Father is not exactly like the ‘Son’

  • Thread starter Thread starter paarsurrey
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
P

paarsurrey

Guest
Hi

There are many problems with the Christian understanding of Jesus, his nature and his relationship with God. From a critical and analytical study of Catholic doctrine, what we understand is that there is a ‘Son of God’, who possesses the characteristics of a perfect man and also that of a perfect god.

However as we understand even according to the Catholic doctrine the Father is not exactly like the ‘Son’. The FatherGod is a perfect God and not a perfect man, while the ‘Son’ is both a perfect man and a perfect god. In that case these are two separate personalities with different characteristics.

Am I right?

Do you agree with me?
 
paarsurrey said:
Hi

There are many problems with the Christian understanding of Jesus, his nature and his relationship with God. From a critical and analytical study of Catholic doctrine, what we understand is that there is a ‘Son of God’, who possesses the characteristics of a perfect man and also that of a perfect god.

However as we understand even according to the Catholic doctrine the Father is not exactly like the ‘Son’. The FatherGod is a perfect God and not a perfect man, while the ‘Son’ is both a perfect man and a perfect god. In that case these are two separate personalities with different characteristics.

Am I right?

Do you agree with me?
Click to expand...
Yeah, otherwise one wouldn’t be called Father God and the other Son God. To me that means 1 + 1 = 2 Gods.
 
paarsurrey said:
Hi

There are many problems with the Christian understanding of Jesus, his nature and his relationship with God. From a critical and analytical study of Catholic doctrine, what we understand is that there is a ‘Son of God’, who possesses the characteristics of a perfect man and also that of a perfect god.

However as we understand even according to the Catholic doctrine the Father is not exactly like the ‘Son’. The FatherGod is a perfect God and not a perfect man, while the ‘Son’ is both a perfect man and a perfect god. In that case these are two separate personalities with different characteristics.

Am I right?

Do you agree with me?
Click to expand...
You appear to be having a problem with understanding the Trinity. Welcome to the club. As human beings, we are not equipped to be able to fully understand the mystery of the Holy Trinity. However, as Catholics we accept the Trinity without needing to fully understand it.
I heard a good comparison once…
Does the color blue cease to exist simply because a person who has been without sight his entire life cannot understand the concept? Is it possible to explain to the blind person what the color blue is? We (as “seeing” persons) can understand the concept of color but someone without the necessary abilities (sight) cannot possibly fathom the concept. That however, does not mean that color doesn’t exist. It simply means that in order to understand it, you must posses the God given ability to see it. This is the same type of thing with the Holy Trinity. It exists, but we human beings are incapable of grasping the full understanding because we lack the ability needed to do that.
 
O.S.Luke said:
Uh oh… another schism in the making. Wasn’t 1054 enough?
Click to expand...
Hi

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim.

I don’t understand exactly what you mean by “Wasn’t 1054 enough?”

Would you please explain it for me or someone else, please.

Thanks
 
paarsurrey said:
Hi

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim.

I don’t understand exactly what you mean by “Wasn’t 1054 enough?”

Would you please explain it for me or someone else, please.

Thanks
Click to expand...
In 1054 The Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church split, this is known as the Great Schism to Catholics (I am not sure if the Orthodox have another name for it)

God Bless

Peter
 
LDNCatholic said:
In 1054 The Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church split, this is known as the Great Schism to Catholics (I am not sure if the Orthodox have another name for it)
God Bless
Peter
Click to expand...
Hi

Thank you for explaining for me.
 
Hi

According to the Catholic doctrine the Father is not exactly like the ‘Son’.

The FatherGod is a perfect God and not a perfect man, while the ‘Son’ is both a perfect man and a perfect god. In that case these are two separate personalities with different characteristics.

We may elaborate it further quite logically.

It should be realised that these characteristics are not transferable. There are characters in certain substances which are transferable. For instance, water can become snow and also vapour, without causing a change in the substance or composition of water.

But the sort of differences in the characteristics of God and Christ, where certain characteristics are added to one of them, are irreconcilable. It is not possible for one of them to go through this transformation and still remain indistinguishable from the other. That, again, is a problem and a serious one for that matter, whether Jesus Christ was a perfect god as well as a perfect man. If he was, then he was surely different from the Father who was never a perfect man; not even an imperfect one.

What type of relationship was this? Was the ‘Son’ greater than the Father? If this additional character did not make the ‘Son’ greater then it must have been a defect. In that case a defective ‘Son God’ is not only against the claims of Christianity, but is also against the universal understanding of God.

How, therefore, could anyone comprehend such paradoxical tenets? This is Ahmadia thinking.
alislam.org/library/books/christianity_facts_to_fiction/chapter_1.html#pgfId-1006073

Please don’t mind, for you your religion and for me my religion unless we are convinced otherwise mind and heart.

Thanks
 
paarsurrey said:
Hi

According to the Catholic doctrine the Father is not exactly like the ‘Son’.

