Father, forgive them. They know not what they do

  • Thread starter Thread starter PeteZaHut
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
P

PeteZaHut

Guest
Can we say that those who crucified Jesus were forgiven or just that he left it up to the Father?
 
Three Divine Persons in One God. Where One is, the other two are there as well.
 
If they weren’t contrite, I don’t see how they could have been forgiven. To be forgiven, one has to desire forgiveness.
 
The crucifixion is both a judgment and forgiveness. Read through the psalms about “they gave me gall to drink”; Entire psalms do nothing but place a curse upon those who would recall the psalm and commit the crime at the moment of his crucifixion in mockery. At one point in the psalms, which also carries the aspect of a curse, it says “into your hands I commend my spirit”.

Jesus says, forgive them for they know not what they do, but he also says in John’s Gospel; John 15:22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they would not be guilty of sin. But now they have no excuse for their sin.

I suppose, as a member of the human race, I am involved in Jesus’ Crucifixion, but I don’t think it has quite the same meaning as “we crucified Jesus” in a personal sense. I have been guilty of disbelief in the past, and subjecting myself as image of God to distortions but I haven’t murdered anyone personally…
I do think there is a difference; though being damned doesn’t require murder alone.
On the other hand, Jesus says “I will remember your sins no more”. There is a point where guilt must end, otherwise forgiveness hasn’t been accepted.

His crucifixion has two aspects, one of sacrifice and purification and resurrection, and the other of those who saw him but preferred darkness and sin. It is possible to raise up the son of man, without bearing evil intent. That aspect is very much visible in benediction with the blessed sacrament and at the hands of the priest.

I do believe, also, in the very real existence of a hell of permanent evil. I would like to entertain the hope that it is as empty as possible, but there is also a recognition that hope is against the odds. It isn’t a real hope, but only a hope against hope.

Peace.
 
Huiou_Theou said:
Jesus says, forgive them for they know not what they do, but he also says in John’s Gospel; John 15:22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they would not be guilty of sin. But now they have no excuse for their sin.
Click to expand...
I remember in one of my bibles, I think it was the Jerusalem Bible, in one of the commentators notes which said, this prayer was said specificaly for the Roman soldiers. And it mentioned a name of an early father of the Church had this in one of his writtings.
So if that is true, then it was not said for the Jews who had Him crucified. You can take this for whatever you think its worth. I personnally think Jesus said it for everyone.

St. Stephen, the first adult martyr, (the 40 innocents were the first martyrs), also said these words for those putting him to death and they were Jews, and one of them happened to be Saul, alias the St. Paul (Pharasee) who became a convert…​

“…love everyone, especially the brethern.” Paul, murderer and convert.
 
fred_conty said:
I remember in one of my bibles, I think it was the Jerusalem Bible, in one of the commentators notes which said, this prayer was said specificaly for the Roman soldiers. And it mentioned a name of an early father of the Church had this in one of his writtings.
So if that is true, then it was not said for the Jews who had Him crucified. You can take this for whatever you think its worth. I personnally think Jesus said it for everyone.

St. Stephen, the first adult martyr, (the 40 innocents were the first martyrs), also said these words for those putting him to death and they were Jews, and one of them happened to be Saul, alias the St. Paul (Pharasee) who became a convert…​

“…love everyone, especially the brethern.” Paul, murderer and convert.
Click to expand...
Well thought out. 👍
 
Pete,

There has been very little commentary on exactly what Christ meant when he uttered these words on the cross. For me, at first glance, the two sentences seem inconsistent (I will explain below).
  1. One position is that Christ, by actually speaking out these words so that others could hear him, was, simply continuing his role as “teacher” by reminding us that even in the most trying of circumstances, we should always be willing to forgive our enemies, no matter how seriously they harm us.
  2. A second explanation is that Christ was not forgiving the Jews because they knew they had sought the blood of a truly innocent man. He was asking God to forgive his actual executioners - the Romans - as they certainly did not believe in Jewish prophecy (an exception would be the Centurion) and they were merely carrying out orders of their superiors in executing “criminals”.
  3. A third explanation - which flies in the face of the second one above - is that Christ WAS asking God to forgive the Jews who had sought his blood, because although they DID believe he had broken a sacred law (blasphemy) and deserved death for that crime, they had no idea they were committing decide. This interpretation incorporating the crime of decide is actually supported by St. Paul’s 1st Letter to the Corinthians, Chpt. 2, verse 8, where he says referring to the Jewish leaders at the time of Christ’s Passion: “Which none of the princes of this world knew; for if they had known it, they would never had crucified the Lord of glory.”
  4. This fourth one is mine and what I referred to above as seemingly inconsitent on its face: how can someone sin if one does not know one is sinning? After all, we are taught that one of the requisites of sinning is knowingly acting in a manner that is inconsistent with God. So, if they executioners did not know what they were doing was wrong, what sin had they committed that required forgiveness?
For me, I favor the first explanation/interpretation: Christ, ever the supreme Teacher, teaching forgiveness even in the throes of death. He shows us, by example, to forgive those who hurt us the worst. But He not only tells God to forgive them - he actually teaches us to go the “extra mile” in forgiving, by looking for reasons TO forgive.
 
Huiou_Theou said:
The crucifixion is both a judgment and forgiveness. Read through the psalms about “they gave me gall to drink”; Entire psalms do nothing but place a curse upon those who would recall the psalm and commit the crime at the moment of his crucifixion in mockery. At one point in the psalms, which also carries the aspect of a curse, it says “into your hands I commend my spirit”.

Jesus says, forgive them for they know not what they do, but he also says in John’s Gospel; John 15:22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they would not be guilty of sin. But now they have no excuse for their sin.

His crucifixion has two aspects, one of sacrifice and purification and resurrection, and the other of those who saw him but preferred darkness and sin. It is possible to raise up the son of man, without bearing evil intent. That aspect is very much visible in benediction with the blessed sacrament and at the hands of the priest.

Peace.
Click to expand...
Very insightful. Thanks.

-Tim-
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top