"Father, forgive them for they know not what they do"

[hellopeople]

This is a quote from Luke 23:34. While reading this, I saw that there was a footnote in my Bible (NRSV) and it stated that this saying was not in some early manuscripts. This actually disheartened me quite a bit. This is probably one of my favorite quotes of Jesus and I think it is very telling of his opinion. My main question is, did he actually say it? What do you thin.

 

[CWBetts]

This is a quote from Luke 23:34. While reading this, I saw that there was a footnote in my Bible (NRSV) and it stated that this saying was not in some early manuscripts. This actually disheartened me quite a bit. This is probably one of my favorite quotes of Jesus and I think it is very telling of his opinion. My main question is, did he actually say it? What do you thin.

Do not listen to “Bible Scholars.” The Scriptures are inerrant. Our beliefs in the scriptures are not governed by Bible scholars, but by the Magisterium as guided by the Holy Spirit. Jesus said it.

 

[hellopeople]

Do not listen to “Bible Scholars.” The Scriptures are inerrant. Our beliefs in the scriptures are not governed by Bible scholars, but by the Magisterium as guided by the Holy Spirit. Jesus said it.

Well if it wasn’t in the original copies, then maybe Jesus didn’t say it…and to be honest, even if it was in the original copies it doesn’t guarantee that Jesus said it.

 

[CWBetts]

Well if it wasn’t in the original copies, then maybe Jesus didn’t say it…and to be honest, even if it was in the original copies it doesn’t guarantee that Jesus said it.

It is preserved in our Bibles, meaning it was preserved by the Holy Spirit. And frankly, we don’t have access to ANY of the original documents. All we have are copies. I would direct you to The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable bu F.F. Bruce. It addresses these same questions you are struggling with. Remember we put our faith in the Church, not Bible scholars.

 

[patrick457]

This is a quote from Luke 23:34. While reading this, I saw that there was a footnote in my Bible (NRSV) and it stated that this saying was not in some early manuscripts. This actually disheartened me quite a bit. This is probably one of my favorite quotes of Jesus and I think it is very telling of his opinion. My main question is, did he actually say it? What do you thin.

This is the NETBible’s footnote for the passage:

Many important mss (Ì75 א1 B D* W Θ 070 579 1241 pc sys sa) lack v. 34a. It is included in א*,2 (A) C D2 L Ψ 0250 Ë1,(13) 33 Ï lat syc,p,h. It also fits a major Lukan theme of forgiving the enemies (6:27-36), and it has a parallel in Stephen’s response in Acts 7:60. The lack of parallels in the other Gospels argues also for inclusion here. On the other hand, the fact of the parallel in Acts 7:60 may well have prompted early scribes to insert the saying in Luke’s Gospel alone. Further, there is the great difficulty of explaining why early and diverse witnesses lack the saying. A decision is difficult, but even those who regard the verse as inauthentic literarily often consider it to be authentic historically…

For the funny letters:

Lacking 23:34

Ì75: Papyrus 75 (AD 175-225)
א1: Codex Sinaiticus (c. AD 330-360)
B: Codex Vaticanus (c. AD 325-350)
D:* Codex Bezae, Latin (c. AD 400)
W: Codex Washingtonianus (c. 4th-5th century)
Θ: Codex Koridethi (9th century)
070: Uncial 070 (6th century)
579: Minuscule 579 (13th century)
1241: Minuscule 1241 (12th century)
sys: Syriac Sinaiticus, aka Sinaitic Palimpsest (late 4th century)
pc sa: A few (pauci) Coptic Sahidic witnesses

 

[Mark77]

Well if it wasn’t in the original copies, then maybe Jesus didn’t say it…and to be honest, even if it was in the original copies it doesn’t guarantee that Jesus said it.

**Exactly! There are no guarantees! You must decide & then answer for your decisions at the Final Judgment!!!
**
As a matter of fact, if you don’t accept the Catholic Church’s authority as the entity that determined, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, what would be included in the Canon of Sacred Scripture, then you are out of luck!

By your logic, since everyone who heard Jesus say those words have been dead for nearly 2000 years, you probably shouldn’t believe anything in Sacred Scripture?

