T
Thomas63116
Guest
Can you give me a link to any church document that states this?
- Status
T
Thomas63116
Guest
While I think I understand your point (an invalid marriage is a public aknowledgement of a sexual relationship between two people who in the eyes of the Church should not be engaging in such a relationship) your example would seem to reduce marriage to nothing more than its sexual dimension. I think there may be something more, even in a presumptively invalid marriage.
L
Liberanosamalo
Guest
I beg to differ. A divorce doesn’t take two people to make it nasty. It just takes one really mean person and a nasty lawyer to embolden them. When you have children, it draws out the relationship for a decade or more beyond the divorce. Every encounter with that person becomes a chance for them to denigrate you or humiliate you. If the marriage ended on bad terms (as usually they do) it’s hard to expect good treatment during a divorce or the ensuing years.
I hate to keep using my own tedious example, but a recent occurrence illustrates how one person can be tarred unfairly. We don’t really know if BOTH parents are responsible here or not, or who is at fault…The OP didn’t give us that much info. I had to take a child in the dark to an apartment complex where xh recently moved so she could get school books. He won’t give me the gate code. Power trip.
So I can drop her off and have her walk in the dark (she’s too young to do that in a strange neighborhood) through the parking lot all the way back to rear of the complex, or I can have her punch in the gate code and go in and wait in the car. Long story short. Dark. Night. Waiting at foot of his steps. He drives up and demands to know what I’m doing there. Waiting for her to get stuff. Where was he? He threatens to call the police and have me arrested for “trespassing.” I apparently don’t belong there. Try being treated like this for a decade. Try not to respond. Hope someday your children don’t accuse YOU of being selfish and making things miserable just because you reacted to unreasonableness. Sadly, I’m the parent trying to raise the kids in the faith. It’s hard enough. Divorce makes it harder. In this example, I can’t believe two “devout” Catholics neglected to get her confirmed. Whatever happened in the marriage, were I her parent, I’d be more worried that she wasn’t prepared to be married herself and have a happy life. I agree with the poster who said he should use this time to advise her on ways to get the paperwork done correctly. In a loving gentle manner. Having said that, who among us accepts a wedding invitation on the proviso that we doublecheck the paperwork and make sure it’s all filed in proper form? How DO you bring that question up?
I feel sad for that girl whose own faith was so damaged by her upbringing. It makes me scared for my own children and what will happen in the future despite my own best efforts.
F
FastLearner
Guest
First of all, do you know for a fact that your nephew did not have a dispensation? If it’s possible that he could have a dispensation, the charitable assumption would be that he did and thus that the wedding was presumably valid.
If you know for a fact that he did not have a dispensation and that the wedding was presumably invalid:
The argument about whether or not it’s a sin to attend depends on your assumption of whether or not an attendee implicitly supports the marriage by being at the wedding. Personally, I believe that if you attend a wedding, even if you’re just sitting in the back of the room, you’re approving of the wedding. Therefore, attending a wedding that is presumably invalid would be scandal. However, there are others that believe that just being in the same room as the wedding is not an implicit approval of the wedding. Thus, being in the room is not scandal. That is where the disagreement (and confusion) seems to lie.
Others seem to confuse the argument by trying to make an emotional appeal: if you don’t attend, it might cause severe hardship to the couple. I really don’t buy this argument. If you truly believe what she’s doing is wrong, and you truly believe that her soul is in danger because of it, how could you support it?
K
kage_ar
Guest
In the eyes of the Church - according to the law God set up, an invalid marriage is just that - two people deciding to fornicate.
K
kage_ar
Guest
They cannot give you such a document because it does not exist.
There is also not a document that says a Catholic should not go to a strip club nor one that tells Catholics not to drive the get away car for a bank robbery or that says not to go buy herion for your son who is strung out.
What the Church does say is to avoid the appearance of evil, to not cooperate with sin and that scandal is grave matter.
T
Thomas63116
Guest
If two people simply want to fornicate they would most likely do just that. The fact that they choose to enter into a marriage - albeit invalidly according to the Church’s laws - suggests some type of lifetime commitment on their part.
From Pope John Paul’s Apostolic Exhortation Familiaris Consortio:
- There are increasing cases of Catholics who for ideological or practical reasons, prefer to contract a merely civil marriage, and who reject or at least defer religious marriage. Their situation cannot of course be likened to that of people simply living together without any bond at all, because in the present case there is at least a certain commitment to a properly-defined and probably stable state of life, even though the possibility of a future divorce is often present in the minds of those entering a civil marriage. By seeking public recognition of their bond on the part of the State, such couples show that they are ready to accept not only its advantages but also its obligations. Nevertheless, not even this situation is acceptable to the Church.
