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Nun_ofthe_Above:
If I find the verse, I’ll post it.
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I know that one. Here it is:

NIV 1 Corinthians 4:15 Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.
 
Actually the KJV says:

“For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.”

And begotten is said it can mean either made lawful or made unique. So he was saying he made them lawful or unique in Christ Jesus through the gospel.
 
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Sei:
Here’s what Jesus had to say about his mother and his brethren and if any were held higher than the other in Matthew 12:

47Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
48But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

He says that whoever does the will of God His Father that they are all the same, his brother in God, sister in God, or mother. Mary is said to be the same as anyone else according to Jesus.

And here is what Jesus said when a woman tried to exalt Mary in Luke 11:

27And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.
28But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

He didn’t agree with the woman. He said “rather, blessed is the person that hears God’s word and keeps it.” He never said, “yes, she is blessed.” He said, “no, blessed is someone who hears my father’s words and keeps them.” Everyone is equal to Mary, Jesus said so himself.
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No I am sorry,but you are mistaken.Mary kept the word of God,and he was trying to tell the people that the blessedness of a person was doing Gods will,and she did that perfectly because of the grace God gave her,God Bless
 
No Jesus said the same is his brother and sister and mother. He said they are the same. I’ll say it again. He said they are the same. He did not say “my brother and sister are the same, but my mother was perfect so she is higher than you all”.
 
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Sei:
No Jesus said the same is his brother and sister and mother. He said they are the same. I’ll say it again. He said they are the same. He did not say “my brother and sister are the same, but my mother was perfect so she is higher than you all”.
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My soul glorifies the Lord;my spirit rejoices inGod My Savior;He looks upon his handmaid in her lowliness;Henceforth ALL GENERATIONS SHALL CALL ME BLESSED.The Almighty works marvels for me and Holy is his name;His mercy is from age to age on those who fear him.He puts forth His arm in strength and scatters the proud-hearted.He casts the mighty from their thrones and raises the lowly.He fills the starving with good thingsand sends the rich away empy.He protects Isreal,his servant remembering His Mercy,the mercy promised to Abraham and his sons for ever.When Mary visited Elizabeth the Holy spirit overshadowed her and what did she say?God Bless
 
I’m sure people should say she was blessed. She was blessed to be chosen to be the vessel in which Jesus came into this world. But wasn’t Abraham blessed? And Moses? She was blessed by God for what He did but that doesn’t mean she is without sin. If she is without sin then why wasn’t Abraham without sin?
 
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Sei:
I’m sure people should say she was blessed. She was blessed to be chosen to be the vessel in which Jesus came into this world. But wasn’t Abraham blessed? And Moses? She was blessed by God for what He did but that doesn’t mean she is without sin. If she is without sin then why wasn’t Abraham without sin?
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No other human gave birth to God,did they?Let’s talk about the Ark of the covenant,you couldn’t even touch it because it held the word of God,it was Holy.The word was made flesh,Mary was the living tabernacle of God:D On a common sense level, if you were going to make a very expensive perfect cake,would you use a dirty pan?If you wouldn’t do that with something as unimportant as a cake,how could you do something like that with God?God Bless
 
If Mary was that holy then why would Jesus say she was the same as the brothers and sisters in God? Under that way of thinking, then everyone is that Holy.
 
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Sei:
Actually the KJV says:

“For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.”

And begotten is said it can mean either made lawful or made unique. So he was saying he made them lawful or unique in Christ Jesus through the gospel.
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It helps to look at the verse before and then think about what Paul is saying. Here is the verse before it (in KJV):

14 I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.

Okay, so if they are his sons (children), what does that make Paul, especially since his whole point in the following verse is that although they have many tutors, they do not have many fathers (the greek word pater), but he, Paul, has begotten them. So therefore they should imitate him (next verse). This is surely a claim to some type of spritual fatherhood.

I don’t know what you mean about unique and lawful as being part of the meaning of “begotten”? This is from the root that is the word in the geneology of Matthew, you know Abraham begat Issac, and Issac begat Jacob, etc.
 
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Sei:
If Mary was that holy then why would Jesus say she was the same as the brothers and sisters in God? Under that way of thinking, then everyone is that Holy.
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Perhaps he was trying to get them to strive to do what she was doing that is to follow the commandments of God,also,he could have been protecting her humility,in revelations her humility is rewarded as promised.God is the perfect son,He would not go against His own commandments.God Bless
 
What Lisa? You didn’t answer anything. If Mary is any holier than anyone else then Jesus is going back on his words. He clearly says that his mother is the same as his brothers and sisters in God. To say that Mary is higher than anyone else is to completely negate scripture and call God a liar, and since you won’t admit to that, you dance around the topic. Explain how Mary being holier than everyone else fits into Jesus saying she isn’t, that shes the same as everyone else.