Sancta Maria, Mater dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

mark

 

[JohnT58]

Before there was any (New Testament in this case) Scripture, there was always tradition, and by that I mean, ( and think the church means) what was, and has always been held to be true. So even if it weren’t in scripture, it could still be true in tradition. But it is there, and as has been pointed out, the originals don’t exist. As a Catholic, I think its safe to assume it is a true statement, considering it is in the Bible and in tradition.

 

[Major_Tom]

Do not listen to “Bible Scholars.” The Scriptures are inerrant. Our beliefs in the scriptures are not governed by Bible scholars, but by the Magisterium as guided by the Holy Spirit. Jesus said it.

Those words aren’t found in Matthew’s version, where Jesus was much less talkative. If indeed he said those words, do you think that it was before or after “My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?”. I don’t think that it’s a trite question. “Father forgive them…” has quite a completely different tone to it than the plaintive, hurt “Why have you forsaken me?”

 

[CWBetts]

Those words aren’t found in Matthew’s version, where Jesus was much less talkative. If indeed he said those words, do you think that it was before or after “My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?”. I don’t think that it’s a trite question. “Father forgive them…” has quite a completely different tone to it than the plaintive, hurt “Why have you forsaken me?”

I would have to see what is view is held by the Fathers. My guess would be (without first doing an in-depth study) is that it was said before He prayed the 22nd Psalm.

 

[Major_Tom]

Exactly! There are no guarantees! You must decide & then answer for your decisions at the Final Judgment!!!

As a matter of fact, if you don’t accept the Catholic Church’s authority as the entity that determined, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, what would be included in the Canon of Sacred Scripture, then you are out of luck!

By your logic, since everyone who heard Jesus say those words have been dead for nearly 2000 years, you probably shouldn’t believe anything in Sacred Scripture?

Sancta Maria, Mater dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

mark

Hmm. Your response seems way over the top for a question from ‘hellopeople’ that seemed sincere, and a response from him that seemed, if anything, mild and certainly not confrontational. If you pulled out the red font and the ‘all-caps’ for that I’d hate to see you when you’re angry !

I think that his question is a very valid one. Perhaps you can chime in on the question I asked above regarding the different quote in Matthew’s Gospel. The first chronologically written Gospel (Mark) has Jesus saying “My God, why have you forsaken me?”. Matthew, writing later, includes it verbatim. However, Luke, also writing later, and also using Mark as a source, does not. That warrants a “Hmmmmmm” in my book. Especially, as I mentioned above, when those quotes are not merely written off as transcription errors, but seem to be at odds with other.

 

[patrick457]

I think that his question is a very valid one. Perhaps you can chime in on the question I asked above regarding the different quote in Matthew’s Gospel. The first chronologically written Gospel (Mark) has Jesus saying “My God, why have you forsaken me?”. Matthew, writing later, includes it verbatim. However, Luke, also writing later, and also using Mark as a source, does not. That warrants a “Hmmmmmm” in my book. Especially, as I mentioned above, when those quotes are not merely written off as transcription errors, but seem to be at odds with other.

Well, about those quotes:

Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land until the ninth hour; now about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a great voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachtani?” (that is, ‘My God, my God, why did you abandon me?’) Now some of those standing there, having heard, said, “This man is calling for Elias!” And immediately, one of them having run and having taken a sponge, having filled it with vinegar and having put it on a reed, was giving Him to drink. Now the rest said, “Let Him be! Let us see if Elias comes to save Him.” [Now another took a spear and pierced Him in the side, and there came out water and blood.*] And Jesus, having again cried with a great voice, gave up His spirit.

• Early and important MSS (א B C L Γ pc) have this sentence at the end of this verse. This comment finds such a strong parallel in John 19:34 leads some to think that it was undoubtedly lifted from John by early, well-meaning scribes and inserted into Matthew 27:49. Consequently, even though the support for the shorter reading (A D W Θ Ë1,13 33 Ï lat sy sa bo) is not nearly as impressive, internal considerations on its behalf are compelling.

-Matthew 27:45-50

And the sixth hour having come, darkness came over the whole land until the ninth hour, and at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a great voice, saying, “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachtani?” (which means, ‘My God, my God, why did you abandon me?’)
And some of those standing by, having heard, said, “Behold, He is calling for Elias!” Now one having run and having filled a sponge with vinegar, having put it on a reed, was giving Him to drink, saying, “Let Him be! Let us see if Elijah will come to take Him down!” Now Jesus having cried with a great voice, breathed His last.

