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bobzills
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More Russian Orthodox Churches have been opened since what is was in 1984.
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fantasy_forever
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pprimeau1976
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I am not very fond of Fr. Gruner.
All he is doing is pushing a personal interpretation on Fatima and expecting the whole Church to abide by it. He nitpicks the Church in how it carried out Mary’s instructions at the 1984 consecration. According to him, the world does not include Russia.
But, if we did exactly what Mary instructed, Gruner wouldn’t like it. Mary said to consecrate Russia to her Immaculate Heart in union with all the bishops of the world. What bishops of the world? Catholic bishops? Orthodox bishops? Anglican bishops? To do exactly what Mary requested, nothing more or less, would require something that has become a curse word to Gruner…ecumenism.:bigyikes:
All he is doing is pushing a personal interpretation on Fatima and expecting the whole Church to abide by it. He nitpicks the Church in how it carried out Mary’s instructions at the 1984 consecration. According to him, the world does not include Russia.
But, if we did exactly what Mary instructed, Gruner wouldn’t like it. Mary said to consecrate Russia to her Immaculate Heart in union with all the bishops of the world. What bishops of the world? Catholic bishops? Orthodox bishops? Anglican bishops? To do exactly what Mary requested, nothing more or less, would require something that has become a curse word to Gruner…ecumenism.:bigyikes:
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saint_rafael
Guest
All the bishops of the world means all the Catholic bishops. There is only one true Church.But, if we did exactly what Mary instructed, Gruner wouldn’t like it. Mary said to consecrate Russia to her Immaculate Heart in union with all the bishops of the world. What bishops of the world? Catholic bishops? Orthodox bishops? Anglican bishops? To do exactly what Mary requested, nothing more or less, would require something that has become a curse word to Gruner…ecumenism.:bigyikes:
The Orthodox bishops are schismatic and not part of the one true Church. They are reprobates.
The Anglicans don’t have bishops because they don’t have a valid priesthood. Anglican orders are invalid. There is no apostolic succession and they are not a church. They are men who play dress up and conduct liturgical services.
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Joe17
Guest
Bobzills,
Orthodox churches are not capable of spreading the Roman Catholic faith, their liturgies are objectively displeasing to God, and they would have disagreements over the primacy, no divorce(allowing it up to 3 times), etc.
The Communists may have changed some tactics to get along, but abortion is still astronomically high(just one is a horror, but you get my point). We must pray for this apostasy to end and for a Catholic Pope to do the right things with his bishops.
Joe
Orthodox churches are not capable of spreading the Roman Catholic faith, their liturgies are objectively displeasing to God, and they would have disagreements over the primacy, no divorce(allowing it up to 3 times), etc.
The Communists may have changed some tactics to get along, but abortion is still astronomically high(just one is a horror, but you get my point). We must pray for this apostasy to end and for a Catholic Pope to do the right things with his bishops.
Joe
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Ave_Maria_1
Guest
“Cardinal Ratzinger” would be the VICAR of CHRIST on earth, His holines, Pope Benedict XVI. To name call the Holy Father would not please Our Lord, I think. Calling everyone else liars and Fr. Gruner the only true light just does not cut it.As said above, cardinals and bishops have lied. That would include Cardinals Ratzinger and Archbishop Bertone.
Joe
Father Gruner is acting independently as far as I can discern and has no faculties. So who do we follow? A disobedient independent or the Holy Father, the successor to St. Peter?
St. Maximilian Kolbe said we cannot err in following the directions of our superiors, unless it is a sin to do so. Even when our superiors err, the error is on them. Obedience is the hallmark of a saint–not striking out and starting your own movement or church in defiance.
Yes, we all know (too well) the modernist invasion of the Church and certainly many have had to look past their own bishop to see what the norms or teachings of the Holy Father and the Magisterium are.
I cannot in good conscience follow a maverick like Fr. Gruner. What he has written and said does not even dovetail with what Sr. Lucia said and wrote. She was faithful to the Church all her days…
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pprimeau1976
Guest
How are we to know that our Lady intended only Catholic bishops? She never specified. Just like she never said “only Russia”.All the bishops of the world means all the Catholic bishops. There is only one true Church.
The Orthodox bishops are schismatic and not part of the one true Church. They are reprobates.
The Anglicans don’t have bishops because they don’t have a valid priesthood. Anglican orders are invalid. There is no apostolic succession and they are not a church. They are men who play dress up and conduct liturgical services.
Regarding the Orthodox, Orthodox bishops are still bishops by apostolic succession. You are right about the Anglican bishops.
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Silver_Thread
Guest
You missed the point my firend.More Russian Orthodox Churches have been opened since what is was in 1984.
