Father won't attend daughter's wedding

[agapewolf]

*I’m a little confused…there was a thread recently, can’t locate it now…but recently, that was written by a male poster, who is the father of a bride to be. I think that she wanted him to walk her down the aisle of a non Catholic wedding, and I think (?) people here said it would be fine, as long as he wasn’t ‘in’ the wedding? Now, I’m reading that the father in question in this thread, shouldn’t attend this wedding because it is going to take place outside of the Church. It seems conflicting…can someone clarify for me? I’m not confused on the fact that the girl in this post is going to married invalidly…that, I get. What I don’t get is how the dad would be sinning by merely attending the ceremony. Thanks. *

You are right, yes, canon law allows for such a decision. However, this father (who we don’t know and are only hearing 2nd hand about) has made a decision perfectly within his discretion.

 

[whatevergirl]

You are right, yes, canon law allows for such a decision. However, this father (who we don’t know and are only hearing 2nd hand about) has made a decision perfectly within his discretion.

Ok, thank you, but would he be sinning if he attended the wedding? (in this case, in this thread)

 

[Thomas63116]

*I’m a little confused…there was a thread recently, can’t locate it now…but recently, that was written by a male poster, who is the father of a bride to be. I think that she wanted him to walk her down the aisle of a non Catholic wedding, and I think (?) people here said it would be fine, as long as he wasn’t ‘in’ the wedding? Now, I’m reading that the father in question in this thread, shouldn’t attend this wedding because it is going to take place outside of the Church. It seems conflicting…can someone clarify for me? I’m not confused on the fact that the girl in this post is going to married invalidly…that, I get. What I don’t get is how the dad would be sinning by merely attending the ceremony. Thanks. *

There is no “black and white” answer on this. It is a question of prudential judgement whether one should attend a particular wedding that the church considers invalid.

 

[StJoan_ismygal]

Because it isn’t a wedding. It’s a “pretend” show, but not a real wedding, since the girl is bound by canon law.

He would be helping someone sin if he were to “support” this.

Is there no leeway or understanding to be given when a person’s faith and trust in the Church is SO DAMAGED? Is she really making a free, unfettered, truly informed choice to violate canon law? Or is she acting upon flawed reasoning caused by her parents’ utter failure to model God’s love, care, and compassion to her as supposedly-devout Catholics? Her parents made it practically impossible for her to trust the Church, see any good from it, or to think it should have any jurisdiction in her life. Her current state of thought, feeling, and belief, I think, makes it impossible to hold her to full account for a sin in this case. Ever heard of mitigation of culpability? Is she even educated on Church marriage laws? Can she, with her life experience, possibly be receptive to such instruction?

I pray that, over time, her faith will grow and she might realize her parents were flawed examples, and that they are not the Church. Because we, as parents, ARE the Church to our kids in many critical ways. Maybe someday she’ll have a convalidation or radical sanation… with a Hindu husband, I think probably the latter. She has to go on her faith journey at her own speed and in her own way.

The father who helped wreck her faith and trust in the Church and its members has no business at all now chastising her and refusing to attend her wedding, on the grounds that she’s not being “Catholic enough.” He should work on that beam in his own eye first.

People can divorce and not drag it out for years, not split up siblings, not drag their kids through a grinder. When parents choose to do those things, they’ll have to accept the price that comes from it.

If I were this girl, I would have laughed in his face when he criticized my lack of obedience to the Church. And told him to call me when he had something to say to me that he actually had any business saying!

 

[whatevergirl]

There is no “black and white” answer on this. It is a question of prudential judgement whether one should attend a particular wedding that the church considers invalid.

*I understand that part, but earlier in the thread, I believe the father in question here said…I would be sinning (or looking like I condone) the wedding, if I attend. Would the Church consider any Catholic who attends a non Catholic wedding, as sinful? (let me rephrase…attending a wedding where one person is Catholic, but marrying invalidly)

I have attended weddings like that, not many, but a few…my nephew for example, a few years ago, married a Presbyterian in her church. Not his. He was baptized and raised Catholic…so, was I in a state of sin by attending the ceremony?*

 

[agapewolf]

Is there no leeway or understanding to be given when a person’s faith and trust in the Church is SO DAMAGED? Is she really making a free, unfettered, truly informed choice to violate canon law? Or is she acting upon flawed reasoning caused by her parents’ utter failure to model God’s love, care, and compassion to her as supposedly-devout Catholics? Her parents made it practically impossible for her to trust the Church, see any good from it, or to think it should have any jurisdiction in her life. Her current state of thought, feeling, and belief, I think, makes it impossible to hold her to full account for a sin in this case. Ever heard of mitigation of culpability?