The FatherGod is a perfect God and not a perfect man, while the ‘Son’ is both a perfect man and a perfect god. In that case these are two separate personalities with different characteristics.

We may elaborate it further quite logically.

It should be realised that these characteristics are not transferable. There are characters in certain substances which are transferable. For instance, water can become snow and also vapour, without causing a change in the substance or composition of water.

But the sort of differences in the characteristics of God and Christ, where certain characteristics are added to one of them, are irreconcilable. It is not possible for one of them to go through this transformation and still remain indistinguishable from the other. That, again, is a problem and a serious one for that matter, whether Jesus Christ was a perfect god as well as a perfect man. If he was, then he was surely different from the Father who was never a perfect man; not even an imperfect one.

What type of relationship was this? Was the ‘Son’ greater than the Father? If this additional character did not make the ‘Son’ greater then it must have been a defect. In that case a defective ‘Son God’ is not only against the claims of Christianity, but is also against the universal understanding of God.

How, therefore, could anyone comprehend such paradoxical tenets? This is Ahmadia thinking.
alislam.org/library/books/christianity_facts_to_fiction/chapter_1.html#pgfId-1006073

Please don’t mind, for you your religion and for me my religion unless we are convinced otherwise mind and heart.

Thanks
Click to expand...
You ask very thoughtful questions that cannot fully be answered because we can’t totally comprehend God. We believe that God is Father, Son, and Spirit. The three persons are completely united, they are one. Each person is completely God but there are not three Gods. The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Spirit; they are distinct but not separate. The Father, Son, and Spirit are not three parts of God. God the Son took on a human nature which was united to the divine nature. This was neither an addition nor a defect in the perfection of God. How this can be, we don’t understand. Maybe someone else who knows more of Thomas Aquinas’ teachings can give some better insight on this.

God bless you.
 
paarsurrey said:
Hi

There are many problems with the Christian understanding of Jesus, his nature and his relationship with God. From a critical and analytical study of Catholic doctrine, what we understand is that there is a ‘Son of God’, who possesses the characteristics of a perfect man and also that of a perfect god.

However as we understand even according to the Catholic doctrine the Father is not exactly like the ‘Son’. The FatherGod is a perfect God and not a perfect man, while the ‘Son’ is both a perfect man and a perfect god. In that case these are two separate personalities with different characteristics.

Am I right?

Do you agree with me?
Click to expand...
Christians have no problem understanding it. Muslims do. That’s why I am a Roman Catholic Christian and you are a Muslim(no disrespect to you Paar) and please, show your source of “Catholic Doctrine”. That’s not what I was raised to believe. I appreciate your thoughtful dialogue. Thanks Paar!
 
StBenMom said:
Christians have no problem understanding it. Muslims do. That’s why I am a Roman Catholic Christian and you are a Muslim (no disrespect to you Paar) and please, show your source of “Catholic Doctrine”. That’s not what I was raised to believe. I appreciate your thoughtful dialogue. Thanks Paar!
Click to expand...
Hi

Thanks for your response. I cannot quote from any single source, that is my undestanding that I have gathered from discussions here and elsewhere; if you think that is not your belief, then I am sorry to engage you in it. However, one such post kindly see above in the thread:

Post #10 “We believe that God is Father, Son, and Spirit. The three persons are completely united, they are one. Each person is completely God but there are not three Gods. The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Spirit; they are distinct but not separate. The Father, Son, and Spirit are not three parts of God. God the Son took on a human nature which was united to the divine nature. This was neither an addition nor a defect in the perfection of God. How this can be, we don’t understand. Maybe someone else who knows more of Thomas Aquinas’ teachings can give some better insight on this.”

We often see certain perception of the Catholics in the start of the sentence and then negating that in the later part. They say it is a mystery while, sorry, I see them as the Catholic paradoxes.

When we try to find them out in the NTGospels, we don’t see anything written there in straightforward manner. I think it is formed and explained later by some Catholic theologians-um-philosophers, by laying bricks of thoughts one upon the others, later ingrained in the minds of the common Catholics not necessarily having any relationship, in my opinion, in the ScriputresProper or the PracticesProper or the TraditionsProper of Jesus.

I respect your religion and I love Jesus, Mary and the Twelve.

Thanks
 
Claire_from_DE said:
You ask very thoughtful questions that cannot fully be answered because we can’t totally comprehend God. We believe that God is Father, Son, and Spirit. The three persons are completely united, they are one. Each person is completely God but there are not three Gods. The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Spirit; they are distinct but not separate. The Father, Son, and Spirit are not three parts of God. God the Son took on a human nature which was united to the divine nature. This was neither an addition nor a defect in the perfection of God. How this can be, we don’t understand. Maybe someone else who knows more of Thomas Aquinas’ teachings can give some better insight on this.
God bless you.
Click to expand...
Hi

Thank you for praying for me, and I like those freinds who pray for me.