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SongofShepherds
Guest
“You missed the point my firend.” - SilverThread
Okay, I followed the conversation, this is only an article with opinions as well but it does state some issues:
Zenit reports: zenit.org/article-19733?l=english (article from last year) See full article.
"The 61-year-old archbishop further affirmed that Mary’s message was significant for Russia also in an ecumenical sense.
He said: "Our Lady of Fatima spoke of the conversion of Russia to God, she didn’t say that it had to be exclusively Catholic.
"As the Catholic Church, we help our Orthodox brethren and we work together to continue and develop dialogue between us.
…
Martyrs’ blood
According to Julio Loredo, the coordinator of the Apostles of Fatima for the Light Over the East organization, the faith in Russia is vibrant.
In Russia, “I saw a faith that was much stronger that that of many people in the West because it is watered in blood,” he told ZENIT.
“Blood is strong, it hurts, but what is bathed in blood will grow. In Russia, I see the fruit of the blood of martyrs which was shed for many years, and the faith seems strong and very enthusiastic,” he added.
Russia is in conversion? Maybe…
"Some reports have also suggested that Pope John Paul II did not fulfill the requirements of the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary - a consecration that had been requested by the Virgin Mary in her appearances at Fatima. Once again, Sister Lucia said that these reports are entirely false. “I have already said that the consecration that Our Lady desired was accomplished in 1984, and was accepted in heaven,” she insisted. - theotokos.org.uk/pages/cathnews/fatima/secret2.html
Time line from the World Apostolate of Fatima, India, but really, I wish it had just directly related Fatima events. - fatima-messenger.com/Apostolate/Histperespect.htm
Perhaps loopholes can be found to say “where is the period of peace?”, Russia converted?
I’m into Fatima, but it is not my total faith. There has rarely been a period of peace in the world. But there may be enough to say, Russia is in conversion.
I’m wearing my Scapular, I pray my daily Rosary, I’ve made devotions, imperfect I am… so I would hope other people so concerned about this conversion would do the same and maybe fast and donate funds to such actions as indeed some charities have done.
To this, I read, “well, the Indians of Mexico were converted en masse when Our Lady of Guadeloupe came and it did not take 17 years” or whatever figure may be used, per the James Akin and Surengenis (? spelling) debated at International Catholic Apologetics (one poster did not post a link previously, so possibly, out of politeness to this site, neither do I so one can search it out). This is a good point.
EWTN discusses in depth: ewtn.com/fatima/apparitions/Third_Secret/fatima.htm
There has been a lot more peace in Poland, Czech Republic, East Germany, Slovakia, Baltic Republics and most of the other Republics in the former USSR than before. Peace in the world as an absolute?
Okay, I followed the conversation, this is only an article with opinions as well but it does state some issues:
Zenit reports: zenit.org/article-19733?l=english (article from last year) See full article.
"The 61-year-old archbishop further affirmed that Mary’s message was significant for Russia also in an ecumenical sense.
He said: "Our Lady of Fatima spoke of the conversion of Russia to God, she didn’t say that it had to be exclusively Catholic.
"As the Catholic Church, we help our Orthodox brethren and we work together to continue and develop dialogue between us.
…
Martyrs’ blood
According to Julio Loredo, the coordinator of the Apostles of Fatima for the Light Over the East organization, the faith in Russia is vibrant.
In Russia, “I saw a faith that was much stronger that that of many people in the West because it is watered in blood,” he told ZENIT.
“Blood is strong, it hurts, but what is bathed in blood will grow. In Russia, I see the fruit of the blood of martyrs which was shed for many years, and the faith seems strong and very enthusiastic,” he added.
Russia is in conversion? Maybe…
"Some reports have also suggested that Pope John Paul II did not fulfill the requirements of the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary - a consecration that had been requested by the Virgin Mary in her appearances at Fatima. Once again, Sister Lucia said that these reports are entirely false. “I have already said that the consecration that Our Lady desired was accomplished in 1984, and was accepted in heaven,” she insisted. - theotokos.org.uk/pages/cathnews/fatima/secret2.html
Time line from the World Apostolate of Fatima, India, but really, I wish it had just directly related Fatima events. - fatima-messenger.com/Apostolate/Histperespect.htm
Perhaps loopholes can be found to say “where is the period of peace?”, Russia converted?
I’m into Fatima, but it is not my total faith. There has rarely been a period of peace in the world. But there may be enough to say, Russia is in conversion.
I’m wearing my Scapular, I pray my daily Rosary, I’ve made devotions, imperfect I am… so I would hope other people so concerned about this conversion would do the same and maybe fast and donate funds to such actions as indeed some charities have done.