-Mark 15:32-37

And it was about the sixth hour, and darkness came over all the land until the ninth hour for the sun failed; and the veil of the sanctuary was torn in two. And having cried with a great voice, Jesus said, “Father, ‘into your hands I entrust my spirit!’” And these things having said, He breathed His last.

-Luke 23:44-46

After this Jesus, knowing that all things were now consummated, said (in order to consummate the Scripture), “I thirst!” A jar full of sour wine was there, so they put a sponge soaked in sour wine on hyssop and brought it to His mouth. Therefore when He had received the sour wine, Jesus said, “Consummated!” And He bowed His head and gave over the spirit.

-John 19:28-30

Okay, can you point out the contradictions?

 

[CWBetts]

Hmm. Your response seems way over the top for a question from ‘hellopeople’ that seemed sincere, and a response from him that seemed, if anything, mild and certainly not confrontational. If you pulled out the red font and the ‘all-caps’ for that I’d hate to see you when you’re angry !

I think that his question is a very valid one. Perhaps you can chime in on the question I asked above regarding the different quote in Matthew’s Gospel. The first chronologically written Gospel (Mark) has Jesus saying “My God, why have you forsaken me?”. Matthew, writing later, includes it verbatim. However, Luke, also writing later, and also using Mark as a source, does not. That warrants a “Hmmmmmm” in my book. Especially, as I mentioned above, when those quotes are not merely written off as transcription errors, but seem to be at odds with other.

While your chronology (Marcan Priority) is certainly the majority viewpoint, it cannot be presented as absolute fact because it is dependent on a hypothetical source of which there are absolutely no extant copies. I am referring her to “Q” of course. Even if the Marcan Priority Hypothesis were correct, which it nay very well be, it is also believed by Many that Q is a collection of sayings of Jesus collected by Matthew. But there is another hypothesis, which is the minority view, wherein Matthew wrote first, Mark based his Gospel of of Matthew, with (name removed by moderator)ut from Simon Peter, and then Luke wrote using the two previous Gospels,as well as unique material from other eyewitnesses (such as Mary for the infancy narratives).
But all of this is really moot. We should not expect the Gospels to be identical. They are written bu different authors, to different audiences, with different perspectives, and therefore highlight different things. None of the four Gospels give a full account of everything Jesus said and did. According to John, the “world would not be able to hold all of the books.” There is a very good reason why Matthew and Mark would contain “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me.” while it would be omitted by Luke. It has to do with audience. Matthew in particular was written to a Jewish audience. This explains the many references to the Old Testament, including this line which is from Psalm 22. It is the very first line, in fact. Luke, writing to Greeks, did not include it because it would not have significance to a an audience not intimately familiar with the Psalms. Your suspicion is wholly unwarranted.

 

[patrick457]

While your chronology (Marcan Priority) is certainly the majority viewpoint, it cannot be presented as absolute fact because it is dependent on a hypothetical source of which there are absolutely no extant copies. I am referring her to “Q” of course. Even if the Marcan Priority Hypothesis were correct, which it nay very well be, it is also believed by Many that Q is a collection of sayings of Jesus collected by Matthew. But there is another hypothesis, which is the minority view, wherein Matthew wrote first, Mark based his Gospel of of Matthew, with (name removed by moderator)ut from Simon Peter, and then Luke wrote using the two previous Gospels,as well as unique material from other eyewitnesses (such as Mary for the infancy narratives).

It may be the minority view now, but it certainly is an old opinion historically. After all, it’s called the Augustinian hypothesis after St. Augustine, the first author to give a detailed scholarly textual analysis of the interdependence of the Synoptics and to articulate a theory for the express purpose of explaining this fact! (though, St. Irenaeus and Origen already expressed this idea before him)

I’ll admit that I am lean more towards Matthean priority, because it is historically the majority view (Markan priority notably only became popular in 19th century scholarship), but I don’t follow the Augustinian hypothesis wholesale - I also take into consideration the Griesbach hypothesis.

