Sacrament. And I know from personal experience the anxiety that clouds one’s soul at those times. May Our Blessed Mother hide you in her pure Heart.
May I recommend a book to you (and to ALL!) that might help you with your peace in all this? “Rules for Discerning the Spirits” taken from the Spiritual Excercises of St. Ignatius of Loyola by Fr. Ludovis-Marie Barrielle. It’s published by Angelus Press. The back says:
It’s only about 60 pages, but a really GREAT 60 pages.
angeluspress.org/retreat_prayer.htm
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Ana
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Siena, I know this was directed towards spotty, but I just wanted to let you know that I intend on meditating on this. I actually started pondering it last night as I was driving my mom to the airport, but with traffic, three kids in the back … enough said. But in the short time I tried, it was immediately recognizable the benefit in doing so. I look forward to reflecting on this in light of the original topic, as well as hopefully getting the opportunity to hear your insights on this.
God bless.
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Siena
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Ana-
I just wanted to thank you for standing in there with me.
I just wanted to thank you for standing in there with me.
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spotty
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ana in response to your question about Jesus sinning. no he didnt sin. when an evil happens to any of us, youre right its not true to say that God participated in and evil act b/c he could have stopped it but didnt. and the problem of evil encompasses every evil but lets stick with the example of Jesus and judas. Jesus in your example being the spouse against contraception and judas being the spouse in favor.
it makes it confusing yeah. why? for the same reason that the problem of evil argument is confusing and seems to blurr things.
the short answer is that its not the same thing. your analogy would im sure also imply to someone who knows they will be shot if they say they believe in God. so is that person guilty of suicide. but then maybe that person has a child at home who needs him so instead he rationalizes that it would be better to deny God. but these people who would choose death or suffering are saints. to be a saint means that you did Gods will. he have to trust in God and accept Him always. we have to trust when we cant see how accepting Him will be beneficial.
there is no sexual union going on if contraception is involved. none. what does the faithful spouse think they are doing. ive explained but you havent refuted it. please do with reasons.you just keep saying youre wrong, youre wrong. youre too young, who makes you right? (actually you did give the Jesus v. judas example and that was cool. and thats what i want). and another theing priests can be an error. the church isnt,but as far as ive learned this is the teaching. how can it not be? explain please. ive explained why it cant and doesnt fit.
it makes it confusing yeah. why? for the same reason that the problem of evil argument is confusing and seems to blurr things.
the short answer is that its not the same thing. your analogy would im sure also imply to someone who knows they will be shot if they say they believe in God. so is that person guilty of suicide. but then maybe that person has a child at home who needs him so instead he rationalizes that it would be better to deny God. but these people who would choose death or suffering are saints. to be a saint means that you did Gods will. he have to trust in God and accept Him always. we have to trust when we cant see how accepting Him will be beneficial.
there is no sexual union going on if contraception is involved. none. what does the faithful spouse think they are doing. ive explained but you havent refuted it. please do with reasons.you just keep saying youre wrong, youre wrong. youre too young, who makes you right? (actually you did give the Jesus v. judas example and that was cool. and thats what i want). and another theing priests can be an error. the church isnt,but as far as ive learned this is the teaching. how can it not be? explain please. ive explained why it cant and doesnt fit.
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Ana
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That was Sienna, I’ll let her respond.
The Church has defined the sexual union consisting of BOTH the procreative and unitive aspects. Contraception blocks the procreative, but it does not negate the fruits that can come from celebrating the unitive aspects of sex. We are speaking within marriage. I am not saying that perhaps in some situations it may be the right thing to do. I am arguing that it may sometimes be the right thing to do to continue relations with the contracepting spouse, simply because there are MANY factors involved including intent and motivation. It is not always the LOVING thing to withold sex.
You claim that it is Church teaching that the spouse is also sinning if they engage in marital relations with the contracepting spouse. It is up to you to provide the resources for this, as you are the one making this claim. Reasons HAVE been provided … (PLEASE REREAD THE POSTS), and you consistantly refuse to acknowledge or address them. I have even been tempted to quote my own posts to you because I have the suspicion you have not read them, and it does get tiring repeating oneself.
Someone please help!!
Spotty, Please answer … Where does the Church teach that the non contraceptive spouse is sinning if they engage in relations with the contracepting spouse?
I am not saying you are too young to have an OPINION. Simply that opinions must be weighed by whom is saying them. There are many contrary opinions to yours, that are made by people with more ecclesastical authority, more education, more experience … etc. Please explain why you believe your opinion carries more weight than their’s?
Also an opinion is only opinion. You claim to have Church teaching behind you, but you fail to provide any documentation … only that you have BEGUN to read Pope John Paul ll Theology of the Body. Does this make you qualified to teach (and expect people to embrace your interpretation)?
Also, for some spouses to continue to engae in the marital embrace with a contracepting spouse IS embracing the path of suffering and dying to oneself, wheras to withhold would be what they want to do anyway, and would be making the selfish choice.
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Ana
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Also it is clear from Church teaching and Scripture that it is a sin to withold your body from your spouse. Why do you think adding sin upon sin is helpful to the situation?
If one person sins, does that give the other the right to sin in response?
If one person sins, does that give the other the right to sin in response?
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Ana
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Just to be sure you understand what I am getting at concerning opinions.
If I break my leg, and there is a cab driver and a doctor next to me advising me … whose OPINION do you think carries more weight?
