Father Corapi ... on Baptism & Protestants

[MarcoPolo]

Why would anyone need to confess their sins to a priest. In Mk 15:38 it says the veil of the temple was torn in two signifying that the way into God’s presence was open by the death of his son. You no longer had to go to the priest for your sins. I Tim 2:5 says “There is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus”. Throughout the bible it is faith and faith alone that is commanded as a condition for receiving God’s gift of Salvation. John 3:16, Acts 16:30-31 and John 3:36. A person does not have to go to a priest to have any hope of salvation.
God Bless

This is off topic, but is the way Christ ordained it. The veil torn signified the end of the Old Covenant authorities, which is fulfilled in the New. A ministerial priesthood remains, and is why NT Scripture talks about presbyters and bishops. All of this flows from Christ. It is not a priest instead of Christ, but it is Christ through the priest.

John 20:22-23 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

Scripture tells us:
The Pharisees asked who but God can forgive sins. They were correct, only God could. And Jesus said all authority on earth had been given to Him. And He also told His apostles that as the Father sent Him, so He sent them. Which means Christ’s power to forgive sins is done so through His ministers. It IS Christ operating through His Church.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

And I thought that everything on ETWN was law. Seriously that is the most cited to proof of all kinds of things. To think that Protestants might not all go to hell! Don’t breathe a word of this over at the non-Catholic faith forum. Some there have delighted in calling all Non_Catholics heretics and they will be disturbed. Of course the RCC doesn’t teach what they profess and is in line it seems with the good Father from ETWN.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Would Full Contrition effect a Full absolution without the Rite of Penance?

It’s the best a Protestant could do. This is why I say it is EXTREMELY risky to one’s salvation to be a Protestant. They are subject to so many judgmental hurdles. They first have to overcome the risk of being culpable for insubordination to The Catholic Church by escaping through a divine finding of invincible ignorance. But with so much information available in the modern world this must be a hard case to make except for the mentally handicapped. Secondly a Protestant can never commit a mortal sin after baptism. In this temptation rich western society its a daily war. So if they do fall and I suspect they are no different than Catholics and most will fall now and then they have no assurances of forgivness without sacramental confession.

So a true Protestant believer in Christ (if this is truly possible being outside of His Church and His commandment to obey His appointed leaders and receive Eucharist etc.) who does commit mortal sin and later becomes remorseful will take a lot of time soul searching, truly trying to repent and being penitent through real tears and prayers (none of this “oops -sorry God I messed up but I know you forgive me” stuff is going to work). Such a person God might grant a special exception through Mercy. I truly hope so. But from a pure justice perspective these souls can not be in conflict with Christ and His Church at the same time - that’s not compatible with salvation. So God has to find a way to “make it right” - we can only trust in God to find a way if at all possible. But God will not have a double standard and let some go to hell for this and other go to heaven. That would not be just. But really, how many are really repenting with real tears, sorrow, penance and attempts at restitution? Frankly, I ask this to Catholics too - even with our sacrament of penance - how many are doing thier part and really repenting?

But I also believe that God always gives each soul that is sincerely desiring to repent and be transformed in Christ the opportunity (probably multiple times) to know the truth and to be called into the Catholic Church. No one enters heaven unless they are Catholic one way or another (by being formally received into the Catholic Church or God making it so at some point in time before final judgement).

James

 

[Seeking12]

wow but how many people don’t have a unconfessed mortal???

The protestants I know (and I did likewise back then) say all sin is sin, there is no sin, you know once saved always saved I can do what I want because “as a protestant I have freedom from sin because of Christ” stuff.

I believe protestants needs to return to the Church, and confess sins to a Priest to have hope of salvation.

**We have a higher standard in regards to sin; we don’t categorize them because one sin is no different when it comes to the penalty for sin or how God views sin. Since there is no purgatory; we don’t worry or guilt ourselves our entire lives.

We confess directly to God because God alone forgives. From a Biblical perspective, a true believer knows that their sins were nailed to the cross; past, present and future. The heart of repentance is not because we need more sin forgiven; it is because we have reverence for His holiness and know we have offended our Holy Father and ask He forgive us; knowing we are already forgiven.