And Pug, I just said that begotten can also mean that. And since that is a letter to a church of believers he could have called them sons because he looks upon them as that, sons in christ. He’s been an apostle and is weathers so maybe he sees himself as older spiritually than them. A person older than me can call me son and not mean that he’s my dad.
 
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Sei:
What Lisa? You didn’t answer anything. If Mary is any holier than anyone else then Jesus is going back on his words. He clearly says that his mother is the same as his brothers and sisters in God. To say that Mary is higher than anyone else is to completely negate scripture and call God a liar, and since you won’t admit to that, you dance around the topic. Explain how Mary being holier than everyone else fits into Jesus saying she isn’t, that shes the same as everyone else.

And Pug, I just said that begotten can also mean that. And since that is a letter to a church of believers he could have called them sons because he looks upon them as that, sons in christ. He’s been an apostle and is weathers so maybe he sees himself as older spiritually than them. A person older than me can call me son and not mean that he’s my dad.
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Sei,start a thread in scriptures or apologetics so we don’t highjack this thread and I will act like you didn’t just insinuate that I called God a LIAR,while you ignore what Elizebeth said to Mary.God Bless
 
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Sei:
Actually since Jesus never called Mary “mother” (he called her woman) I’m sure he never called Joseph “father” either.
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Non-sequitur sir. nad HIGHLY unlikely to be right…
since both are terms of respect and since Jesus was God incarnate it stand to reason that he obeyed the 4th commandment perfectly as well.

BTW Jesus never did say that Mary was no holier than anyone else.
You’ve totally misinterpreted the passage of scripture that you’re trying to use.
 
i assume that sei did just that. however, in the meantime, i’d like to address something he said, that does relate remotely to the thread.

sei posted: ‘If Mary was that holy then why would Jesus say she was the same as the brothers and sisters in God? Under that way of thinking, then everyone is that Holy.’

this IS indeed a big question - why Jesus said that we are His brothers and sisters and mother. but why would He say that?

perhaps it has something to do with His also saying that He was making us His brothers, not just His friends. perhaps it relates to the redemption - making us into coheirs with Christ. perhaps it was bringing us ‘into the family of God’ so to speak. perhaps it points to the day when we WILL be holy, for we will be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is, and He is holy.

but i can tell you what it most certainly wasn’t - it wasn’t demeaning mary, it wasn’t disrespecting His parent. to think so is to fundamentally (no offense to you fundamentalists) misunderstand the Bible, and Jesus’s sinlessness.

we were commanded, in the 10 commandments, to honor our father and mother. Jesus didn’t come among us to break His own commandment. any statement in the NT that seems to show Him showing disrespect to mary need to be rethought. it obviously means something else - something pretty great, actually.
 
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Sei:
I’m sure people should say she was blessed. She was blessed to be chosen to be the vessel in which Jesus came into this world. But wasn’t Abraham blessed? And Moses? She was blessed by God for what He did but that doesn’t mean she is without sin. If she is without sin then why wasn’t Abraham without sin?
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Which of them was greeted by an angel with “Hail full of grace”
Mary WAS indeed holy…she was chosen by God for that special role, and since we know that Jesus is the lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world, that mean that His sacrifice was the basis of all the OT saints salvation as well as ours and Mary’s. Her salvation was more perfect because she had to be especially pure to have carried the New Covenant within her. Consider: if the Ark of the Covenant had to be purified and holy just to contain the Old Covenant (the ten commandments)…think how much more holy the vessel that carried the New Covenant has to be? I mean, Jesus WAS indeed 100% God and 100% Man all in one, so the flesh that carried Him would have to be pure. Mary’s salvation is still the result of Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross because he was the lamb slain (as I pointed out before). In the Blessed Mother’s case it was simply applied to her at the moment of her conception. In fact she prohesied that “all generations will call me blessed”. Hence we call her “Blessed Mother” and Blessed Virgin" in fulfillment of that prophesy. Do you?
 
I think everyone would be better served if Sei opened another thread since the questions/answers and the debate has become non-topical.
 
that’s what lisa4 said. and sei seems to have gone away. but the post on disrespecting parents was back on topic.

anyway, i guess we can let this thread die. think we’ve answered the question. does that cover it, deesypal?
 
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jeffreedy789:
that’s what lisa4 said. and sei seems to have gone away. but the post on disrespecting parents was back on topic.

anyway, i guess we can let this thread die. think we’ve answered the question. does that cover it, deesypal?
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Yeh, any way sei started it:p We were pulled in:eek: God Bless you guys:D
 
heh heh. he started it. do you want me to turn this thread around right now??? 🙂
 
Lisa…I thought I was the only insomniac…given that you are in Memphis and we’re in the same time zone it is 1:40 something in the morning where you are…shouldn’t you run off to bed and allow the college students to function as the designated forum insomniac???
 
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