The cab driver has a different opinion than the doctor, and if he expects me to listen to him, he should be able to tell me WHY I SHOULD. If he doesn’t, would it be surprising that I listen to the doctor?
So until you give me reasons as to why your claim should carry more weight than those who have (again) more experience, knowledge, expertise and so on … forgive me if I don’t immediately bow to your wisdom.
If I break my leg, and there is a cab driver and a doctor next to me advising me … whose OPINION do you think carries more weight?
The cab driver has a different opinion than the doctor, and if he expects me to listen to him, he should be able to tell me WHY I SHOULD. If he doesn’t, would it be surprising that I listen to the doctor?
So until you give me reasons as to why your claim should carry more weight than those who have (again) more experience, knowledge, expertise and so on … forgive me if I don’t immediately bow to your wisdom.
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spotty
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but so for proof from the catechism, if may logic isnt making sense.
why oral and anal sex even while ending in intercourse is wrong: 2370
“Every action which whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes whether as an ends or a means, to render procreation impossible, is intrinsically evil.” (pope paul vi)
right there thats it. sorry i didnt have an exact quote to give yesterday but i was just explaining why which i think more people need to hear anyway.
now for why contraception is always wrong. like a said before there is no union
sins against chastity (2351)
lust is a disordered desire or an ordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. sexual pleasure is morally disordered in sought for itself or isolated from its procreative or unitive proposes.
so if a contraception is involved such as a condom, there is no union. the contraceptive is a straight barrier to it.
why oral and anal sex even while ending in intercourse is wrong: 2370
“Every action which whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes whether as an ends or a means, to render procreation impossible, is intrinsically evil.” (pope paul vi)
right there thats it. sorry i didnt have an exact quote to give yesterday but i was just explaining why which i think more people need to hear anyway.
now for why contraception is always wrong. like a said before there is no union
sins against chastity (2351)
lust is a disordered desire or an ordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. sexual pleasure is morally disordered in sought for itself or isolated from its procreative or unitive proposes.
so if a contraception is involved such as a condom, there is no union. the contraceptive is a straight barrier to it.
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Orionthehunter
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Spotty, please read this thread over. You are taking the Catechism out of context (a Sola Scriptura Protestant tactic) to “prove” your point. You have trained Priests and others who site approved Catholic sources that the sin is attributed to the contracepting spouse. Furthermore, becuase of their lack of understanding and grasping the consequences, the gravity of the sin is mitigated. I strongly urge you to read West’s book that presents JPII’s Theology of the Body in a language that is readable and understandable by the laity. It is recommended by many dioceses (including mine) for marriage sponsor couples and newlyweds.
Whenever I have a position like you do that doesn’t seem to make sense to my understanding of what is “right”, I take it to prayer, do more research, and pray some more until I understand. As St. Jerome said about Scripture, “When I don’t understand Scripture, I don’t attribute it to the imperfection of Scripture but to my imperfection to understand.” He then goes back to Scripture to study it until he understood. I urge you to do the same with regard to this teaching. It will enlighten you as only the Holy Spirit can.
Whenever I have a position like you do that doesn’t seem to make sense to my understanding of what is “right”, I take it to prayer, do more research, and pray some more until I understand. As St. Jerome said about Scripture, “When I don’t understand Scripture, I don’t attribute it to the imperfection of Scripture but to my imperfection to understand.” He then goes back to Scripture to study it until he understood. I urge you to do the same with regard to this teaching. It will enlighten you as only the Holy Spirit can.
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TarAshly
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Oral sex is an acceptable expression of love and self giving as long as it is ended in intercourse. theres nothing perverse about it. I suggest you read Christopher Wests book “The Good News About Sex and Marriage” we read it after we were married and the deacon from our pre cana classes suggested it. It is absolutley mystifying all the misconceptions a person can have about sex and sexuality that truly is a gift from God.
spotty:
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spotty
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ana like i said earlier it is not a with holding of sex as a punishment but abstaining from an act of sex in which there is no union hence making it only lustful and sinful
do you see the difference?
do you see the difference?
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spotty
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what? what do you think pope paul vi is saying? read again about when he says that if any act that whether accomplished or not that would render procreation impossible is intrinsically evil.
if christopher west said otherwise im sorry hes wrong
if christopher west said otherwise im sorry hes wrong
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TarAshly
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Personal question here. Feel free not to answer… are you married?
I only ask because this sort of thing is pretty much a personal decision between a man and his wife. The Church has no official stand on it, though there are guidelines. Other than that it doesnt seem to me to be anyones business what a man and his wife do in the privacy of their own homes.
spotty:
I only ask because this sort of thing is pretty much a personal decision between a man and his wife. The Church has no official stand on it, though there are guidelines. Other than that it doesnt seem to me to be anyones business what a man and his wife do in the privacy of their own homes.
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Orionthehunter
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If you had a spouse and they wanted to share the marital embrace, they would not see it in any way but punishment. Since they can’t understand the non-contracepting spouses explanation about contraception, how do you think they’d understand that “withholding” is a loving act and not punishment.
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spotty
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these are not my words but straight from the magesterium
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TarAshly
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Ok what about couples who use NFP but still make love even when the wife is not ovulating? is that sinful? surely not. Sex is also intended to bring a man and his wife together. and some couples choose to use oral sex as a part of that union. there is absolutely nothing wrong with it (in my opinion and that of other leaders who have spoke on it) as long as it ends in vaginal intercourse.
spotty:
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