If you believe you can loose salvation, then you must also believe their is something you can do to merit God’s grace; which is another gospel and one that will condemn that soul without the intervening Savior.**

 

[Seeking12]

It’s the best a Protestant could do. This is why I say it is EXTREMELY risky to one’s salvation to be a Protestant. They are subject to so many judgmental hurdles. They first have to overcome the risk of being culpable for insubordination to The Catholic Church by escaping through a divine finding of invincible ignorance. But with so much information available in the modern world this must be a hard case to make except for the mentally handicapped. Secondly a Protestant can never commit a mortal sin after baptism. In this temptation rich western society its a daily war. So if they do fall and I suspect they are no different than Catholics and most will fall now and then they have no assurances of forgivness without sacramental confession.

So a true Protestant believer in Christ (if this is truly possible being outside of His Church and His commandment to obey His appointed leaders and receive Eucharist etc.) who does commit mortal sin and later becomes remorseful will take a lot of time soul searching, truly trying to repent and being penitent through real tears and prayers (none of this “oops -sorry God I messed up but I know you forgive me” stuff is going to work). Such a person God might grant a special exception through Mercy. I truly hope so. But from a pure justice perspective these souls can not be in conflict with Christ and His Church at the same time - that’s not compatible with salvation. So God has to find a way to “make it right” - we can only trust in God to find a way if at all possible. But God will not have a double standard and let some go to hell for this and other go to heaven. That would not be just. But really, how many are really repenting with real tears, sorrow, penance and attempts at restitution? Frankly, I ask this to Catholics too - even with our sacrament of penance - how many are doing thier part and really repenting?

But I also believe that God always gives each soul that is sincerely desiring to repent and be transformed in Christ the opportunity (probably multiple times) to know the truth and to be called into the Catholic Church. No one enters heaven unless they are Catholic one way or another (by being formally received into the Catholic Church or God making it so at some point in time before final judgement).

James

James I doubt you have a clue what it means to be saved and how God works that salvation. Perhaps you could tell all these good people; you have decided that a Protestant doesn’t know; so lets hear it from your own wisdom friend.

 

[garysibio]

wow but how many people don’t have a unconfessed mortal???

The protestants I know (and I did likewise back then) say all sin is sin, there is no sin, you know once saved always saved I can do what I want because “as a protestant I have freedom from sin because of Christ” stuff.

I believe protestants needs to return to the Church, and confess sins to a Priest to have hope of salvation.

It sounds like your Protestant friends are mainline Protestants. Evangelical and Fundamentalist Protestants have a very strong sense of sin and the need to confess it. Of course they do not believe they have to confess to a priest but they do confess their sins to God.

Many Protestants also believe in something they call eternal security which means that they believe that once they are saved they are always saved but all tis means is that any sin they commit does not alter their salvation. This is, of course, a false teaching.

Gary

 

[garysibio]

Well, lots of Catholics share your opinion. But, Father C. doesn’t teach this idea. I was amazed @ his teaching on topic, and how liberal he was on Protestants getting to heaven w/o becoming Catholic.

For him, salvation is all about Trinitarian Baptism and having rightly oriented intentions.

The Cathoic Church rejects the belief that only Catholics can be saved. It does teach that, if a person is saved, it is through the grace of Jesus Christ. God is sovereign and can give His grace however He wishes. Of course the Catholic Church is the surest path to God’s grace.

Gary

 

[garysibio]

I don’t understand his wording here. What does he mean make purgatory at the minimum? Does that mean the barley escape hell and are given a steep purgatory sentence till the end of time?

James

I’m not Fr. Corapi but I have heard a lot of his programs. I would assume that what he means is that it is possible for a non-Catholic Christian to go to Heaven. However, just because they don’t believe in Purgatory, doesn’t mean they won’t have to go through it.

Gary

 

[garysibio]

You do have to be Catholic to be saved. Everyone in Heaven is Catholic. Those outside the Church with baptism of desire (explicit or implicit) are deemed to be Catholic if they died.

Since we are not completely saved until we are in Heaven I would agree with you that all of the saved are Catholic but that is not the same as saying that you have to be Catholic in order to be saved.