I pray that, over time, her faith will grow and she might realize her parents were flawed examples, and the they are not the Church. And maybe she’ll have a convalidation or radical sanation… with a Hindu husband, I think probably the latter. She has to go one her faith journey at her own speed and in her own way.

The father who helped wreck her faith and trust in the Church and its members has no business at all now chastising her and refusing to attend her wedding, on the grounds that she’s not being “Catholic enough.” He should work on that beam in his own eye first.

People can divorce and not drag it out for years, not split up siblings, not drag their kids through a grinder. When parents choose to do those things, they’ll have to accept the price that comes from it.

If I were this girl, I would have laughed in his face when he criticized my lack of obedience to the Church. And told him to call me when he had something to say to me that he actually had any business saying!

You approaching this from the judgement side. There is no need to be snarky. No one is making judgements on the girl, or her culpability. Whether she is making a full knowledge judgement getting married outside the church or not, that does NOT change the spiritual dimensions of truth. The truth would be that she is bound by catholic canon law and it would not be a valid marriage. Therefore, creating soul ties to a person in a sexual relationship that she isn’t married to.

You are passing a lot of judgement on to the father here also. We don’t know the whole story.

 

[Thomas63116]

Is there no leeway or understanding to be given when a person’s faith and trust in the Church is SO DAMAGED? Is she really making a free, unfettered, truly informed choice to violate canon law? Or is she acting upon flawed reasoning caused by her parents’ utter failure to model God’s love, care, and compassion to her as supposedly-devout Catholics? Her parents made it practically impossible for her to trust the Church, see any good from it, or to think it should have any jurisdiction in her life. Her current state of thought, feeling, and belief, I think, makes it impossible to hold her to full account for a sin in this case. Ever heard of mitigation of culpability? Is she even educated on Church marriage laws? Can she, with her life experience, possibly be receptive to such instruction?

All of these circumstances could certainly mitigate her responsibility. But it doesn’t change the objective reality that her marriage would not be valid.

Frankly, the way the dad has approached this has not been helpful. This wedding is still months away. There is plenty of time for her to make arrangements to have the marriage conducted in a way that would be validly recognized by the Church. Instead of helping her make that happen, dad seems to have simply said “I can’t go.”

I pray that, over time, her faith will grow and she might realize her parents were flawed examples, and the they are not the Church.

That’s a good prayer, and I think we should all join you in that.

And maybe she’ll have a convalidation or radical sanation… with a Hindu husband, I think probably the latter.

Again, there is plenty of time to get this worked out ahead of time, if she is willing to do so. I hope she will find a caring and understanding priest who can help guide her through the process, not only through her marriage but towards a more healthy and active faith life as a Catholic.

 

[StJoan_ismygal]

You are passing a lot of judgement on to the father here also. We don’t know the whole story.

I’ve got a full clip in reserve for the mother, too, but so far we haven’t heard that she is giving her daughter any grief over this. Divorce takes two, nasty divorces take two people too damn selfish to do right by their kids, in most cases.

Sometimes I wonder if people don’t get too legalistic and refuse to trust that God can and will work in His time, and that we need to do the best we can with hurt souls, but then leave them to God. He will find them.

Thomas, your post is spot on! He could be helping her. Instead he is just being unhelpful and frankly, mean. What girl doesn’t want Daddy at her wedding? Even when he is massively flawed. It’s his seeming cold-heartedness, Pharisaical legalistic criticism, and repeated refusal to model God’s love to which I am reacting. Some people seem to think all there is to Catholicism is following lots of rules, and looking down upon those who don’t, can’t, or don’t know.

 

[kage_ar]

I understand that part, but earlier in the thread, I believe the father in question here said…I would be sinning (or looking like I condone) the wedding, if I attend. Would the Church consider any Catholic who attends a non Catholic wedding, as sinful? (let me rephrase…attending a wedding where one person is Catholic, but marrying invalidly)

I have attended weddings like that, not many, but a few…my nephew for example, a few years ago, married a Presbyterian in her church. Not his. He was baptized and raised Catholic…so, was I in a state of sin by attending the ceremony?