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_jp-ii_exh_19811122_familiaris-consortio_en.html
In my mind, the goal should be to help bring such people back to an active and consistent practice of their faith. As a family member or friend, how one advances that goal will vary depending on the circumstances, the relationship to the individual, and what issues that individual is facing.
T
Thomas63116
Guest
The examples you give are cases where there is really no dispute that a Catholic should not do the thing in question. In the case of whether to attend an invalid marriage, even the AAA forum apologists seem to suggest that there are situations where it may be acceptable.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=167154
I have always particularly like this quote from Michelle Arnold from the link above:
“One rule of thumb that may be helpful in making such decisions might be to ask yourself if you believe the couple is doing the best that they can to act honorably and according to the truth that they have.”
I don’t want to appear to dismiss the possibility of scandal in deciding to attend a presumptively invalid wedding. I think this is especially a concern if one has children or other family members who may be left with the impression that you approve of a marriage that is not conducted according to the Church’s laws and may then decide it is OK for them to do the same thing. There are a lot of factors that need to be balanced in deciding how to handle a situation like this.
However, I am disturbed when people suggest a blanket prohibition when one does not exist.
W
whatevergirl
Guest
*Yep, agree. But, I think that the emotional fall out for the dad in question to not show at his daughter’s wedding, is another thing that comes into play, and why many do attend weddings despite the fact that they are partial to scandal. So, then you agree with the father in this thread, then, I’m assuming. *First of all, do you know for a fact that your nephew did not have a dispensation? If it’s possible that he could have a dispensation, the charitable assumption would be that he did and thus that the wedding was presumably valid.
If you know for a fact that he did not have a dispensation and that the wedding was presumably invalid:
Yeah, I know for a fact. The problem is, he doesn’t practice his faith now, nor did he then…he lived with his now wife, back then…so my sister said it wasn’t something that ínterested him…(getting married in the Church) They are going through an awful divorce now (is divorce ever not awful?) so if he married in the Catholic Church, would he need to have a decree of nullity for the first marriage?
The argument about whether or not it’s a sin to attend depends on your assumption of whether or not an attendee implicitly supports the marriage by being at the wedding. Personally, I believe that if you attend a wedding, even if you’re just sitting in the back of the room, you’re approving of the wedding. Therefore, attending a wedding that is presumably invalid would be scandal. However, there are others that believe that just being in the same room as the wedding is not an implicit approval of the wedding. Thus, being in the room is not scandal. That is where the disagreement (and confusion) seems to lie.
*I tend to agree with you now, but back then, I was cloudy on the issue, I hadn’t thought of my own culpability in attending my nephew’s wedding.
Others seem to confuse the argument by trying to make an emotional appeal: if you don’t attend, it might cause severe hardship to the couple. I really don’t buy this argument. If you truly believe what she’s doing is wrong, and you truly believe that her soul is in danger because of it, how could you support it?
N
Norseman82
Guest
Actually, in the “olden days”, there was a prohibition against attending such weddings, and I think it also extended to giving gifts. I recall reading about it years ago; it may have been in a Baltimore Catechism, but I am having a hard time finding it online.In particular, look at post 2 and 5 in that linked thread.So does the Catholic Church prohibit Catholics from attending wedding ceremonies that produce invalid marriages? (A baptized Catholic marrying outside of the Church)
W
whatevergirl
Guest
Oh–Please try to find something, would you? You know, in our guts, (maybe that is our conscience/Holy Spirit?) it feels wrong when you attend such a wedding. I remember sitting at my nephew’s wedding thinking…why is he doing this? (marrying outside the Church AND marrying her, but that is another topic altogether lol)
N
Norseman82
Guest
I just want to let you know that I haven’t forgotten about your request.
I have spent a lot of time looking for an online link, but from my research, it appears that the admonition that one cannot attend or give gifts appears in explanatory comments in the print edition of the St. Joseph Baltimore Catechism (I think it may be #2 in the series) but are not contained in online versions. For example, my Baltimore Catechism #1 (I still have a copy of it) contains the comment " Catholics “married” by a justice of the peace or any one but a priest are not really married at all" at the end of question 137, but the comment cannot be found in anything I searched for online (I even did a Google search for the phrase). Unfortunately, I think my copy the Catechism #2 may have been damaged some years ago in basement flooding.
So, I believe you (or anyone else interested in researching this) will either need to purchase the actual book or find a copy at a library.
W
whatevergirl
Guest
I might have to…Grazie for your efforts. :tiphat:
N
Norseman82
Guest
Nie ma za co…
- Status