I’m being picky about the difference because (1) it’s not what the Church teaches and (2) a lot of Evangelicals consider us to be a cult because they mistakenly believe that we say only Catholics can be saved. Note that I am not saying that this is the only reason they may believe we are a cult but it is one reason. A statement such as yours could easily be misinterpreted by one of them.

Gary

 

[garysibio]

Would Full Contrition effect a Full absolution without the Rite of Penance?

I think that, if invincible ignorance is a factor, it would. If I am wrong on this, please let me know.

Gary

 

[graceandglory]

The protestants I know (and I did likewise back then) say all sin is sin, there is no sin, you know once saved always saved .

this is so true. my kids’ dad, a pentecostal, believed his sin was forgiven when he was 4 and got saved and that he never sinned after that. Doesn’t make sense to me.

 

[garysibio]

Why would anyone need to confess their sins to a priest. In Mk 15:38 it says the veil of the temple was torn in two signifying that the way into God’s presence was open by the death of his son. You no longer had to go to the priest for your sins. I Tim 2:5 says “There is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus”. Throughout the bible it is faith and faith alone that is commanded as a condition for receiving God’s gift of Salvation. John 3:16, Acts 16:30-31 and John 3:36. A person does not have to go to a priest to have any hope of salvation.
God Bless

People need to confess to a priest because that is the way Jesus established. Take a look at John 20:22-23. Jesus appeared to the apostles, the first priests, and breathed on them imparting the Holy Spirit. Then He tells them that whoever’s sins they forgive are forgiven and the ones they don’t are not forgiven. Why would Jesus say that if He did not intend us to confess to a priest? Short answer, He wouldn’t. How could they forgive or not forgive unless we confessed to them? We confess our sins to a priest because that is what Jesus wants us to do. In light of that, why would anyone not want to do so? Short answer, we shouldn’t.

When you step into the confessional, it is not the priest forgiving your sins. He is there to represent Jesus. At the end the pries says “I absolve you in the name of Jesus Christ,” not his own name. Many non-Catholics believe that the Catholic Church does not believe that Jesus is the only Mediator between God and man. They are wrong. It is only through Jesus that we have any hope of being reconciled. That does not mean that we can’t pray for each other or otherwise help each other along the narrow path that leads to salvation.

Regarding salvation by faith alone, this is a false doctrine introduced by Martin Luther. He altered the text of his German translation of Rom 3:28 to reflect this false belief. (Read his letter to his friend, Dr. Link, where he claims the authority to alter Scripture.)

The only place in the entire Bible where the phrase “faith alone” appears is James 2:24 and it says there that we are not saved by faith alone. The Bible could not possibly be any clearer on this point. If you believe we are saved by faith alone, you are holding to unscriptural teaching. This does not mean that faith does not play a role in our salvation; it most certainly does.

Gary

 

[garysibio]

this is so true. my kids’ dad, a pentecostal, believed his sin was forgiven when he was 4 and got saved and that he never sinned after that. Doesn’t make sense to me.

There are branches of Pentecostalism which believe it is impossible to sin after you are saved. I’m not referring to eternal security; they believe it is impossible for them to commit a sin. I’ve never known anyone who subscribed to this idea but I’d be interested in knowing how they deal with the reality.

Gary

 

[Seeking12]

this is so true. my kids’ dad, a pentecostal, believed his sin was forgiven when he was 4 and got saved and that he never sinned after that. Doesn’t make sense to me.

**As opposed to a different gospel of “meritorious works” (grace plus sacrements) in order to gain more grace, which makes grace no longer grace.

“If anyone says that the justice received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works, but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of its increase, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA” (Sixth Session, Canons Concerning Justification, Canon 24).

Vatican II affirmed the Council of Trent, this is a works salvation, which means grace is no longer grace.

Ephesians 2:5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ by grace you have been saved,

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through R91 faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Works are the fruit of salvation by grace; not the means of grace. If you never grasp this, then you will always hold to another gospel.**

 

[CentralFLJames]

James I doubt you have a clue what it means to be saved and how God works that salvation. Perhaps you could tell all these good people; you have decided that a Protestant doesn’t know; so lets hear it from your own wisdom friend.

You would lose that bet Seeking12. Every single Catholic Saint is a fine example of what it means to be saved. These are in heaven and God, not you or your preacher, has judged them saved.