The sin in question is the sin of Scandal. As we all know, this sin could be mortal or veinal depending on the other two conditions - but, scandal is always grave matter.

From the Catechism:

[2284](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/2284.htm’) Scandal is an attitude or behavior which leads another to do evil. The person who gives scandal becomes his neighbor’s tempter. He damages virtue and integrity; he may even draw his brother into spiritual death. Scandal is a grave offense if by deed or omission another is deliberately led into a grave offense.

 

[Thomas63116]

*I understand that part, but earlier in the thread, I believe the father in question here said…I would be sinning (or looking like I condone) the wedding, if I attend. Would the Church consider any Catholic who attends a non Catholic wedding, as sinful? (let me rephrase…attending a wedding where one person is Catholic, but marrying invalidly)
*

There are people here who will argue that this always (or almost always) constitutes the sin of scandal. The father in this example seems to believe this. But there is no difinitive Church teaching I am aware of that establishes this. Michelle Arnold has given answers on the Ask an Apologist threads that suggest attending an invalid whedding can be acceptable in some situations.
whatevergirl;5644513:

I have attended weddings like that, not many, but a few…my nephew for example, a few years ago, married a Presbyterian in her church. Not his. He was baptized and raised Catholic…so, was I in a state of sin by attending the ceremony?

Sin of course requires knowledge that what one is doing is wrong. But is it objectively wrong to attend such a wedding? Again, I don’t know of any teaching that would clearly establish that. And, in the particular case you mention, your nephew may have received a dispensation to allow him to marry in her church.

 

[kage_ar]

Sin of course requires knowledge that what one is doing is wrong. .

Sin is sin. The difference between mortal and venial sin depends on the knowledge and consent.

But is it objectively wrong to attend such a wedding? Again, I don’t know of any teaching that would clearly establish that.

Let’s say that tomorrow you rec an invitation from your 24 year old sister/daughter/neice/cousin, we will call her Sally.

She is a good person, loves her neighbor and gives to charity.

She has been dating Joe for 2 years now, a nice young man.

The beautiful engraved paper says…

"Sally and Joe

Out of all the people on earth, God has brought us to each other.

Because of our love we have decided to begin having sex with each other.

Please join us as we celebrate our the first time in a lifetime of our sexual relationship, a reception and dancing will follow the ceremony."

Would you go?

 

[StJoan_ismygal]

tongue in cheek

Isn’t that kind of what a wedding is (ideally)?

 

[Thomas63116]

Sometimes I wonder if people don’t get too legalistic and refuse to trust that God can and will work in His time, and that we need to do the best we can with hurt souls, but then leave them to God. He will find them.

Thomas, your post is spot on! He could be helping her. Instead he is just being unhelpful and frankly, mean. What girl doesn’t want Daddy at her wedding? Even when he is massively flawed. It’s his seeming cold-heartedness, Pharisaical legalistic criticism, and repeated refusal to model God’s love to which I am reacting. Some people seem to think all there is to Catholicism is following lots of rules, and looking down upon those who don’t, can’t, or don’t know.

The approach I have always tried to take is to remember that the Church has rules pertaining to marriage for a reason. . .namely to ensure that people who enter marriage are free to do so and that they are properly prepared for the responsibility that they are taking on, that they understand the nature of marriage as a Sacrament in the catholc traditions, etc. Sometimes Catholics can fall into the trap of elevating the rules to an end in themselves, rather than a means to an end.

When someone who is bound by Canon law on marriage is not following the rules, there is usually something deeper going on. Either they are adrift in the practice of their faith, hurt by some bad experience with the church, or simply unaware of what is required of them and why the church places such importance on the requirements. Throwing a Canon Law citation at them and telling them they have to do it this way or else is generally not going to be helpful. You have to guide them towards doing the right thing but take into account where they are now.

Sometimes I wonder if people don’t get too legalistic and refuse to trust that God can and will work in His time, and that we need to do the best we can with hurt souls, but then leave them to God. He will find them.

Very true. And when we treat them with love, understanding and respect, while helping them understand the Church’s teachings, we can hopefully be an instrument by which God finds them.

 

[whatevergirl]

Sin is sin. The difference between mortal and venial sin depends on the knowledge and consent.

Let’s say that tomorrow you rec an invitation from your 24 year old sister/daughter/neice/cousin, we will call her Sally.

She is a good person, loves her neighbor and gives to charity.

She has been dating Joe for 2 years now, a nice young man.

