Father Z: Canon 249

[JimG]

Personally I think that enough Latin familiarity just to get through a Latin Mass would be sufficient even for priests. But I think Fr. Z might argue about that.

 

[FiveLinden]

Jesus did well without Latin. And the Apostles. And Mary.

 

[thistle]

One of the problems is that Canon 249 is ignored to the extent that many seminaries do not even teach Latin anymore which is a breach of canon law.

Can. 249 The Charter of Priestly Formation is to provide that the students are not only taught their native language accurately, but are also well versed in Latin, and have a suitable knowledge of other languages which would appear to be necessary or useful for their formation or for the exercise of their pastoral ministry.

 

[Augustinian]

Personally I think that enough Latin familiarity just to get through a Latin Mass would be sufficient even for priests.

Get through a Latin Mass as the celebrant or as one of the faithful?

You really need to know a lot of Latin for the former, only a small amount for the latter

 

[Spyridon]

I sure would.

“The peace of the Lord be with you”

Et cum spiritu tuo. And with thy spirit.

I self taught myself basic Latin, it’s such an easy language to learn.

Latin is essentially the operating system our English language runs on. I think Latin should be mandatory in our public schools for maybe 2 years, say grades 11 and 12. If you don’t know basic Latin I don’t see how you could master the English language.

 

[Spyridon]

I suspect your suspicion is right.

Give me a random verse from the Vulgate and I’ll at least be able to understand the gist of it.

Ask me to go talk about the weather to a Priest in Latin however and I’ll give you a blank eyed stare.

Good point.

 

[Spyridon]

Not so sure about that.

There are compelling arguments that Jesus was quadrilingual in his humanity:

Aramaic was his mother tongue
Hebrew he was taught at the Synagogue and by his parents as a boy.
Greek he learned working with his father Joseph
Latin he picked up shortly before or after his ministry began.

You have to keep in mind 1st century Palestine was thoroughly polylingual. It was VERY common for Jews to speak both Aramaic and Greek plus understand Hebrew to a degree. It was also fairly common for Romans and Greeks in the land to be fluent in both Greek and Latin.

Even Scripture says Jesus’ charges were written out in Hebrew, Greek, and Latin. Does anybody really believe that Jesus was unable to read and understand what was written there?

 

[otjm]

Well, to your last comment, I learned my native language well before starting grade school, and continued to study it through college.

I also took two years of Latin in high school, as a translated language, and 2 in college (same, translated). My last class in Latin ended in the spring of 1966.

And I still know English far, far better than I ever knew Latin. Or for that matter, Homeric and koinae Greek, 2 years in high school.

Yes, there are plenty of words from Latin (and Greekm and a few other languages) in English, but one can become exceedingly good at English without ever having had a course in Latin. People have been doing that for a long time.

 

[otjm]

Well, if the reality is that most seminaries are not requiring Latin as an abolute necessary course, then it would seem that Rome has 3 choices:

Do something to the Seminaries to force them into line.

Ignore the matter and let the code section to remain.

Change or remove the code section.

It appears that the second choice is the one Rome is following; either out of direct choice, or because they have other fish to fry.

 

[Entwhistler]

If I had to guess I would say they have other fish to fry. However, I wonder how hard it would actually be to get the seminaries to toe the line on Latin? How controversial will one year of mandatory Latin be? You just start there and work your way to more mandatory classes later on.

 

[anon65111186]

I’m a Latin teacher and I agree, all our priests should know Latin and be able to do the mass in latin. There is no excuse, it is the language of Christ’s Church.

 

[Maximilian75]

And I would even say that taking 2 years of HS Latin gave me better grammar, and made me a better speaker and writer.

 

[thistle]

“timothyvail17h
I’m a Latin teacher and I agree, all our priests should know Latin and be able to do the mass in latin. There is no excuse, it is the language of Christ’s Church.”

Latin is the language of the Latin Church. It has never been the language of the 22 other Churches that make up the Catholic Church.

 

[anon65111186]

Latin is the language of the Latin Church. It has never been the language of the 22 other Churches that make up the Catholic Church.

The CCEO makes Latin the official language of the eastern churches, since they have no common language among them.

Therefore, Latin is the language of Christ’s Church, like I said

 

[thistle]

The eastern Churches never use and have never used Latin.

 

[Genesis315]

Not in their liturgies, etc. but the bishops still usually were fluent in it, at least prior to and during Vatican II, since it was the primary language of communication in the Church.

I don’t know what the reference is the previous poster made to the CCEO, but I don’t see anything in there about the Latin language (maybe he is referring to it having been promulgated in Latin, but that is because it is an act of governance of the chief Roman See).

 

[anon65111186]

The eastern Churches never use and have never used Latin.

Not in their liturgies, etc. but the bishops still usually were fluent in it, at least prior to and during Vatican II, since it was the primary language of communication in the Church.

Yes, that is what I’m getting at, the Latin Church, of which the Pope is the head, and the decrees which bind the Eastern Churches is in Latin.

Many Eastern Catholics latinized themselves, because they are united to the larger Latin Church, and under its authority.

They have their own liturgies and communications among themselves in their own vernaculars, so they don’t have to learn Latin to do the Mass, but if they want to read encyclicals and all Church documents which are binding on them, they should know Latin.

 

[OraLabora]

at least prior to and during Vatican II, since it was the primary language of communication in the Church.

Now it’s pretty much Italian, not Latin. Latin is still the base liturgical language and maybe for official decrees, but Italian is the working language of the Vatican.

 

[otjm]

I beg to differ with you concerning the cause of the latinization of the Eastern Rites. That was coming from pressure applied by Rome (and most evident as Eastern Rite Catholics moved from their native countries to the US). It was John Paul 2 who loudly and vigorously moved to reverse that. He made it perfectly clear that the latinization was from the outside and that those Rites needed to get back to the rich traditions they had been abandoning. It was only recently that they were able to have married clergy in the US, a tradition of those Rites that is 2,000 years old. Looking at the history of Rome “leaning” on the Rites as their clergy came to the US, one could easily suspect that Rome was terrified that the Roman rite might be influenced.

 

[anon65111186]

He made it perfectly clear that the latinization was from the outside and that those Rites needed to get back to the rich traditions they had been abandoning.

Okay, it’s perfectly likely that there were some that latinized from without, I have other sources that say some were latinized from within pretty strongly, either way they were latinized, which brought then into greater union with the Latin right, for good or for ill.