If you want to make “probability” wagers I will go one up and will say with certainty that no one who goes around publicly saying “I am saved” is likely to be saved. This is an arrogant and presumptuous position that presumes to know the interior state of one’s own soul as if they are God themselves. It is also presuming to be able to Judge for God and denying God His sovereign rite to judge each soul.

No one is saved until God judges them saved.

We can all have faith in Jesus and do our best to conform to his commandments and love our neighbior and obey His earthly representatives and partake of the Holy Eucharist (body and blood of Christ as He commanded) but none of us can presume to know for certainty that we have properly repented of all our sins.

What sin was Jesus’ suffering and death unable to atone for? The one sin that you did not repent of.

Are you saved Seeking12? If so have you repented of your arrogant presuppositions to know how God will judge you as if you have the mind of God? Do you know that is grave matter to think you have the mind of God and can be a deadly sin? If not you do now and you are now culpable for knowing this truth.

So let’s hear it “friend” are you saved?

James

 

[DD2007]

You would lose that bet Seeking12. Every single Catholic Saint is a fine example of what it means to be saved. These are in heaven and God, not you or your preacher, has judged them saved.

If you want to make “probability” wagers I will go one up and will say with certainty that no one who goes around publicly saying “I am saved” is likely to be saved. This is an arrogant and presumptuous position that presumes to know the interior state of one’s own soul as if they are God themselves. It is also presuming to be able to Judge for God and denying God His sovereign rite to judge each soul.

No one is saved until God judges them saved.

We can all have faith in Jesus and do our best to conform to his commandments and love our neighbior and obey His earthly representatives and partake of the Holy Eucharist (body and blood of Christ as He commanded) but none of us can presume to know for certainty that we have properly repented of all our sins.

What sin was Jesus’ suffering and death unable to atone for? The one sin that you did not repent of.

Are you saved Seeking12? If so have you repented of your arrogant presuppositions to know how God will judge you as if you have the mind of God? Do you know that is grave matter to think you have the mind of God and can be a deadly sin? If not you do now and you are now culpable for knowing this truth.

So let’s hear it “friend” are you saved?

James

This entire post shows either a complete misunderstanding or a complete disregard of scripture.

Romans 10:1-13
[1] Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved.
[2] I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but it is not enlightened.
[3] For, being ignorant of the righteousness that comes from God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness.
[4] For Christ is the end of the law, that every one who has faith may be justified.
[5] Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on the law shall live by it.
[6] But the righteousness based on faith says, Do not say in your heart, “Who will ascend into heaven?” (that is, to bring Christ down)
[7] or “Who will descend into the abyss?” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).
[8] But what does it say? The word is near you, on your lips and in your heart (that is, the word of faith which we preach);
[9] because, if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
[10] For man believes with his heart and so is justified, and he confesses with his lips and so is saved.
[11] The scripture says, “No one who believes in him will be put to shame.”
[12] For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all and bestows his riches upon all who call upon him.
[13] For, “every one who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.”

John 14:27
[27] Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid.

John10:27-30
[27] My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me;
[28] and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.
[29] My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
[30] I and the Father are one."

 

[tobinatorstark]

Why would anyone need to confess their sins to a priest. In Mk 15:38 it says the veil of the temple was torn in two signifying that the way into God’s presence was open by the death of his son. You no longer had to go to the priest for your sins. I Tim 2:5 says “There is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus”. Throughout the bible it is faith and faith alone that is commanded as a condition for receiving God’s gift of Salvation. John 3:16, Acts 16:30-31 and John 3:36. A person does not have to go to a priest to have any hope of salvation.
God Bless

In numbers 5:7-10, it explicitly tells us to confess our sins to one another. We do that by confessing to a priest. The priest can’t forgive us our sins because he has no authority to do so. God forgives our sins though. In penance we do confess and discuss our sins with God on a one on one basis. The confessing of sins is for spiritual healing.

 

[BRB1]

I’m not Fr. Corapi but I have heard a lot of his programs. I would assume that what he means is that it is possible for a non-Catholic Christian to go to Heaven. However, just because they don’t believe in Purgatory, doesn’t mean they won’t have to go through it.

Gary

I’ve heard him alot on radio. I’m a big fan too … as you.

