"Father, forgive them, for they not know", but

[MarcoPG]

Hello,
I was wondering how to understand the fact that Jesus’ death was needed for our redemption, and it was Jesus’ sacrifice, not merely an execution.
So: why could this sacrifice ever be held as a sin, which have to be forgiven by God?

If Jesus’ crucifixion was itself a sin on the part of some of the jewish leaders, how could this “sin” take all sins away?
It sounds like if the people had known, they would have stopped Jesus, since it is better for them not to sin. But then this is no better than Peter, which was called Satan for this.

So, my view is this: Jesus’ sacrifice in itself is no sin, because it is His choice; it is the greatest grace. It is the reasons why the ones who wanted to kill him had that makes it a great sin on their part.

Is it clear enough to respond to this difficulty that is Jesus’ death = “sin by the Jews” but keeping Jesus from suffering = sin as well ?
Is it correct to think if we had known, we would have wanted Jesus to die anyway for us (pretty much like what the Virgin would have thought, i guess).

Thank you for reading my elucubrations

 

[St_Francis]

Well, there’s sin, and then there’s the suffering of the victims of the sin.

Those who condemned Christ to death were sinning because they were causing the death of an innocent human being.

Christ was the *victim *of this sin, so He did not sin at all.

Instead, as High Priest, He was able to offer up His victimhood, His death, as a sacrifice to God.

 

[MarcoPG]

Well, there’s sin, and then there’s the suffering of the victims of the sin.

Those who condemned Christ to death were sinning because they were causing the death of an innocent human being.

Christ was the *victim *of this sin, so He did not sin at all.

Instead, as High Priest, He was able to offer up His victimhood, His death, as a sacrifice to God.

Sure, but that death of the just is what was needed, so how is this a sin?

 

[MarcoPG]

Sure, but that death of the just is what was needed, so how is this a sin?

I’d like to add this: that it seems odd; either way. When Peter says Jesus shouldn’t die, Jesus rebukes him. So I would think here Peter sinned. OK then.
But then when Jesus is geting crucified, how is his death also a sin on the behalf of the people there, that if they had known, they wouldn’t have killed Him, then.
If this is the case, we go back to situation where Peter was rebuked.

 

[St_Francis]

Sure, but that death of the just is what was needed, so how is this a sin?

God is outside of time, so He can see everything all at once.

So, there is a very exciting movie about a man going after bad guys who have kidnapped his family. I got so into this movie that I was cheering as he got the bad guys and rescued his family! A couple of years later, *even tho I knew what would happen, *I was on the edge of my seat until victory was assured, and again I cheered!

So that’s how I see God He is saying, “No, no, no!” as we do foolish or sinful things, *even tho He knows the outcome. *

So God knew what would happen, and He used that for good. Knowing what would happen, He arranged for it to be just what was needed.

But that does not mean that those who put Christ to death didn’t sin, it just means that God was able to turn their sin to use for good.

It’s kind of like if some teens come to a town and burn down the first unoccupied house they find. Well, the fact that as a result a house is really bad shape was destroyed at little cost to the owner does not in any way mitigate the sinfulness and criminality of what the teens did, does it?

Those who condemned Christ to death sinned, and God used that sin to redeem us.

 

[MarcoPG]

God is outside of time, so He can see everything all at once.

So, there is a very exciting movie about a man going after bad guys who have kidnapped his family. I got so into this movie that I was cheering as he got the bad guys and rescued his family! A couple of years later, *even tho I knew what would happen, *I was on the edge of my seat until victory was assured, and again I cheered!

So that’s how I see God He is saying, “No, no, no!” as we do foolish or sinful things, *even tho He knows the outcome. *

So God knew what would happen, and He used that for good. Knowing what would happen, He arranged for it to be just what was needed.

But that does not mean that those who put Christ to death didn’t sin, it just means that God was able to turn their sin to use for good.

It’s kind of like if some teens come to a town and burn down the first unoccupied house they find. Well, the fact that as a result a house is really bad shape was destroyed at little cost to the owner does not in any way mitigate the sinfulness and criminality of what the teens did, does it?

Those who condemned Christ to death sinned, and God used that sin to redeem us.