To this, I read, “well, the Indians of Mexico were converted en masse when Our Lady of Guadeloupe came and it did not take 17 years” or whatever figure may be used, per the James Akin and Surengenis (? spelling) debated at International Catholic Apologetics (one poster did not post a link previously, so possibly, out of politeness to this site, neither do I so one can search it out). This is a good point.
EWTN discusses in depth: ewtn.com/fatima/apparitions/Third_Secret/fatima.htm
There has been a lot more peace in Poland, Czech Republic, East Germany, Slovakia, Baltic Republics and most of the other Republics in the former USSR than before. Peace in the world as an absolute?
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SongofShepherds
Guest
Here is some mainstream(?) media analysis of Gruner: possibly useful to read. suck.com/daily/2001/02/09/nc_index3.html : The writer seems well informed, the article is not overly irreverent, could be better in that way but it has good information and doesn’t go overboard too much. I don’t care for the websites name either.
"…The Fatima Center is now the most prominent and energetic Fatima group on the continent; the Crusader claims a circulation of over a million; the group broadcasts weekly television and daily programs; according to Cuneo, the apostolate’s budget came in at $5 million per year during the 1990s. "
…
"…More to the point, if the Virgin Mary herself comes down from Heaven to deliver a message, shouldn’t that take precedence over the word of any pope or cardinal?
Not according to the “worthy of belief” category the church has worked out for Mary revelations; under this system, Mary messages are classed as optional beliefs that have no effect on one’s faith. But for Gruner and the legions of old ladies who follow him (the people who actually account for the “popularity” Garry Wills laments), this is a lawyerly loophole, the kind of thing a Freemason might come up with, and the Fatima Crusaders speak contemptuously of fellow Catholics — some of them even high Vatican officials! — who “make no secret” of the fact that they doubt the story of Fatima."
"…The Fatima Center is now the most prominent and energetic Fatima group on the continent; the Crusader claims a circulation of over a million; the group broadcasts weekly television and daily programs; according to Cuneo, the apostolate’s budget came in at $5 million per year during the 1990s. "
…
"…More to the point, if the Virgin Mary herself comes down from Heaven to deliver a message, shouldn’t that take precedence over the word of any pope or cardinal?
Not according to the “worthy of belief” category the church has worked out for Mary revelations; under this system, Mary messages are classed as optional beliefs that have no effect on one’s faith. But for Gruner and the legions of old ladies who follow him (the people who actually account for the “popularity” Garry Wills laments), this is a lawyerly loophole, the kind of thing a Freemason might come up with, and the Fatima Crusaders speak contemptuously of fellow Catholics — some of them even high Vatican officials! — who “make no secret” of the fact that they doubt the story of Fatima."
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bobzills
Guest
This is what I have been told, that Catholics are not obligated to believe in Fatima.… Mary messages are classed as optional beliefs that have no effect on one’s faith.
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wacked
Guest
I think it’s a given that when our Lady is speaking of “Bishops” She is referring to Catholic bishops. Additionally, there is some context supporting this - Mary asked that the “pope make the consecration in union with all the bishops…” Since Non-Catholic bishops are either *not Catholic *to begin with, or lacking any sort of ecclesiastical union with the pope, their participation would be a non-sequitor.How are we to know that our Lady intended only Catholic bishops? She never specified.
Nor did she specify Russia plus another, or any other country, or ask for the consecration of “The whole World”. The fact is our Lady asked for one country - Russia - no more, no less.Just like she never said “only Russia”.
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SongofShepherds
Guest
The above article is a few years old, I don’t think they still run the TV show.
Funding, even if an awful lot, is not too bothersome when one can say, well, perhaps his mission is being blessed and he is getting some extra help.
But on the other hand, we will see mail pitches coming out requesting money and maybe the Fr. Gruner faction looking at what other controversies they can write about.
I am glad there are some participants informing us on the issue. It seems open ended, even when one can read more negativism on Gruner at Unity Publishing.
Just how far does the Church go to fullfill the request and it has done it some many times already, previously to the 1982 or '84 consecration and again since.
Funding, even if an awful lot, is not too bothersome when one can say, well, perhaps his mission is being blessed and he is getting some extra help.
But on the other hand, we will see mail pitches coming out requesting money and maybe the Fr. Gruner faction looking at what other controversies they can write about.
I am glad there are some participants informing us on the issue. It seems open ended, even when one can read more negativism on Gruner at Unity Publishing.
Just how far does the Church go to fullfill the request and it has done it some many times already, previously to the 1982 or '84 consecration and again since.
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