The beautiful engraved paper says…

"Sally and Joe

Out of all the people on earth, God has brought us to each other.

Because of our love we have decided to begin having sex with each other.

Please join us as we celebrate our the first time in a lifetime of our sexual relationship, a reception and dancing will follow the ceremony."

Would you go?

ha, good point! So, I guess it was sinful for me to attend my Catholic nephew’s wedding that took place in a Presbyterian Church. I did try to talk to him marrying in the Church, and/or having their marriage convalidated…but, it was like talking to a wall.

 

[jmcrae]

Help me understand this situation. Is it a sin to attend a non-catholic wedding??? That seems CRAZY to me.

It is a sin to attend the wedding of a Catholic (your cousin is a Catholic because she was baptized in the Catholic Church) who is not being married according to the laws of the Church.

Didn’t Jesus love everyone? Including the non-Jewish Samaritans?

The fact that it is a sin for a Catholic to be married outside the Church does not mean that Jesus doesn’t love her; nor does it mean that the people who are not able in good conscience to attend don’t love her. In fact, their love for her is a higher kind of love, that seeks what is best for her, rather than what is easy for her.

 

[whatevergirl]

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=368356

Here’s the thread I was referring to! It seems like people are telling the dad in that thread to attend the wedding, and that it would not be sinful. I am confused…please clarify if you would. Some posters are saying that only if a Catholic is IN the wedding party, would it be sinful, but not just to be in attendance, so how does this thread differ? I don’t mean to go astray, but I am a little confused…thanks

 

[whatevergirl]

In particular, look at post 2 and 5 in that linked thread. So does the Catholic Church prohibit Catholics from attending wedding ceremonies that produce invalid marriages? (A baptized Catholic marrying outside of the Church)

 

[jmcrae]

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=368356

Here’s the thread I was referring to! It seems like people are telling the dad in that thread to attend the wedding, and that it would not be sinful. I am confused…please clarify if you would. Some posters are saying that only if a Catholic is IN the wedding party, would it be sinful, but not just to be in attendance, so how does this thread differ? I don’t mean to go astray, but I am a little confused…thanks

A wedding between non-Catholics where neither party has ever been Catholic is a valid wedding, and a wedding between two people where they used to be Catholic but left the Church by a formal declaration would also be valid.

The circumstance of the other thread is that the girl has already formally rejected the Church (she is no longer considered by the Church to be a Catholic), whereas in this case, the girl still considers herself a Catholic.

 

[agapewolf]

In particular, look at post 2 and 5 in that linked thread. So does the Catholic Church prohibit Catholics from attending wedding ceremonies that produce invalid marriages? (A baptized Catholic marrying outside of the Church)

As it was stated before, there’s a little gray area. A parent may decide for the sake of a relationship with their child to attend the wedding, or a sibling of someone, but they may not be in an official capacity. This should be done with the couple’s knowledge of their “disapproval”, so it cannot be scandalous where they think they approve and condone the situation. This is all in hope that by salvaging the relationship they may one day hopefully come back to the faith.

IN this particular thread circumstance, this father has already made the decision. Some of us are defending his right to make that decision in this situation. This man is in his 70’s and is rightly worried about the state of his soul.

For your particular situation, you didn’t know it was wrong, and it seems that you did what you could to talk to them about it. None of us can know the details of your particular situation, but perhaps you want to bring it to confession.

 

[whatevergirl]

As it was stated before, there’s a little gray area. A parent may decide for the sake of a relationship with their child to attend the wedding, or a sibling of someone, but they may not be in an official capacity. This should be done with the couple’s knowledge of their “disapproval”, so it cannot be scandalous where they think they approve and condone the situation. This is all in hope that by salvaging the relationship they may one day hopefully come back to the faith.

IN this particular thread circumstance, this father has already made the decision. Some of us are defending his right to make that decision in this situation. This man is in his 70’s and is rightly worried about the state of his soul.

For your particular situation, you didn’t know it was wrong, and it seems that you did what you could to talk to them about it. None of us can know the details of your particular situation, but perhaps you want to bring it to confession.

Ok, very well then. Thank you–and I will discuss this with a priest! I truly didn’t ‘know’…sadly. I mean I knew that my nephew shouldn’t be marrying outside of the Church, but beyond that, I didn’t see my attendance as sinful…I always thought if one participated in the wedding ceremony, that is where sin could come in. I appreciate your reply.