Please see my response to rest of your post vide post # 13 in the thread.

Regards
 
paarsurrey said:
Hi

Thanks for your response. I cannot quote from any single source, that is my undestanding that I have gathered from discussions here and elsewhere; if you think that is not your belief, then I am sorry to engage you in it. However, one such post kindly see above in the thread:

Post #10 “We believe that God is Father, Son, and Spirit. The three persons are completely united, they are one. Each person is completely God but there are not three Gods. The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Spirit; they are distinct but not separate. The Father, Son, and Spirit are not three parts of God. God the Son took on a human nature which was united to the divine nature. This was neither an addition nor a defect in the perfection of God. How this can be, we don’t understand. Maybe someone else who knows more of Thomas Aquinas’ teachings can give some better insight on this.”

We often see certain perception of the Catholics in the start of the sentence and then negating that in the later part. They say it is a mystery while, sorry, I see them as the Catholic paradoxes.

When we try to find them out in the NTGospels, we don’t see anything written there in straightforward manner. I think it is formed and explained later by some Catholic theologians-um-philosophers, by laying bricks of thoughts one upon the others, later ingrained in the minds of the common Catholics not necessarily having any relationship, in my opinion, in the ScriputresProper or the PracticesProper or the TraditionsProper of Jesus.

I respect your religion and I love Jesus, Mary and the Twelve.

Thanks
Click to expand...
Hi Paar!
Thanks for the response. I am sorry if I wasn’t clearer earlier. What I meant was I was raised to believe Catholic Doctrine. My fingers get ahead of me :o I mean no disrespect to you or your faith. As a matter of fact, you have been one of the best examples of Islam around here in a long time! You are right, some things weren’t just “cut and dried” in the NT but that’s why we had the Apostles, the Early Church Fathers (who learned from the Apostles), and the Holy See. To help interpet, explain and such. It wasn’t “explained later by some Catholic theologians-um-philosophers” It’s been passed down directly from God and the Word made flesh. At least that’s how I see it. I really appreciate your thoughtful, peaceful questions. When I see you have posted a question/answer, I always go see what you have to say! I like the fact that we can be of two different faiths but have a lively, friendly discussion about our beliefs. My Muslim friend, Jehanzeb always says: “Why is there so much competition when we will all pass through the same gate”? He and I have discussions like this one all the time and still remain good friends :eek: 😉 I call him “my wise council”. Thanks again Paar! And as I always say to my pal, Jehanzeb:
Asalaam Alykoum!

God bless you!

Prayerfully,

Me:thumbsup:
 
StBenMom said:
Hi Paar!
Thanks for the response. I am sorry if I wasn’t clearer earlier. What I meant was I was raised to believe Catholic Doctrine. My fingers get ahead of me :o I mean no disrespect to you or your faith. As a matter of fact, you have been one of the best examples of Islam around here in a long time! You are right, some things weren’t just “cut and dried” in the NT but that’s why we had the Apostles, the Early Church Fathers (who learned from the Apostles), and the Holy See. To help interpet, explain and such. It wasn’t “explained later by some Catholic theologians-um-philosophers” It’s been passed down directly from God and the Word made flesh. At least that’s how I see it. I really appreciate your thoughtful, peaceful questions. When I see you have posted a question/answer, I always go see what you have to say! I like the fact that we can be of two different faiths but have a lively, friendly discussion about our beliefs. My Muslim friend, Jehanzeb always says: “Why is there so much competition when we will all pass through the same gate”? He and I have discussions like this one all the time and still remain good friends :eek: 😉 I call him “my wise council”. Thanks again Paar! And as I always say to my pal, Jehanzeb:
Asalaam Alykoum!
God bless you!
Prayerfully,
Me:thumbsup:
Click to expand...
Hi

And Wa Ulaikumus Salam

Thanks for a good post. Convey my Salam to your friend Jehanzeb also.

Regards
 
If you read the old testament you will see that God is often conversing with himself etc. So we can say that as far as we humans can understand God, then we see that God can be multi dimensional for want of a better term.

Think of God like the Sun in the heavens. The whole Sun is God but when the Suns rays hit the earth we feel them, now are the suns rays God, yet they appear in different form, we can feel the heat from the sun yet to us it appears to be in differetn form to that of the Sun in the sky, are you willing to say that the warmth we feel from the sun is not the Sun.

Certainly the warmth is generated by the sun, so the warmth is part of the sun yet to us it appears distinct in some way from the sun.

Again I ask you, are you willing to say that the warmth you feel from the suns rays is not the Sun.

Now imgagine the sun had life in it and the rays hit us and make us feel warm, would you say that the rays and warmth are not the sun and therefor not alive.

It is hard and effectively immpossible for us to understand the relationship between God and creation and we are limited to explaining things according to our understanding. That is why I use the analogy of the sun in my example.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top