I don’t see how this responds my question, the eternal now has nothing to do with my question, nor prescience or predestination. But simply, because in the Gospels we have Jesus saying He needs to die, and then asking for forgiveness for the people who put HIm to death, it seems odd. Doesn’t “for they know not” imply that if they had known what they were doing, they wouldn’t have killed Him? But then what is the option? Making Him King, and this is not what Jesus wanted. Jesus came to sacrifice himself, among other things, so why asking for forgiveness for something He came to do freely? If the death was needed and freely chosen, how is putting Him to death a sin which can be held against them?

 

[Memaw]

I’d like to add this: that it seems odd; either way. When Peter says Jesus shouldn’t die, Jesus rebukes him. So I would think here Peter sinned. OK then.
But then when Jesus is geting crucified, how is his death also a sin on the behalf of the people there, that if they had known, they wouldn’t have killed Him, then.
If this is the case, we go back to situation where Peter was rebuked.

If what they were doing was not a sin, the WHY did Jesus ask HIS FATHER to forgive them??? When you understand EVERYTHING about God, come and tell us. God Bless, Memaw

 

[AmbroseSJ]

So, my view is this: Jesus’ sacrifice in itself is no sin, because it is His choice; it is the greatest grace. It is the reasons why the ones who wanted to kill him had that makes it a great sin on their part.

So didn’t you answer your own question here?

 

[MarcoPG]

If what they were doing was not a sin, the WHY did Jesus ask HIS FATHER to forgive them??? When you understand EVERYTHING about God, come and tell us. God Bless, Memaw

But this is precisely the thing. If it is a sin, why is this sin needed in order for Jesus to be able to sacrifice?

How can a sin be needed to receive grace?

It would be nice to understand that since I ask the question, I don’t know everything about God…what gives you this impression?

 

[MarcoPG]

So didn’t you answer your own question here?

But my view may be wrong. It is you all who could support or deny my opinion. What is yours, for instance?

 

[AmbroseSJ]

But this is precisely the thing. If it is a sin, why is this sin needed in order for Jesus to be able to sacrifice?

How can a sin be needed to receive grace?

A sin is never needed. That Jesus’ sacrifice on Calvary happened in the way it did WAS BECAUSE of sin. IOW, sin does not prevent God’s grace from happening. But on the other hand, without sin, a different scenario might have happened. Jesus Himself alludes to that possibility when he weeps over Jerusalem for not recognizing the time of their visitation.

 

[MarcoPG]

A sin is never needed. That Jesus’ sacrifice on Calvary happened in the way it did WAS BECAUSE of sin. IOW, sin does not prevent God’s grace from happening. But on the other hand, without sin, a different scenario might have happened. Jesus Himself alludes to that possibility when he weeps over Jerusalem for not recognizing the time of their visitation.

I understand all this, but my point is: The salvation came with His sacrifice. But had they known what they were doing, namely killing the Son of God, would they have crucified Him? No, I don’t think so; you see episodes where people wants him to be king.
But this is precisely the kind of Messiah some apostles wanted too, and that is why Peter was rebuked, because this killing was necessary.
So if a thing is necessary, why would you ask for forgiveness for it?

 

[St_Francis]

I don’t see how this responds my question, the eternal now has nothing to do with my question, nor prescience or predestination. But simply, because in the Gospels we have Jesus saying He needs to die, and then asking for forgiveness for the people who put HIm to death, it seems odd. Doesn’t “for they know not” imply that if they had known what they were doing, they wouldn’t have killed Him? But then what is the option? Making Him King, and this is not what Jesus wanted. Jesus came to sacrifice himself, among other things, so why asking for forgiveness for something He came to do freely? If the death was needed and freely chosen, how is putting Him to death a sin which can be held against them?

The point of bringing in the eternal is that God knew this would happen. God knew that men would sinfully put Christ to death, and that the sacrifice that Christ made of their sin would redeem mankind. Christ did not chose that they would sin; He chose to go along with it and make of Himself a sacrificial “lamb.”

But we can tell that the people who condemned Him knew He was innocent. The Pharisees had plenty of evidence as to Who He was. Pilate asked them why they were putting an innocent man to death. But for selfish reasons, all along the line, they went along with it.

The fact that Christ asked God to forgive them shows that they were in need of forgiveness.

 

[Memaw]

But this is precisely the thing. If it is a sin, why is this sin needed in order for Jesus to be able to sacrifice?