But, this EWTN program [where he was teaching a class of perhaps 100 in size on Baptism & Confirmation], was a real eyeopener. He didn’t mince words … he came right out an said Protestants were sealed into Christ, and everybit the Children of God as Catholics.

It did appear to be a program from the past. He had a beard, was wearing a gray cape with hood, and looked 10 years younger than a recent photo of him I’ve seen.

We all know devout Protestants who don’t buy into OSAS concept, and put much emphasis on Spiritual Rebirth, living Beatitudes, doing good deeds, and avoiding sin at all cost.

They are more Catholic … than alot of Catholics. Some who later in life convert to the Church, but many more who never seem to discover the Church.

However, Father Corapi didn’t seem to be talking of this Protestant minority … he was speaking of Protestants with a broad brush.

 

[CentralFLJames]

This entire post shows either a complete misunderstanding or a complete disregard of scripture.

I see you are still inclined to follow your personal tradition of irreverently spamming context-free copy of God’s Sacred Word all over these forums and then pontificate your pithy one liners as if they were dogmatic truths. You should show more reverence for God’s word.

You might also notice that none of the scripture you referenced contradicts anything I have said.

Romans speaks of salvation as a future event for those who are not truly repentant and not bearing the signal fruits of a person who is a member of The True Church - The Catholic Church. There is also an admonishment for those who would self define their own criteria for righteousness - not unlike most non-Catholics in imaging that separation and protest against God’s apostolic authority is ever justified. Indeed Paul teaches pure Catholic doctrine that The Word is on one’s heart and is implanted their as the initial seed of faith one receives from being baptised in The Church (and as The Church teaches must be nurtured and develop into an informed conscious by true apostolic teaching.). And yes he must confess Christ and as well must confess his sins to be saved. Since salvation is simultaneously a past, current and future event that is completed in heaven.

John teaches that a true Christian need not have fear. John is Catholic and so Catholics are confident in their hope of salvation and need not fear while they remain in communion with Christ and His Church. And we know that within Christ’s grasp all are secure in that that he holds most dear - The Bride, that is The Catholic Church, that he clutches to bosom and will never let go least one choose to leave that divine embrace.

Yet another unsubstantiated claim by DD and yet another refutation. If this keeps up I am going to have to start using Roman Numerals rather than notches in the handle of my six-shooter …

James

 

[DD2007]

I see you are still inclined to follow your personal tradition of irreverently spamming context-free copy of God’s Sacred Word all over these forums and then pontificate your pithy one liners as if they were dogmatic truths. You should show more reverence for God’s word.

You might also notice that none of the scripture you referenced contradicts anything I have said.

Romans speaks of salvation as a future event for those who are not truly repentant and not bearing the signal fruits of a person who is a member of The True Church - The Catholic Church. There is also an admonishment for those who would self define their own criteria for righteousness - not unlike most non-Catholics in imaging that separation and protest against God’s apostolic authority is ever justified. Indeed Paul teaches pure Catholic doctrine that The Word is on one’s heart and is implanted their as the initial seed of faith one receives from being baptised in The Church (and as The Church teaches must be nurtured and develop into an informed conscious by true apostolic teaching.). And yes he must confess Christ and as well must confess his sins to be saved. Since salvation is simultaneously a past, current and future event that is completed in heaven.

John teaches that a true Christian need not have fear. John is Catholic and so Catholics are confident in their hope of salvation and need not fear while they remain in communion with Christ and His Church. And we know that within Christ’s grasp all are secure in that that he holds most dear - The Bride, that is The Catholic Church, that he clutches to bosom and will never let go least one choose to leave that divine embrace.

Another unsubstantiated claim by DD…

James

If God required you to be a member of a specific denomination he would have stated the name of the denominatin clearly in scripture. Instead he said this:

Ephesians 2:8-9
[8] For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God –
[9] not because of works, lest any man should boast.

So only the grace of God saves by the faith that he gives you by grace. There is not one single work you can do that will effect your salvation at all.

And quoting the bible as your authoritative source of truth is one of the greatest honors you can give it becaue by doing that you are then saying that you do indeed believe that God inspired it and are acknowledging it is indeed authoritative.

To quote scripture is to follow the example of Christ who quoted it often to prove his points.