 

[CWBetts]

It may be the minority view now, but it certainly is an old opinion historically. After all, it’s called the Augustinian hypothesis after St. Augustine, the first author to give a detailed scholarly textual analysis of the interdependence of the Synoptics and to articulate a theory for the express purpose of explaining this fact! (though, St. Irenaeus and Origen already expressed this idea before him)

I’ll admit that I am lean more towards Matthean priority, because it is historically the majority view (Markan priority notably only became popular in 19th century scholarship), but I don’t follow the Augustinian hypothesis wholesale - I also take into consideration the Griesbach hypothesis.

The Augustinian Hypothesis is distinct from the Matthen Priority Hypothesis. I don’t have my notes with me immediately, on hand, but there is a small distinction…let me get back to you on that. I personally hold the Maracan hypothesis, if it is understood that Q is a collection compiled by Matthew.

 

[patrick457]

The Augustinian Hypothesis is distinct from the Matthen Priority Hypothesis. I don’t have my notes with me immediately, on hand, but there is a small distinction…let me get back to you on that. I personally hold the Maracan hypothesis, if it is understood that Q is a collection compiled by Matthew.

That’s okay - I think I know the difference a bit. Sorry if I haven’t been clear on that last post.
I’m also considering the possibility of Markan priority, but personally I don’t feel any need for Q - though I do agree with you that if Q really did exist, it has some connection with Matthew. In fact. I’m thinking that what if the purported Hebrew version of Matthew, aka the Gospel of the Hebrews that some Church Fathers talk about, was the Q that scholars are searching for?

Okay everyone, I’m sorry for taking the tangent too far.

 

[Cashue]

This is a quote from Luke 23:34. While reading this, I saw that there was a footnote in my Bible (NRSV) and it stated that this saying was not in some early manuscripts. This actually disheartened me quite a bit. This is probably one of my favorite quotes of Jesus and I think it is very telling of his opinion. My main question is, did he actually say it? What do you thin.

Don’t be disheartened, the church has approved the verse so it really does belong in the bible regardless.

 

[Major_Tom]

Well, about those quotes:

Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land until the ninth hour; now about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a great voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachtani?” (that is, ‘My God, my God, why did you abandon me?’) Now some of those standing there, having heard, said, “This man is calling for Elias!” And immediately, one of them having run and having taken a sponge, having filled it with vinegar and having put it on a reed, was giving Him to drink. Now the rest said, “Let Him be! Let us see if Elias comes to save Him.” [Now another took a spear and pierced Him in the side, and there came out water and blood.*] And Jesus, having again cried with a great voice, gave up His spirit.

• Early and important MSS (א B C L Γ pc) have this sentence at the end of this verse. This comment finds such a strong parallel in John 19:34 leads some to think that it was undoubtedly lifted from John by early, well-meaning scribes and inserted into Matthew 27:49. Consequently, even though the support for the shorter reading (A D W Θ Ë1,13 33 Ï lat sy sa bo) is not nearly as impressive, internal considerations on its behalf are compelling.

-Matthew 27:45-50

And the sixth hour having come, darkness came over the whole land until the ninth hour, and at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a great voice, saying, “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachtani?” (which means, ‘My God, my God, why did you abandon me?’)
And some of those standing by, having heard, said, “Behold, He is calling for Elias!” Now one having run and having filled a sponge with vinegar, having put it on a reed, was giving Him to drink, saying, “Let Him be! Let us see if Elijah will come to take Him down!” Now Jesus having cried with a great voice, breathed His last.

-Mark 15:32-37

And it was about the sixth hour, and darkness came over all the land until the ninth hour for the sun failed; and the veil of the sanctuary was torn in two. And having cried with a great voice, Jesus said, “Father, ‘into your hands I entrust my spirit!’” And these things having said, He breathed His last.

-Luke 23:44-46

After this Jesus, knowing that all things were now consummated, said (in order to consummate the Scripture), “I thirst!” A jar full of sour wine was there, so they put a sponge soaked in sour wine on hyssop and brought it to His mouth. Therefore when He had received the sour wine, Jesus said, “Consummated!” And He bowed His head and gave over the spirit.

-John 19:28-30

Okay, can you point out the contradictions?

Nice information that you’ve assembled. Thank you for posting.