How can a sin be needed to receive grace?

It would be nice to understand that since I ask the question, I don’t know everything about God…what gives you this impression?

You are trying to figure out a Mystery of God. and that is why I said that. When you find out, let us know! God brings good out of evil. Where sin abounds, GRACE abounds the more!! God Bless.Memaw

 

[mikekle]

God is outside of time, so He can see everything all at once.

So, there is a very exciting movie about a man going after bad guys who have kidnapped his family. I got so into this movie that I was cheering as he got the bad guys and rescued his family! A couple of years later, *even tho I knew what would happen, *I was on the edge of my seat until victory was assured, and again I cheered!

So that’s how I see God He is saying, “No, no, no!” as we do foolish or sinful things, *even tho He knows the outcome. *

So God knew what would happen, and He used that for good. Knowing what would happen, He arranged for it to be just what was needed.

But that does not mean that those who put Christ to death didn’t sin, it just means that God was able to turn their sin to use for good.

It’s kind of like if some teens come to a town and burn down the first unoccupied house they find. Well, the fact that as a result a house is really bad shape was destroyed at little cost to the owner does not in any way mitigate the sinfulness and criminality of what the teens did, does it?

Those who condemned Christ to death sinned, and God used that sin to redeem us.

But all those who condemned Jesus and wanted him crucified, still were kind of ‘entrapped’, they wanted him killed for their own reasons, but Jesus knew the REAL reason why this had to happen, and kind of used them to achieve this…right?

Plus the statement that they know not what they are doing…well, if all those people knew the real truth, that his crucifixion would lead to everyones sin being taken away, Im sure they would encourage his death even more.

 

[St_Francis]

But all those who condemned Jesus and wanted him crucified, still were kind of ‘entrapped’, they wanted him killed for their own reasons, but Jesus knew the REAL reason why this had to happen, and kind of used them to achieve this…right?

He did not use them in the meaning of manipulating them. And they could have changed their minds at any time–God would have done something else if they had.

But they didn’t. The fact that God was able to draw good out of their evil does not render what they did any less sinful.

Plus the statement that they know not what they are doing…well, if all those people knew the real truth, that his crucifixion would lead to everyones sin being taken away, Im sure they would encourage his death even more.

I think that anyone with the clarity to know Christ would not want to kill Him, even if he or she knew that we would be redeemed His death. Like so many things regarding God, there is only enough evidence to allow us to chose.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

I understand all this, but my point is: The salvation came with His sacrifice. But had they known what they were doing, namely killing the Son of God, would they have crucified Him?

You are actually making a case for my earlier point, about Jesus weeping over Jerusalem, because they did not know the time of their visitation.

You can play “what if” into infinity, but what we have to hold on to is what really happened.

 

[MarcoPG]

I will try, in the ten minutes that I have, to restate my question. Let’s look at Peter. He knows Jesus is the Son of Godm therefore he doesn’t want him to die like this. Wel, this is not the right way to think, says Jesus, because I am here to give my life. Ok

Then, when he is giving his life, the ones killing him should be forgiven. But aren’t the ones who want him killed follow the plan of salvation more than Peter, without knowing what they do? So why is this to be forgiven?

 

[AmbroseSJ]

I will try, in the ten minutes that I have, to restate my question. Let’s look at Peter. He knows Jesus is the Son of Godm therefore he doesn’t want him to die like this. Wel, this is not the right way to think, says Jesus, because I am here to give my life. Ok

Then, when he is giving his life, the ones killing him should be forgiven. But aren’t the ones who want him killed follow the plan of salvation more than Peter, without knowing what they do? So why is this to be forgiven?

I think you are putting the cart before the horse here.

They (the killers of Jesus) did not do what they did so that they could be helping the plan of God. They did what they did so they could help their OWN agendas. It is only in retrospect that we can see they fulfilled Scripture, even while sinning. But it was always their own choice of evil that was forgiven. The end does not justify the means ever.

The fact that God KNEW from all eternity what they would do, HAS NO BEARING on what they the sinners would choose to do.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

When Jesus prayed ‘forgive them Father’ who is ‘them?’

Me, you and every generation of mankind is ‘them’ Jesus died so that my sins could be forgiven. And just to get some idea of what Jesus was prepared to die for, he did not say, forgive them Father, except those who nailed me to the cross.